Speaking of Hornet's Nests...

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Lol.. Please stop. You can not try to relater a baby who has no ability to do anything wiht a living breathing human being who has a mind and choses to do good and bad things every day.

That does not help your casde. I know you think it does. But it does not.

A baby can not chose to decide anything, a human can (especially since God is convictin gthem by the world. And by the spirit)

Depleted · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Hmmm, looks like you didn't choose of your free will either. It's that "just" thingy for you too. Yup! Seriously, "it just happened." How about that? God chose us before we ever considered other choices.

"Just" like Moses.

"Just" like Paul.

"Just" like God to do something like that for his peeps.

How 'bout that?

Depleted · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I was being honest there. I knew it wasn't Paul. Imagined you meant God. Never thought Moses. (I am NOT a morning person. This is as good as I get in the morning. And given we're in for Nor-easter #4 starting today, also dank and cloudy, so my mind will be like it's early morning all day. lol) I'm fluent in typos, but that's not the same thing as an expert on typos. At least I got it was a typo, thus the reason I asked, given how you stated it.

And, stop yelling at me when I'm agreeing with you! Yeesh! We already agreed that most of the Israelites walking into the wilderness weren't chosen. I already said the only ones who made it out of the wilderness were the ones chosen by God -- the younger than 20 when they started, plus Caleb and Joshua. (Possibly Aaron. I forget if Arron made it out of the wilderness.)

If we're going to argue, can we keep it to what we disagree with? Because I have no idea how to argue in agreement! (Especially since it's still morning, and a stormy day. lol)

Grandpa · Mar 20, 2018

There is a difference between talking about a "general" Salvation that seems open to all and a "personal" Salvation that causes each person to be saved.

People who believe that choice is critical to Salvation are talking about a general Salvation. They believe Salvation is open to everyone and all they have to do is make the right choices.

People who believe that God is Sovereign in Salvation are talking about personal Salvation. They believe that they had no power or understanding to make any right choices. If it weren't for God drawing them step by step they wouldn't have known what those choices even were to make them.

Its pretty easy to look at the bible and see which is fact. The Lord Jesus says we CAN'T come to Him unless the Father draws us.

Just like Depleted said, If God is Fishing for you He will land you. He's not just hoping He catches something...

Depleted · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Alot of assumptions here,. Not facts here

The world loved darkness more than the light, so they did not come to the light

John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

not only this, when the light comes, they will run from it, because

John 3: 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed

so what are these people going to do when the light come on?

walk away from it

Not walk toward it

whatever it takes to make sure his or her deeds are not exposed.

But you think they just stop in their tracts, forget what they loved, and at that moment are saved, without even repenting or calling out to God.

Yeah, Keep thinking that

Already went through this too.

Verse 21 answers.

(You're not a morning person either?)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Depleted said:

Why does he who does truth come to the light? Because he is not afraid of it exposing him, because he is NO LONGER AFRAID of the light.

The tax collector came to the light, he was no longer worried, because he had repented and KNEW his fate. He became poor in spirit. And for it, he was blessed.

John says we have been given right to be children of God, by belief in him, Paul says once a child. We are not given the spirit of fear. But of a sound mind, and we can come and call him Abba!

I have never been a morning person, but been up for 6 hours now so.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Depleted said:

Nope.. I had every oportunity to say no. I could have walked away and never asked God to show me himself again, never having come to truth, just like many in the churches who claim to know God, but we find out never knew God at all.

notuptome · Mar 20, 2018

PennEd said:

The fish was probably dried or salted to preserve it. I doubt that it was fresh fish.

Bread would be a figure of the word of God. Fish would be a figure of mans worldly desire. Israel desired more than bread in the wilderness. They wanted meat and besought Moses to prevail upon God for meat in addition to manna.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Grandpa said:

I agree with the second aspect. That if not for God showing us who he was, who we are, and what he did, we would never come to God.

But after God does this, Like Judas and others, we have to make a choice.

romans 1 says the whole world has recieved generaral revelation about God. Thus have knowledge that not only is God who he says he is, but they are judged because of sin,, The HS then comes and convicts us of our sin, convicts us of rigbhteousness, and judgments. And helps us understand the gospel. At this point, we have to make I guess you caould call it a choice.

Yes God, I trust you and want what you are offering. (Gods gets all the credit, because apart of job, there would have been no opportunity to even say yes.

No God, I do not believe you, I would rather live in my sin, thanks but no thanks. (Judas made this choice)

I disagree, He told peter to follow him and he woudl make him a fisher of men, He NEVER told peter that everyone he fished for would be caught, there qwere places they were sent to go that no one was caught, what did God say to do? Wipe the dust off their feet. Yet God sent his rod into that town

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Depleted said:

I was being honest there. I knew it wasn't Paul. Imagined you meant God. Never thought Moses. (I am NOT a morning person. This is as good as I get in the morning. And given we're in for Nor-easter #4 starting today, also dank and cloudy, so my mind will be like it's early morning all day. lol) I'm fluent in typos, but that's not the same thing as an expert on typos. At least I got it was a typo, thus the reason I asked, given how you stated it.

