Contradiction of WORDS

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

P.S.:

Signs can operate differently in the OT and NT.
They can be efficacious, as in OT circumcision,
and inefficacious, as in NT baptism.

John says Jesus' miracles are signs, and he is using an entirely different meaning of the word
than is used in OT circumcision or the sacrifices, and in NT baptism.

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Atwood said:

Faith/Belief is the only MUST-I-DO for salvation.
Over & over again, scripture offers salvation where man's only part is to believe/have faith/trust Christ.
Works are ruled out by Ephesians 2; also they are never mentioned as saving.
Now does anyone have something that man should do which is
neither faith,
nor works?
Faith is ruled in; works are ruled out.
What else should a man do which is neither faith nor a work?
Whatever,
Faith alone saves over & over in the Bible. There is too much evidence for one post.

What a tragedy for unbelievers who trust in their own good works to go on claiming that works save. It is tragic because such heretics have no good works, even if they imagine that they do. They cannot accept that all their righteousnesses are as filthy rags. In stubborn pride men cling to the delusion that their works commend their righteousness.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

[No Works, NO WATER]

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

[No Works, NO WATER]

thank you very much for not posting a mile long response...because they all say the same thing....you don't believe...if you believed him you would do all that he says to do....but you choose what you want to do

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

Did I say that it is a command for you to obey?...you are the one who said

those who were not circumcised in the OT were cut off from the people because he broke God's covenant...and I posted.........

I see so as it was with being circumcised so it is with being baptised...mmmmm
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised,
that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

now you are off on a tangent about signs and miracles....and what one is authorized to believe...are you wrong in your comparison of circumcision and baptism?

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

sister you are the one who said they were signs of inclusion....if you want to take back your statement do so ....don't tell me they mean nothing now...you seem confused...

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes, they are signs of inclusion.

But signs do not save.

Only if Col 2:11-12 are wrong.

peacefulbeliever · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

Agree - even saying it this way - Mercy is God withholding punishment which we deserve. Grace is God's favor in your life now which we do not deserve.

. .My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. . . . .

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

and since Col 2:11-12 is not wrong...then we are united with Christ in baptism...so it is not a sign or symbol but something happens at baptism through faith in the operation of God...this is why the nay sayers will tell you there is no mention of water here so it is spiritual baptism...
[h=1][/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

How is it I agree with you on this....?

jdbear · Oct 5, 2014

I think my friend is saved.

And Jews can learn this from their Torah.

It does. So what I'm asking you dear sis is this:
"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Is.53:6
Does this really prove our sins were "transfered onto Jesus"? (We've been steeped in this belief.)
or...
Does it really mean that all our sins became Jesus burden when he came here to teach us about God? (Don't dismiss this view outright.)

OT doctrine mirrors NT doctrine. God does not change where His word is concerned. Therefore, if either testament violates the other, something is wrong. What we have now come to believe may not be completely correct. The Jewish religious leaders of Jesus day (and before Him) formed doctrines. Jesus corrected them. Do you think centuries of Christian dogma is immune from error?

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth and they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
Lk.1:5-6
"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous....BUT sinners to repentance." Mt.9:13
Jesus meant that He didn't come to call people like Zacariah and Elizabeth, because they were sinners who had already repented.

True. And what "saves" a sinner? Isn't it faith in God, which works repentance?
"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Mic.6:8

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes, for those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, baptism is a sign of their inclusion in the new covenant.

For those who are not saved, but are baptized, there is no inclusion in the new covenant, even though they are baptized.

It was the same with the Abrahamic covenant.
If they did not believe in the promise to Abraham, circumcision did not place them in the covenant as the people of God.

Only spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism (in faith) are effective for the covenants.

jdbear · Oct 5, 2014

And psychomom, I've read the NT many times and understand the point of view I've held for years.

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

A sinner is one who practise sin...the saved should not continue in sin....when we repent of our sins we are also telling God we will sin no more...we sometimes sin in ignorance or by deception omission and error but we have no business doing it wilfully...we now have the power to say no to sin... that is why God call us saints and not sinners anymore...

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Elin said:

How is it I agree with you on this....?

I give up. . .how?

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

jdbear said:

Then I guess it's time to follow her suggestion regarding Leviticus, found here.

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Do you mean on a habitual basis?
That would be a false Christian.

Because true Christians do sin (1Jn 1:8-10), but not as a habitual way of life.

JesusIsAll · Oct 5, 2014

Romans 7 clarifies all these issues, perfectly, for those of you with eyes to see and ears to hear.

JesusIsAll · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

People touting the Ten Commandments are, actually, so fast and loose, as Christianity is much more strict, goes to sin of thought and intent being the same as sin committed, anything not loving of God and neighbor sin. Nobody, dwelling in the flesh, can please God, absent faith, all our righteousness filthy rags to our absolutely Holy God. Anybody on a high horse of self righteousness is seriously deluded.

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

you say it is a sign ...that is the part I disagree with

not clear since we are baptised into Christ...unless they are not baptised into Christ which means they did not believe

not clear since the servants and stranger in the house although not being Israelites were to be circumcised... and if they were not circumcised they were cut of from the people because they broke God's covenant..so that was not a matter of believing but of obeying....

as stated in Col 2 it is clear the practical application is connected to the spiritual....

As with Christ God uses baptism as the point of contact...not as a sign or symbol but the power of God working with our faith...

newbirth · Oct 5, 2014

Elin said:

It does not have to be habitual it can also be knowingly....not saying any is false or true because Christ died for all and who knows they can turn to God and obey the truth...and I become a castaway God forbid....It is a fearful thing to fall into the hande of the living God....

Elin · Oct 5, 2014

newbirth said:

Review Col 1:11-12.

Yes, I was not clear on that point all the way through my post.

Those who are baptized in unbelief are not saved and are not actually included in the new covenant.

Yes, everyone in the house was considered a man's personal household.
And external non-compliance to circumcision brought death.

External compliance to circumcision placed all under the provision and protection of God's people.
But it was only the internal compliance of faith which actually saved them.

Only through faith.

If there is no faith, there is no spiritual application.

That is not NT language and has no meaning in the NT.

If by that you mean God effectively places in the new covenant those who believe, then yes.

So, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant,
and baptism is the sign of the new covenant (Col 1:11-12).

Contradiction of WORDS

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