NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

[cfultz3]

my dear red...why do you want to get yourself all upset over what i'm doing?
i'm pretty much on one thread....it's about subjects you don't like, so i don't know why you want to upset yourself.

you've already broken fellowship with me. i'm fine with that.
why do you want conflict?

i do not want conflict with you.

please just put me on ignore or at least let's not talk at all. that's for the best.

okay redster?
God Bless and take care.
zone.

Zone,

Sometimes that pointy finger of his is reflective. You know what you have been delivered from and you proclaim your Savior from such with love, don't let his highness guilt you in your testimony.

 

[cfultz3]

Red33,

first you wanted to hit someone in another thread and if you did not felt conviction about it, then you wanted to do more. Now you come slapping again, you have a very angry godish attitute. Why not humble yourself.

 

[Red33]

my dear red...why do you want to get yourself all upset over what i'm doing?
i'm pretty much on one thread....it's about subjects you don't like, so i don't know why you want to upset yourself.

you've already broken fellowship with me. i'm fine with that.
why do you want conflict?

i do not want conflict with you.

please just put me on ignore or at least let's not talk at all. that's for the best.

okay redster?
God Bless and take care.
zone.

You know that the issue is always about how we speak of those in the body of Christ who have no recourse or ability to respond to our accusations and we think nothing of maligning or slandering them behind their back or even those in the grave, because we don't like what they preached or how they conducted themselves in and outside the house of God. I'll give you an example. Anyone that slanders or maligns or says even one evil thing about Billy Graham or David Wilkersen (now deceased), who have born much fruit in their ministry is a fruitcake with damaged brain cells that have been corrupted will cankered evil. If some of you don't like it, that's tough. Your off and you need to repent big-time.

 

[cfultz3]

You know that the issue is always about how we speak of those in the body of Christ who have no recourse or ability to respond to our accusations and we think nothing of maligning or slandering them behind their back or even those in the grave, because we don't like what they preached or how they conducted themselves in and outside the house of God. I'll give you an example. Anyone that slanders or maligns or says even one evil thing about Billy Graham or David Wilkersen (now deceased), who have born much fruit in their ministry is a fruitcake with damaged brain cells that have been corrupted will cankered evil. If some of you don't like it, that's tough. Your off and you need to repent big-time.

So, should we accept any gospel that comes along, even those that has the follower on the ground barking the sounds of a demon? Are we not allowed to say that such manic display of a spirit filled person is not from God?

 

[unclefester]

You know that the issue is always about how we speak of those in the body of Christ who have no recourse or ability to respond to our accusations and we think nothing of maligning or slandering them behind their back or even those in the grave, because we don't like what they preached or how they conducted themselves in and outside the house of God. I'll give you an example. Anyone that slanders or maligns or says even one evil thing about Billy Graham or David Wilkersen (now deceased), who have born much fruit in their ministry is a fruitcake with damaged brain cells that have been corrupted will cankered evil. If some of you don't like it, that's tough. Your off and you need to repent big-time.

Allow me to give you a few examples as well Red. Shouldn't you include Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Howard Rodney Browne, Jesse Duplantis, Richard Roberts, Paul Crouch, Rod Parsley, John Hagee ........ etc. etc. on your short list (I could fill a page with more names) ? And if not, ... why not ? Are they all not worthy of our "understanding and compassion" ? This topic is being discussed openly .... on a public forum. Nothing is hidden that is in plain view.

 

[Red33]

So, should we accept any gospel that comes along, even those that has the follower on the ground barking the sounds of a demon? Are we not allowed to say that such manic display of a spirit filled person is not from God?

We are to use wisdom and discretion and minister Christ in all things and we can do that without tearing someone or some group to shreads. Don't you know how to do that, if not, perhaps you should learn. For those that are wreckless and believe they are called of God to expose others, well, what can you say. No changing their mind I guess.

 

[Abiding]

Is this what you kick against because you feel your beyond all this?

Red, dont you think you can discuss? Why just provoke?

 

[cfultz3]

We are to use wisdom and discretion and minister Christ in all things and we can do that without tearing someone or some group to shreads. Don't you know how to do that, if not, perhaps you should learn. For those that are wreckless and believe they are called of God to expose others, well, what can you say. No changing their mind I guess.

