Contradiction of WORDS

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pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
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I have a question for all concerning the following quote from a Campbellite that uses this chat site...

WORKS DO NOT EARN GRACE

WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE


Is this a contradiction of WORDS and or a play on WORDS?
Where is this principle found in scriptures?

Grace means UNMERITED FAVOR
so how can it be possible to earn or receive GRACE BASED UPON WORKS seeing how the very word means unmerited favor<--unearned favor?
To work for something means you EARNED IT!
Seeing by faith, a walk of faith, a work of faith, only can the branch when grafted to the vine, bare fruit! :)
Its all about walking in Spirit, not flesh, do we see, not the contradiction, but how the Father gives! :)

God bless
pickles
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Mercy is unmerited favor, not grace. Grace is the empowering presence of our Creator, Messiah in you, that enables you to be what He's called you to be.

2 Cor 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Just as I am without one plea
But that thy blood was shed for me
And that thou bidst me come to thee
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am and waiting not
To rid my sould of one dark blot
To thee whose blood can cleanse each spot
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am thou wilt receive
Wilt welcome, pardon,cleanse, relieve;
Because thy promise I believe
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Because thy promise I believe = faith.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

Just as I am.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
Just as I am without one plea
But that thy blood was shed for me
And that thou bidst me come to thee
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am and waiting no


To rid my sould of one dark blot
To thee whose blood can cleanse each spot
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am thou wilt receive
Wilt welcome, pardon,cleanse, relieve;
Because thy promise I believe
O, Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Because thy promise I believe = faith.

By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

Just as I am.
======================================================================

peacefulbeliever,

share=moment,

as I began to sing this old, old hymn from the years of my youth,
to my husband, the tears began to flow, but I couldn't stop, for they are such a
part of my soul.

thank you sweetheart:)
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Jesus died for our sins so that we may have eternal life thru Him but His death did not make us sinless. We are still sinners.
were you not purged from sins?...were you not forgiven your sins? Is Christ's blood not good enough to cleanse you of all unrighteousness....is his promise to save you from sin not good enough...Did he not say if you confess he will forgive your sins...Did he not say he will remember your sins no more....If you were a sinner and God save you from sins but you are still a sinner...what did he really do if you are still the same? When Jesus forgave someone of their sins did he not say to them ......go and sin no more...(1) would Jesus ask a man to do that which is impossible (2)if the man was forgiven his sins, was he still in sin or was he without sins?
 
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How is it crazy? Can God do anything that is against His character? Can God create something He cannot control? Does God have any equal? So I guess according to you God has the free will to lie, go against His character or create something that He cannot control. God is Sovereign and in His Sovereignty He has limited Himself to that Sovereignty. Is that hard to understand? And beside "free" and "will" are never I the same sentence together anywhere in the Bible as "free will" for man or God.
did you not read what I wrote? there is no need for free and will to be together since free is the exercising of ones will...that is why ...he who has not Christ is in bondage to sin .....and he who is in Christ is free from the bondage of sin...so to do good or evil becomes a choice.....freedom is the ability to do what we ought to do....we ought to do good
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Elin said:
No, faith is the means of salvation--through grace by faith (Eph 2:8-9)--while
works are the result of salvation.

It's: gift of faith--->salvation--->works of faith.

If good works are evidence for genuine faith, then the works themselves must be genuine.
If the works are genuine, then they must be beneficial to our salvation.
Based on what? Your human reasoning and wisdom?

'Cause it's not based on the wisdom of God in the Scriptures.

The order in Scripture is in my post above.

Salvation precedes the obedience of faith which sanctifies through the Holy Spirit.
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Mercy is unmerited favor, not grace.
Nope. . .

Mercy is cancelling one's punishment.

Grace is unmerited favor, which covers the whole Christian life, from rebirth to "presence with the Lord."
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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were you not purged from sins?...were you not forgiven your sins? Is Christ's blood not good enough to cleanse you of all unrighteousness....is his promise to save you from sin not good enough...Did he not say if you confess he will forgive your sins...Did he not say he will remember your sins no more....
If you were a sinner and God save you from sins but you are still a sinner...what did he really do if you are still the same? When Jesus forgave someone of their sins did he not say to them ......go and sin no more...(1) would Jesus ask a man to do that which is impossible (2)if the man was forgiven his sins, was he still in sin or was he without sins?
In what sense are you using the word "sinner."

