To comfort those who speak in tongues

[KennethC]

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:

Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."


Cessationism is ridiculous.
someone could say "Crocodiles ceased with the ice age"
All I need is one crocodile to destroy that out and out lie.

Why pray for one sick person if healing is on some weak,enemic level with the cessationists other mockery of God's power.

I believe that tongues still exist, but you should have used a better source then Augustine because he was one of the first one's who went astray to false teaching.

He was influenced by outside sources and in turn started his eternal security doctrine that is full of errors, as he stated that falling away and apostasy both are impossible. Both however the bible clearly says will and does happen, and Augustine was one of the founding members of the RCC !!!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Cessationism is ridiculous.
someone could say "Crocodiles ceased with the ice age"
All I need is one crocodile to destroy that out and out lie.

The difference being, crocodiles obviously didn't disappear in the ice age because we have them today. With tongues, hands-on healing, knowledge/prophecy/"word of faith" or whatever else you want to call it, all we have to do is see the methodology by which they are "practiced" today and compare that methodology to Scripture to see that those "gifts in evidence" today are not the biblically described gifts. There is your "absence of crocodiles" as proof.

Why pray for one sick person if healing is on some weak,enemic level with the cessationists other mockery of God's power.

Right there is your problem. All James said for us to do for the sick is pray for them, call the elders, anoint them with oil and let God do the work! Which I assure you, He will, though you may not like the way He heals. You say, "If you aren't healed, it because your faith is weak." I say, "You will be healed, but don't let preconceived notions about how you will be healed get in the way of your faith."

Sometimes death, with the saint being at home with the Lord, is the healing. Sometimes, life confined to a wheelchair opens up an entirely new vista of ministry opportunities you never considered before. Think Joni Erickson Tada.

Your theology doesn't all for that.

 

[Mec99]

There is nothing wrong with having the Gifts of the Spirits. What is wrong is putting one of the Gifts above all the other Gifts. I have been in Churches that claim you cannot have received Salvation if you DO NOT speak in tongues.

Why do people insist others have the Gift of Tongues?

I do NOT have the Gift of Tongues and do not want the Gift of Tongues!

I have the Gift of "discerning of spirits", which in my opinion is better than the Gift of Tongues. I also have other Gifts but Tongues is not one of them.

So why are you peoples arguing about such a small Gift as Tongues? Tongues does nothing to bring people to God. Pray for and ask for greater Gifts from the Spirit.

The Gift of Word of Wisdom and the Gift of Word of Knowledge is what we should be seeking for, not Tongues. By these Gifts we can bring the Gospel of Salvation to the World.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

You may have done extensive study, however, your "knowledge" and "understanding" on it is almost nil, and you prove this by such comments as "speaking in tongues is not a sin, just pointless!"

So once again I suggest you go and do the appropriate study on the gifts of the Spirit (as listed in 1Cor 12v7-11) for you are certainly spiritually myopic in their regards and operations!

The above is my opinion, you can either like or lump it!

You would be much more convincing by showing much more love. Is this how a brother in Christ talks to another? Have a nice life. God bless.

 

[popeye]

[video=youtube;H8GjMCtnWK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8GjMCtnWK4[/video]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

[video=youtube;H8GjMCtnWK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8GjMCtnWK4[/video]

Stone teaches that divine physical healings are normative for Christians.

Stone appears to argue that if one takes daily communion that God will guarantee healing.

Stone also propagates an erroneous deliverance model of spiritual warfare, teaching believers that harbor unforgiveness will be delivered over to a demon for torment.

Stone claims that Christians can be subject to generational curses.

Stone endorses the "Bible Codes."

Yeah, he's a real great "expert witness" to prove your point, he surely is.

Enjoy your life, Popeye. God bless.

 

[posthuman]

2 Tim 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
This scripture is referring to many of the good things gifted by the Lord to His children. But one thing we know for sure is that to stir up the gift of God in us includes the gift of tongues.

i should preface; i'm not speaking from a cessationist point of view.

but it's a pretty big stretch IMO to think that 2 Timothy 1:6 is in any way at all talking about tongues. no where in the context of the epistle - or even in the 1st epistle to Timothy - is speaking in tongues even hinted at. Paul is instructing this man about organizing the ministry of the local body of believers, about godliness, about holding firm to sound doctrine & giving no quarter to false teaching.

i understand how this is meant as an example, and if it is to draw a parallel, fine,
but i just wanted to voice my agreement with the others who say there's not any immediate association with tongues here. the gift that He means for Timothy to "fan the flames of" is the Holy Spirit itself, and we can assume by the context & content of these letters, along with other Biblical and historical proofs, that Timothy had by this Spirit a gift for pastoral leadership & teaching.