And, stop yelling at me when I'm agreeing with you! Yeesh! We already agreed that most of the Israelites walking into the wilderness weren't chosen. I already said the only ones who made it out of the wilderness were the ones chosen by God -- the younger than 20 when they started, plus Caleb and Joshua. (Possibly Aaron. I forget if Arron made it out of the wilderness.)

If we're going to argue, can we keep it to what we disagree with? Because I have no idea how to argue in agreement! (Especially since it's still morning, and a stormy day. lol)

Like I told angela in another thread. To much coffee!! Lol

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

notuptome said:

I see this, and it would go perfect the next day, when the people came seeking food (desire) and not what was important (bread or the word)

wow man, great insite..

Depleted · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

(Deep exhale.)

Went through this too. Why do you think I posted the Order of Salvation a couple of weeks ago? You're still doing it. You're going with Salvation is just one part of what salvation really is, and keep getting stuck on different parts of it, thus confounding yourself even more. Salvation is an umbrella word that encompasses a whole bunch of things -- predestination, election, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, and glorification.

You're under the silly assumption I haven't and don't repent, simply because I wasn't the one to decide to follow the Lord. Silly, because repentance never lead me to the Lord. Coming to the Lord lead to my repentance. Trusting him didn't come into play until I actually knew him. Knowing him was his doing, not mine. So trusting him is part of salvation, (sanctification and perseverance), but not where I was at the time of regeneration. That came after for me. AND, truthfully, it's not over for me or you. Sure we may well trust in the Lord, but assuming we're in the perseverance stage, he just keeps after us to trust him more and more and more.

First gut reaction: If you lost everything you have, house, family and health today, is your go-to reaction to trust God? I expect you'll get to trust him, but it's not the go-to reaction. He's training us to have it the go-to reaction all the time.

That it's not our first reaction, does that mean we aren't saved?

You talk about repenting and trusting as immediate reaction to being saved. Really? Really really? Have you never needed to repent or relearn trust since?

Salvation is an all encompassing umbrella word that means a whole bunch of things. Some happen so quickly we don't even see them happening. Some happened before the first time God said, "Let there be." Some happens over and over again, until God gets it sunk into us. And truthfully? After 46 years with the Lord, I'm pretty sure it doesn't sink in utterly and completely until the last stage of salvation -- glorification. And, that too, is God working it out. Certainly not me. I really stink at working out glorifying God in all things. He really needs to give me that.

Order of Salvation. A real thing! We both believe it. The only difference is in which order do we believe it. (Click the link, so you get what I'm talking about. And why should you? So you can argue effectively with me, if that works for you. Obviously, I like to argue, but as it stands now, you're stuck in a loop and that's because you aren't getting where I'm coming from. Weird part is I'm getting where you're coming from, because I used to believe like you. And super weird part is you have no idea about this, but you're slowly coming over to the same thing I think. You truly suck at being an Arminian, but that's because you're not anymore. Nor are you Reformed. You're kind of stuck somewhere between Classic Arminian and Modified Calvinist. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, click the link. lol)

Depleted · Mar 20, 2018

Depleted said:

(Deep exhale.)

Went through this too. Why do you think I posted the Order of Salvation a couple of weeks ago? You're still doing it. You're going with Salvation is just one part of what salvation really is, and keep getting stuck on different parts of it, thus confounding yourself even more. Salvation is an umbrella word that encompasses a whole bunch of things -- predestination, election, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, and glorification.

You're under the silly assumption I haven't and don't repent, simply because I wasn't the one to decide to follow the Lord. Silly, because repentance never lead me to the Lord. Coming to the Lord lead to my repentance. Trusting him didn't come into play until I actually knew him. Knowing him was his doing, not mine. So trusting him is part of salvation, (sanctification and perseverance), but not where I was at the time of regeneration. That came after for me. AND, truthfully, it's not over for me or you. Sure we may well trust in the Lord, but assuming we're in the perseverance stage, he just keeps after us to trust him more and more and more.

First gut reaction: If you lost everything you have, house, family and health today, is your go-to reaction to trust God? I expect you'll get to trust him, but it's not the go-to reaction. He's training us to have it the go-to reaction all the time.

That it's not our first reaction, does that mean we aren't saved?

You talk about repenting and trusting as immediate reaction to being saved. Really? Really really? Have you never needed to repent or relearn trust since?