We use it of one who sins, even after salvation (1Jn 1:8-10).

Salvation from sin means salvation from the punishment of sin, not that the saved sin no more
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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did you not read what I wrote? there is no need for free and will to be together since free is the exercising of ones will...that is why ...he who has not Christ is in bondage to sin .....and he who is in Christ is free from the bondage of sin...so to do good or evil becomes a choice.....
freedom is the ability to do what we ought to do....we ought to do good
Actually, freedom, philosophically, is the power to make any moral choice.

Biblically, freedom is the power to make choices accordingly as one wishes, with no external constraint or outside force.

They are not the same thing.
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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Mercy is unmerited favor, not grace. Grace is the empowering presence of our Creator, Messiah in you, that enables you to be what He's called you to be.

2 Cor 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
Amen
God has the power to provide you with every gracious gift in abundance, so that always in every way you will have all you need yourselves and be able to provide abundantly for every good cause.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

(Romans 5:17)

1 Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne ofgrace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
I need to get a new Bible first. . .Romans is thread bare in mine.
All that and still didn't get it?
I get the virulent spirit of antichrist presenting itself simply as one who has doubts about the gospel because of the influence of a Jewish friend.
Word to the wise: it's not a supposed "Jewish friend" who is doing the influencing.

"even now, many anti-Christs have come." (1Jn 2:18)

"Who is the liar? It is the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
Such a man is the anti-Christ--he denies the Father and the Son."
(1Jn 2:22)

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh
have gone into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the anti-Christ."
(2Jn 7)

This is what Jesus said about himself.

You get to decide whether you believe him or not:

  • He came from heaven (Jn 3;13, 6:38, 42, 62)
  • and was sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28)
  • to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28, Jn 10:11),
  • with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
  • to conquer Satan (Jn 12:31; Lk 10:18; Mk 1:23-26, 5:6-13),
  • to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10, Lk 9:35, 10:16),
  • and to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48, Mt 25:31-33),
  • as the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6; Ac 4:12) - excludes all other ways,
  • the source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
  • the decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3:18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25),
  • possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22, Jn 13:3, 13),
  • equal with God (Jn 5:18, 8:19, 12:44-45, 14:7-9, 16:15, 17:10); i.e., doing what God does (Jn 5:19)
    • as the Father works, so the Son works (miracles) - (Jn 5:17)
    • as the Father gives life, so the Son gives life (Jn 5:21)
    • as the Father is Judge, so the Son is Judge (Jn 5:22)
    • as the Father is to be honored, so the Son is to be honored (Jn 5:23)
    • as the Father has (eternal) life in himself, so the Son has (eternal) life in himself (Jn 5:26)
    • as the Father sends with authority and power, so the Son sends with authority and power (Jn 20:21)
    • as the Father confers the kingdom, so the Son confers the kingdom (Lk 22:29)
    • as the Father is Lawgiver, so the Son is Lawgiver (Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27, chp 23)
  • empowering the apostles to speak for him, as well as for God (Lk 10:16, Jn 13:20)
  • and to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15, Lk 24:48-49).
And remember, Jesus said he was speaking exactly what God told him to say
when he made all these claims about himself (Jn 12:49).
And finally, his name is Emmanuel which is "God with us." (Mt 1:23)
Jesus is saying in these staggering claims that he is no less than God.

And that is precisely the way the Jews (who were there) understood him
(Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59; 19:7), which is why they had him killed.

 
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Mar 28, 2014
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Based on what? Your human reasoning and wisdom?

'Cause it's not based on the wisdom of God in the Scriptures.

The order in Scripture is in my post above.

Salvation precedes the obedience of faith which sanctifies through the Holy Spirit.
how does salvation precede obedience of faith...we are saved by grace through faith..... the grace of God brings us to repentance.......it is through the faith that God gives us we enter into his Grace...
Are we saved before we repent...if so then there is no need to repent...since we are already saved....
repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins....
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Elin said:
No, faith is the means of salvation--through grace by faith (Eph 2:8-9)--while
works are the result of salvation.

It's: gift of faith--->salvation--->works of faith.


Based on what? Your human reasoning and wisdom?

'Cause it's not based on the wisdom of God in the Scriptures.