 

[convallaria]

i should preface; i'm not speaking from a cessationist point of view.

but it's a pretty big stretch IMO to think that 2 Timothy 1:6 is in any way at all talking about tongues. no where in the context of the epistle - or even in the 1st epistle to Timothy - is speaking in tongues even hinted at. Paul is instructing this man about organizing the ministry of the local body of believers, about godliness, about holding firm to sound doctrine & giving no quarter to false teaching.

i understand how this is meant as an example, and if it is to draw a parallel, fine,
but i just wanted to voice my agreement with the others who say there's not any immediate association with tongues here. the gift that He means for Timothy to "fan the flames of" is the Holy Spirit itself, and we can assume by the context & content of these letters, along with other Biblical and historical proofs, that Timothy had by this Spirit a gift for pastoral leadership & teaching.

It is only a big stretch from a cessationist's point of view, or if you are one who has not personally experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit as they did at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out.

When the apostles laid hands on believers there are many accounts that agree they spoke with tongues and prophesied, and this is what the scripture I posted refers to principally.

Your second paragraph shows me that you view the Holy Spirit as an "it"....so it is obvious that you see Him as a common noun, and that being a Christian you therefore have received "it". I can't help but see that as offensive to God, except that you are doing it so some extent innocently in ignorance.

If you can stretch yourself to embrace a sounder level of doctrine than where you are at the moment, read the Gospel of John chapters 14, 15 and 16 where you can see that the Holy Spirit is a "HE". He is also God, since He can be blasphemed. So when we receive Him, He also gives us gifts and callings so that we know we have received Him, and can function in the body of Christ spiritually. One of the gifts is tongues as above, but as I have said before over and over, there are others, as follows:
1 Cor 12:
Vs 1
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.....


.....to Vs 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

I see that all these gifts are still gifts even if they are not active, and that is why what we have received from the Holy Spirit, we must stir up and use, so that every man profits from it, starting with ourselves.

We must face the fact that there is no ministry to the body without the Holy Spirit. The flesh, including the religious flesh, profits nothing. The latter is what we are seeing largely in the discussions, evident by the fact that those of us who have received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, including the gift of tongues and/or the other gifts mentioned in the above scripture are all in agreement.

It is an exciting thing to know that God has not changed:He is still ready to bless you and to gift you and to empower and use you. Please don't be deceived by those who disguise their unbelief with cessationism, trying to make the true servants of God look like devil worshippers. They will reap their reward in full.

 

[posthuman]

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

but have a look at the full text of 1 & 2 Timothy.
where is Paul instructing and encouraging him on the use of tongues?
but on the use of wisdom and of knowledge, and faith.

the connection here - the only connection - is that it is the same Spirit who gives all the gifts. i don't disagree. so it's just as appropriate to say that 2 Timothy 1:6 is about raising people from the dead or multiplying loaves & fishes.

if speaking in tongues is the ember, it should be fed with sound doctrine, and fanned into the full flame of the greater gifts of wisdom & faith in the knowledge of God -- the point shouldn't be to multiply tongues, but to grow into a more perfect likeness of Him.

What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you — guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
(2 Timothy 1:13-14)​

what is this good deposit, and that thing that Timothy heard from Paul?
miraculous signs? or the truth of the gospel, kept in faith, manifested in holiness and wisdom?

being miraculously fed fish & bread by Christ is one thing -- but sticking around to hear His teaching is another, and clinging to His message, not just to the lunch He provided, is another, and better thing

 

[ember]

Viligant_Warrior;2239460]You man not think so, but the context is what the context is, and making it anything other than salvation is a poor exegesis of the passage.

Honestly, you disagree with 22 translations (and there are more) and Strong's online and various commentaries and tell me that anything other than salvation is poor exegesis? Gotta shake my head on that one

At any rate, Paul told Timothy to stir up the gift in him...obviously did not mean salvation..could only have meant a gift imparted to him by the laying on of hands...a 'spiritual gift'..Just so we are clear, I would not ever let ANYONE lay hands on me to impart anything.

The word in Romans 11:29, is carisma (charisma), not "charismata," which does not appear in the Greek from which the New Testament is translated. Nor is there such a word in the King James or NASB Strong's lexicon. If you are claming in your above statement that you found this in Strong's, it would have to classify that as questionable, and in fact the link you provided identifies the source at the "Englishman's Concordance." It lists the Strong's number as 5486. That is, in fact, carisma (charisma), not "charismata." I'll leave the mystery as to how the Englishman's Concordance manages to add "ατα" to the word to someone who cares.