So, exposing false christianity is equal to tearing and shreading? I am sure somewhere in Scripture someone stood up to false teachings and explained to those they wrote to that believing such things is not only wicked in and of it self, but that such will lead away from God. There is a time for love and there is a time for discernment and those who say they walk in the Light should know better then to walk in manic imagination. Do we tell them out of love? Yes. And if they do not listen to love, what then? Tell them out of exhortation? Yes. And if they do not listen to exhortation. then what? Shall we then tell them what awaits them? By all means are we to save from the fire.

 

[Abiding]

We are to use wisdom and discretion and minister Christ in all things and we can do that without tearing someone or some group to shreads. Don't you know how to do that, if not, perhaps you should learn. For those that are wreckless and believe they are called of God to expose others, well, what can you say. No changing their mind I guess.

Red your problem here is that noone is ripping anyone to shreds, but possibly you.
I dont know where you came of up with your rules. And although im 98% with you on everything you teach
and its a blessing to read your posts.

We have a mandate from scripture on how to deal with these subjects.
Mark them and move away. So your objection here is unbiblical. The only
grounds you have is in your judging the heart and motives of those of us
here. To that i say that is the only judgement we are forbidden to make.

 

[unclefester]

We are to use wisdom and discretion and minister Christ in all things and we can do that without tearing someone or some group to shreads. Don't you know how to do that, if not, perhaps you should learn. For those that are wreckless and believe they are called of God to expose others, well, what can you say. No changing their mind I guess.

I have no such calling Red. And I don't for one second believe that there aren't both many Pentecostals and Catholics (yup... Catholics too) whose hearts aren't right with the Lord. I simply don't believe in todays trappings of modern day tongues, apostles and prophets. And for what it's worth, I'm pretty certain that many of them themselves have issues with it as well. They're just too frightened to speak openly about it. I can understand their reservations.

 

[Abiding]

We are to use wisdom and discretion and minister Christ in all things and we can do that without tearing someone or some group to shreads. Don't you know how to do that, if not, perhaps you should learn. For those that are wreckless and believe they are called of God to expose others, well, what can you say. No changing their mind I guess.

Red could you teach me HOW? Lets do this,
Ill bring a list of groups in the church that are damaging the people.
Then you tell us what to do about it, before more are injured.

I wont accept just prayer. We have plenty of scripture that wont allow
us to turn a blind eye. But you can show us the way to deal with it OK?
That would surely add to this discussion. And we all can learn from it.OK?

 

[Abiding]

Forseeing the certain challenges in this forum i realized that if i were
to be a tad sloppy, mispell a few words, talk like im kinda uneducated
and undiciplined that i would have more credibility and acceptance.

I rekon that explains how i get so many "likes"
Zone ill keep your chair reserved.
For some reason this song comes to mind.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4I_wsyKBCA[/video]

 

[Abiding]

They got bored and tired and complained about the manna and God gave them
other food (from out of the sky) till it was coming out their noses

then things got even worst

 

[BarlyGurl]

Forseeing the certain challenges in this forum i realized that if i were
to be a tad sloppy, mispell a few words, talk like im kinda uneducated
and undiciplined that i would have more credibility and acceptance.


that Joe... telling stories outa school...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

here is what i learned from researching the spiritual gifts in post apostolic times...

in the early second century AD justin martyr wrote in his 'dialogue with trypho the jew' that healing and tongues and prophecy were common in the christian church...

in the late second century irenaeus...a student of john's student polycarp...wrote in his book 'against heresies' that many in the churches spoke in tongues and received prophecy and performed healings...

in the early third century origen wrote in his book 'against celsus' that the tongues were temporary and that they no longer happened...but he also reported that he was a witness to ongoing prophecy and healings...

in the late third century john chrysostom indicated in his 'homily on 1 corinthians 12' that tongues no longer occurred and admitted that the church's understanding of the nature of tongues had been obscured by the passage of time...chrysostom is also the first to use the term 'cessation'

in the early fourth century the church historian eusebius of caesarea...based on the writings i already mentioned and other reports that we no longer have...concluded in his 'ecclesiastical history' that the tongues had continued only through irenaeus' time...

in the mid fourth century epiphanius of salamis wrote in his anti heretical 'medicine chest' that prophecy was welcomed in the church...he argued against the montanists that the church had not rejected the spiritual gifts but only had denounced the montanists' charisma as not being authentic spiritual gifts...