The order in Scripture is in my post above.

Salvation precedes the obedience of faith which sanctifies through the Holy Spirit.
how does salvation precede obedience of faith...we are saved by grace through faith..... the grace of God brings us to repentance.......it is through the faith that God gives us we enter into his Grace...
Are we saved before we repent...if so then there is no need to repent...since we are already saved....
repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins....
There are no works of faith before repentance.

Repentance is that mighty change of heart and mind in turning from unbelief to belief
, which is faith.
Repentance and faith are inseparably linked.
Do not confuse repentance (turning) with godly sorrow.

Upon turning to belief in Jesus Christ, God justifies the sinner, declares him "not guilty,"
in rightwise standing before him,
which saves the sinner from God's wrath on his guilt at the final judgment.

Justification is salvation.
 
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Mar 28, 2014
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There are no works of faith before repentance.

Repentance is that mighty change of heart and mind in turning from unbelief to belief
, which is faith.
Repentance and faith are inseparably linked.
Do not confuse repentance (turning) with godly sorrow.

Upon turning to belief in Jesus Christ, God justifies the sinner, declares him "not guilty,"
in rightwise standing before him,
which saves the sinner from God's wrath on his guilt at the final judgment.

Justification is salvation.
it is you who said salvation precede obedience of faith.....but one must obey the command to repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins...and you shall receive the gift of the HS....which we believe is being born of water and of the spirit...and thus entrance into the kingdom of God.....

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: ...
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
FAITH / BELIEF ALONE SAVES
over & over in scripture.
Faith plus NADA on the savee's part.

[No Works, No WATER]

What MUST I DO TO BE SAVED? . . .
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved!
The only MUST-I-DO is to trust the Savior.

Do I need to quote John 3:16 for you?
Whosoever believes; that rules out any necessary additions.

[No Works, No WATER]

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

[No Works, No WATER]

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[No Works, No WATER]
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

[No Works, No WATER]

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

[No Works, No WATER]
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

[No Works, No WATER]

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

[No Works, No WATER]
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

[No Works, No WATER]
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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it is you who said salvation precede obedience of faith.....
but one must obey the command to repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins...and you shall receive the gift of the HS....which we believe is being born of water and of the spirit...and thus entrance into the kingdom of God.....
To command repentance is to command one to turn from unbelief in Jesus Christ to belief in Jesus Christ, which is what Peter was telling these Jews who crucified Jesus (Ac 2:36).

Baptism, in the NT, corresponds to circumcision in the OT (Col 2:11-12).
Circumcision was the sign of inclusion in the Abrahamic covenant, and
baptism is a sign of one's inclusion in the new covenant.

But neither physical circumcision nor physical baptism saves.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Faith/Belief is the only MUST-I-DO for salvation.
Over & over again, scripture offers salvation where man's only part is to believe/have faith/trust Christ.
Works are ruled out by Ephesians 2; also they are never mentioned as saving.
Now does anyone have something that man should do which is
neither faith,
nor works?
Faith is ruled in; works are ruled out.
What else should a man do which is neither faith nor a work?
Whatever,
Faith alone saves over & over in the Bible. There is too much evidence for one post.

What a tragedy for unbelievers who trust in their own good works to go on claiming that works save. It is tragic because such heretics have no good works, even if they imagine that they do. They cannot accept that all their righteousnesses are as filthy rags. In stubborn pride men cling to the delusion that their works commend their righteousness.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

[No Works, NO WATER]
 
Mar 28, 2014
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To command repentance is to command one to turn from unbelief in Jesus Christ to belief in Jesus Christ, which is what Peter was telling these Jews who crucified Jesus (Ac 2:36).

Baptism, in the NT, corresponds to circumcision in the OT (Col 2:11-12).
Circumcision was the sign of inclusion in the Abrahamic covenant, and
baptism is a sign of one's inclusion in the new covenant.

But neither physical circumcision nor physical baptism saves.
I see so as it was with being circumcised so it is with being baptised...mmmmm
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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I see so as it was with being circumcised so it is with being baptised...mmmmm
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised,
that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Do you find that command in the NT?

If not, we are not authorized to believe it.

Signs can operate differently in the OT and NT.

John says Jesus miracles are signs.
And John is using another meaning.
 
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