Look. I copy pasted that directly from the Strongs because YOU mentionned Strongs...EVERY Bible says gifts...so I guess we will have to stare at each other over the fence here...or maybe just go do some yardwork while casting furtive glances haha

Now, it may or may not matter to you, but the tone of your post earlier today seemed petulant and piquish to me, and I would ask you as a sister in Christ to consider how you've expressed yourself.

did it t now? because YOUR post to me seemed condescending and belittling with insult added for good measure.

You may not have noticed that because you think you are correct on this subject...but that is how you came across and frankly, still appear to come across...and not just to me, considering how others in this thread are responding to you

You and I can disagree on this subject and still be brother and sister, but it seems to me you don't like my expressing opinions that "step on your toes," so to speak, even though I haven't addressed anything but what I considered an "olive branch" post to you. If that be the case, then perhaps we'd best just ignore one another. Your call.

Oh my lands...you could just as soon be talking about yourself...you stick your opinion in the middle of a thread and seem to think it is the ONLY and FINAL word here...I think, you might need to get over yourself a little bit there

I'm not into ignoring, even after this post, so if you are fine to go on so am I...maybe put the smokin pistols away and just call it a draw. I can do that. Can you?

 

[ember]

What is going on here? Who are we to judge the personal experiences someone has with the Holy Spirit - how He uses that person - what gifts and understanding He gives them?

It doesn't matter what you understand the scriptures to say; they are given a different slant to someone else. Allow for that, and trust that the Holy Spirit has promised to lead all those in Christ into truth as they are open to it. I'm saddened by the teachings that close off so much of the Holy Spirit's manifestations and personal enrichment in the way we communicate with God.

These are spiritual matters and not understood with the mind as some like to think they are...but you know that

Even so, even the OT says we should not lean on our own understanding

I don't know...is it harder to believe in Someone you have never seen, who lived over 2000 years ago, said He was the Son of God, was killed and came back to life or believe the witness and testimony of those who are alive in Christ today and testify to the veracity of the Word and that God has not changed

The mind of mankind cannot accept the things of God no matter how much they apply themselves to study it

Personally, I find my mind works better the more I stay attuned to the Spirit of God within us!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Viligant_Warrior;2239460]Look. I copy pasted that directly from the Strongs because YOU mentionned Strongs...EVERY Bible says gifts...so I guess we will have to stare at each other over the fence here...or maybe just go do some yardwork while casting furtive glances haha

You did not use Strong's! How much plainer do I have to make it? How about I post a screen shot of the page your link brings up?



There. You you see that? "Englishman's Concordance." It claims this Strong's number is χαρίσματα (charismata) but that's incorrect. It is carisma (charisma), it is singular in the Greek, and can only by rendered as a plural when used with an infinitive in the Greek.

So you can harp and whine all you want about how I "disagree with 22 versions" but the fact of the matter is that, nearly 800 years ago, the Douay-Rhiems incorrectly translated the word in Romans 11:29 as a plural in Old English and every translation since has done the same. Why? Who knows? Tradition, perhaps, but it is a misunderstanding of Paul's usage.

Look at the context.

Romans 11, NASB
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -so * that you will not be wise in your own estimation -that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

You want to use a verse that has absolutely nothing to do with any gift of God but salvation to justify your tongues fetish. It clearly is not, and you deliberately abuse and misuse God's word to rationalize a practice that, regardless of whether it is for today or not, cannot be biblically supported in it's execution today. What you and other do with it is exactly the same form of practice that Paul condemned in Corinth!

Before I proceed to ignore you forever, which will probably make you ecstatic, is would ask you, two things:

1. It is obvious from that screen shot I took of your reference material that it says, in big bold letters, "Englishman's Concordance." How is it you continue to insist you used Strong's?

2. How do you explain that you also ignore my point that this ...

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"] Strong's Number: 5486[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"] Browse Lexicon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]carisma[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (5483)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Charisma[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]9:402,1298[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]khar'-is-mah [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Neuter [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

1. a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2. the gift of divine grace
3. the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue
4. the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith
5. grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"] NAS Word Usage - Total: 17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]favor 1, free gift 3, gift 5, gifts 7, spiritual gift 1

... is Strong's #5486 as defined by Thayer and Smith -- not "charismata (which, yet again, does not appear in the Greek text of the New Testament anywhere) but carisma (charisma)? Notice, please, that it is translated "spiritual gift" only once throughout the New Testament -- and not in this verse.

I'm done here. You are welcome to your misbegotten practice, and thank the Lord I don't have to read you whine about it anymore.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[notuptome]

Reckless application of God's word,sir.

She is 100% right.
The HS was imparted,and still is by the laying on of hands.