in the late fourth century augustine wrote in his 'homily on 1 john' that the tongues were for the early church and were no longer present in his time...

in the early fifth century augustine wrote in his 'city of God' that miracles still occurred...but that they were not as widely reported as the earlier miracles...and he described several contemporary healings that he was aware of or even witnessed himself... most of the contemporary healings augustine tells about happened through prayer or through the sacraments...especially baptism... augustine also argued in the same work that although the miracles still happened they were no longer spiritually necessary because 'the whole world' had come to believe the gospel...

although the church fathers were fallible and often uncritical and prone to repeating hearsay...most of these post apostolic testimonies seem to reflect the widespread consensus of 'common knowledge' in the church regarding the gifts in their respective time periods...

from all of these ancient testimonies my conclusion is that the tongues continued into the late second century and then ceased... healings continued at least into the fifth century although by that time they were usually the result of prayer or sacrament...healing by direct command as in the new testament appears to have largely ceased by then... prophecy continued at least into the fourth century and it is not clear whether it ever fully ceased...

because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times

 

[Abiding]

Concentric Cessationism is what i call my position. Maybe its close to "tentative cessation" ill go look that up
to me only full cessationism or concentric cessationism(possibly tentative) make any sense in the context of the modern church and the view accepted depends largely on the understanding of the purpose of the sign gifts. And EXACTLY what they were/are by definition.

 

[BarlyGurl]

h
because of my research i take a position i call 'tentative cessationism'...i regard the ceasing of tongues and the ceasing of healing by direct command as a -historical- fact...though i don't have any -theological- reason for it being so...and consequently i am neutral on the question of whether or not these miraculous gifts could be revived and whether or not the pentecostal or charismatic movements represent such a revival in modern times

Thank you Rachel, that was very informative. Soi I am wondering if yu are saying then... you don't believe in "healing" or just not the "laying on of hands kind of healing"? You can't be neutral...sorry.you can be undecided but not neutral.

 

[GreenNnice]

Amen, rache. The Lord leads, and, He certainly leads you, from all my finite mind can gather and this is infinitely clear that, hmmm, that the Lord led then and the Lord leads now and the Lord will lead us all the way Home, of which time, we will be different then.

 

[Abiding]

Id go as far as to say if everyone was a heresy hunter they would only
amount to a Bereans who Paul commended. The activity would show you have
a concern for your soul. And in the process it would send you to scriptures
and give you a good dose of the word of God.

Has anyone noticed the main false teachers commonly teach their people twisted
versions of scripture that trains them from even being a Berean often with fear tactics
from being a hypocrite to losing your soul?

 

[Red33]

Red, dont you think you can discuss? Why just provoke?

Same old stuff, same old crap, same old spirit. You want to get sucked in and believe this stuff, go right ahead. It's your soul and you can do what you want with it, right? If you want to corrupt it, who has the right to stop you. But I don't have any discernment and have no wisdom and the Spirit of God is not alive in me. Don't listen to what I have to say because I am a hypocrite and don't know what I am talking about.

As far as those Jews in Bearea who heard Paul preached Christ from the OT scriptures, it's not what you and so many others think. Paul revealed Christ to these Bereans through the OT scriptures that they had gone over many times on their own but never came under conviction concerning Christ. It was not until the Spirit, who had prepared them to receive the word more readily and who opened their understanding through Paul's preaching, did they see Christ in those OT scriptures. Many got saved right in the synagogue through what Paul had taught them concerning Christ with those scriptures and others went home and diligently searched those scriptures to see with their eyes of understanding that Christ was preached and were also saved. This kept on happening among the Beareans on a daily basis and also among honourable women who were Greek and many were saved and not just a few.

These Bereans were not being analytical about the word and scriptures Paul preached to them, to see if these things were true or not. They had never seen Christ in the OT word of scriptures until it was revealed to them though Paul's preaching and they had to keep going over it every day until that conviction lead them to a saving knowledge of Christ. These Beareans did not 'try' the word that Paul preached to them, they received it readily (without reservation) and came under the conviction of it and were saved because of it. It is like the gospel that we are to preach, people must hear it and receive it by faith and believe it in their heart through the conviction of the Spirit. They don't go around analyzing it to see if it's true or not, they believe it and get saved by it.