Salvation is an all encompassing umbrella word that means a whole bunch of things. Some happen so quickly we don't even see them happening. Some happened before the first time God said, "Let there be." Some happens over and over again, until God gets it sunk into us. And truthfully? After 46 years with the Lord, I'm pretty sure it doesn't sink in utterly and completely until the last stage of salvation -- glorification. And, that too, is God working it out. Certainly not me. I really stink at working out glorifying God in all things. He really needs to give me that.

Order of Salvation. A real thing! We both believe it. The only difference is in which order do we believe it. (Click the link, so you get what I'm talking about. And why should you? So you can argue effectively with me, if that works for you. Obviously, I like to argue, but as it stands now, you're stuck in a loop and that's because you aren't getting where I'm coming from. Weird part is I'm getting where you're coming from, because I used to believe like you. And super weird part is you have no idea about this, but you're slowly coming over to the same thing I think. You truly suck at being an Arminian, but that's because you're not anymore. Nor are you Reformed. You're kind of stuck somewhere between Classic Arminian and Modified Calvinist. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, click the link. lol)

And I'm going to stop here, because if I keep reading I'm going to get more frustrated, or even maybe head to anger. (Where else does continual frustration lead, unless we stop ourselves and seek the Lord?) I'm not angry now. But I really do hope you'll study the order of salvation. We agree more than you realize. You're just not getting what I mean because you don't hear much about ye ole Ordo Salutis anymore. (And, thank you, Lord, for that, because we no longer talk in Latin!)

There is still plenty to argue with, so I'll let you catch up, then we can argue on even grounds. Okay?

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

Depleted said:

Probably a good idea. Because your not the only one getting angry.

I know what you think the order of salvation is, It has been established long long ago we disagree. So to continue would be like beating a dead horse.

ps. You gave me the idea you did not repent. When you claimed you never called out to God. So forgivce me,

The tax collector would have remained a tax collector if he did not repent. He repented, and what did his repentance cause him to do. Well jesus let us know. And he told us that he went home JUSTIFIED.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

By the way, You opened a thread MOCKING those who believe they were drawn by God and give God all credit for allowing them, and giving them the option to say yes.

I hope you did not think that was going to go well. It never does.

notuptome · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

I still contend that we are Arminian when we come to Christ then some become so "wise" in the scriptures that they become Calvinists.

Now there is a biblical foundation for the TULIP. The problem becomes that todays Calvinists do not teach Calvinism from the bible. They teach it from their church dogmas.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

notuptome said:

Interesting, may have to go deeper in this. I believe there were christians before calvan and arminian were ever alive.. so try not to equate christianity with either

eternally-gratefull · Mar 20, 2018

notuptome said:

Arminian - 5 points

1. Free will - I agree

2 - conditional election - I disagree the only condition is Gods foreknowledge, and that is not a condition we can fulfill.

3 - universal election - Agree, I believe Christ died for all. But only a few will be saved

4- HS can be resisted - I agree, we can resist the spirit as nopn believers (unbelief) and we (at least I) resist the spirit every day, we griebd the HS by resisting him, if we could not resist the spirit. We woudl never grieve him.

5. Falling from grace - Impossible

calvin

1. Totally depraved - agree in part. Man can do not good. (Although they can do good in a society, like give to the poor, serve people, and other things) I also believe Placing our faith in christ is not a work. It is the work of God. So to say a totally depraved person can not come to faith is a nonsensical idea in my view.

2. Unconditional election - agree, we have nothign to offer God in whcih God will say thank you, you have paid for your sin, now you may be my child

3 - limited atonement - reject. God loved the WORLD (COSMOS) he died for the WORLD, no one wil go to hell because they sinned, they will go to hell because they rejected christ (he who does not believe is condemned already) They will go to hell because they were IN ADAM.

4. Irrisistable grace- reject. Isreal was shown grace from the tim emoses returned and the whole 40 years in the wilderness, yet they resisted, Judas was showed grace, yet he resisted, these are just 2 examples)

5. Perseverance of the saints - I would not call it this, A person does not percevere and save themselved because they persevered. But they are eternally secure in Christ jesus, they can not lose salvation. Because GODS GRACE is is unending, and his love is never ending, and his promise is forever.

So I guess I am a 3 point arminian and a 2.5 point (2 if I only give .5 for perseverance the way it is worded) calvanist?

Thats why I would rather discuss the word. And not religious dogma.. trying to put people in boxes of being one way or the other just leads to confusion and misunderstanding and causes so much infighting.

notuptome · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

True but that should be sufficient to stir up the hornets nest. LOL

We identify with Christ not with Calvin or Arminius.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Stunnedbygrace · Mar 20, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Gotta say, post human got me intrigued when he mentioned no leftover fish only bread. I never noted it. Was waiting, hoping he might have something more to say on it. He apparently grabbed us all with the observation.

Speaking of Hornet's Nests...

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Grandpa

Senior Member

Depleted

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

notuptome

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Depleted

Guest

Depleted

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

notuptome

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

notuptome

Senior Member

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member