So do I draw from that the Holy Spirit can only save me if someone lays hands on me?

Who laid hands on Paul on the road to Emmaus?

Reckless application of the word of God indeed.

More spirit of Babylon.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[atwhatcost]

Pffft! This was never about comforting those who speak in tongues. They get their comfort from God. All believers understand that. This was about you attacking those who don't speak in tongues. Get real!

And your new wine-skin is the same make and model as the world's wine-skin. Your wine is vinegar.

(This teddy bear has teeth.)

Conv, it has just been brought to my attention I was absolutely wrong here.

Yup! He was right! I was absolutely wrong here. We just had a string of "if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved" threads recently, so I assumed you were jumping on the band wagon.

I was wrong. Please forgive me.

 

[atwhatcost]

There is nothing wrong with having the Gifts of the Spirits. What is wrong is putting one of the Gifts above all the other Gifts. I have been in Churches that claim you cannot have received Salvation if you DO NOT speak in tongues.

Why do people insist others have the Gift of Tongues?

I do NOT have the Gift of Tongues and do not want the Gift of Tongues!

I have the Gift of "discerning of spirits", which in my opinion is better than the Gift of Tongues. I also have other Gifts but Tongues is not one of them.

So why are you peoples arguing about such a small Gift as Tongues? Tongues does nothing to bring people to God. Pray for and ask for greater Gifts from the Spirit.

The Gift of Word of Wisdom and the Gift of Word of Knowledge is what we should be seeking for, not Tongues. By these Gifts we can bring the Gospel of Salvation to the World.

If you believe the small makes something less to God, then I have problems believing you are gifted in discernment. God has given me only the small gifts, and I am grateful for them all.




















(And, if you think I'm talking about tongues, I'm not, also leaving me to wonder about your discernment. )

 

[atwhatcost]

So do I draw from that the Holy Spirit can only save me if someone lays hands on me?

Who laid hands on Paul on the road to Emmaus?

Reckless application of the word of God indeed.

More spirit of Babylon.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus.

(I don't disagree with your point, but that argument really didn't work. lol)

 

[notuptome]

I always wonder about those who go about telling everyone what gifts they have. Seems to me if you got them they will be obvious and if not it will be obvious as well.

It is Babylonian to go about proclaiming about self instead of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Splagna]

There. You you see that? "Englishman's Concordance." It claims this Strong's number is χαρίσματα (charismata) but that's incorrect. It is carisma (charisma), it is singular in the Greek, and can only by rendered as a plural when used with an infinitive in the Greek.

So you can harp and whine all you want about how I "disagree with 22 versions" but the fact of the matter is that, nearly 800 years ago, the Douay-Rhiems incorrectly translated the word in Romans 11:29 as a plural in Old English and every translation since has done the same. Why? Who knows? Tradition, perhaps, but it is a misunderstanding of Paul's usage.[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 120, bgcolor: #ECD8A5, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I don't particularly have a dog in this hunt, but it bugs me when I see someone arrogantly misuse the Greek. Miss ember's "harping and whining" is 100% correct. χαρίσματα is an AccusativePlural Neuter noun. And I can find the plural use of χάρισμα\charisma 6x in the NT and all without the infinitive. The 22 versions you disagree with are right and you are wrong.

Furthermore, χαρίσματα in 11:29 most likely refers to more than strictly salvation. In Romans 9:4, 5 Paul lists what belongs to Israel; given to them by God,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, [SUP]5 [/SUP]whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Gifts in 11:29 likely refers to gifts given to Israel and to the church.

At any rate I'd humbly suggest you practice what you preach when discussing Scripture with others.

You would be much more convincing by showing much more love. Is this how a brother in Christ talks to another? Have a nice life. God bless.

 

[phil112]

If you believe the small makes something less to God, then I have problems believing you are gifted in discernment. God has given me only the small gifts, and I am grateful for them all.


(And, if you think I'm talking about tongues, I'm not, also leaving me to wonder about your discernment. )

That's pretty much a statement made in ignorance. This is a thread about tongues. The poster you're replying to was talking about tongues, and tongues is the least of the gifts. The most reasonable and logical conclusion, since you didn't specify, is that you are indeed talking about tongues.

 

[convallaria]

Conv, it has just been brought to my attention I was absolutely wrong here.

Yup! He was right! I was absolutely wrong here. We just had a string of "if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved" threads recently, so I assumed you were jumping on the band wagon.

I was wrong. Please forgive me.

No problem! (I forgive you totally) I realise this is a minefield but I can't think why!! To me it is all very simple...and it's all in the Word

Thank you so much for the kindly gesture.