Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I said both of them had to be:

a) sinful
b) forgiven
c) no longer sinful

The wages of sin is death...

How can a sinful Elijah enter into heaven without dying unless he was forgiven of his sin?

What happens when God forgives someone of their sins? Do they remain sinful or are they cleaned and made sinless?

all it takes to be classified as sinful is 1sin, James said even the smallest sin cases us to be guilty of the law.

 

[Yahshua]

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. Those are the words of Jesus from John 3:13.

For truly I say to you that unless a man...a regular man...is born from water and the spirit they can not see the kingdom of heaven. Those who are born of flesh are flesh and those who are born of spirit are spirit. Don't concern yourself with how it happens. Just as the wind blows wherever it does so it's the same with those who are born of the spirit.

No one has gone to heaven but he who has come down from heaven; the son of man who is in heaven. And just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert so must the son of man be lifted up so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

---

We know that he was crucified from the foundation of the world...

We also know that even Abraham in his time saw the master's day...

So then here's an interesting question; do you think Enoch and Elijah were born again? We know they were taken to heaven, as scripture can't be broken. We also know they were sinful since all have sinned. And we know that no sinful/impure thing can enter into heaven.

 

[Yahshua]

all it takes to be classified as sinful is 1sin, James said even the smallest sin cases us to be guilty of the law.

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?

The righteousness of Christ without the deeds of the law is applied by faith.....they are justified and the condemnation of the law is no longer leveled at them....does not change the fact that they sin....just that their sin is covered UNDER the banner of grace....that is what you are missing....

Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.

---

Let me ask both of you this regarding the 1 John's 1 passage so I can understand where you're coming from..

Which seems more like what John is addressing in his letter to you?


a) The difference between someone who believes they can be sinless through obedience to the law vs. someone who believes they're a sinner saved by the grace of God.

or

b) The difference between someone who confesses their sin for forgiveness and cleansing vs. someone who doesn't believe they have any sins to confess or even worry about anymore because they believe in Christ.


Who do you think John is talking about in 1 John 1?

 

[dcontroversal]

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?



Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.

---

Let me ask both of you this regarding the 1 John's 1 passage so I can understand where you're coming from..

Which seems more like what John is addressing in his letter to you?


a) The difference between someone who believes they can be sinless through obedience to the law vs. someone who believes they're a sinner saved by the grace of God.

or

b) The difference between someone who confesses their sin for forgiveness and cleansing vs. someone who doesn't believe they have any sins to confess or even worry about them anymore because they believe in Christ.


Who do you think John is talking about in 1 John 1?

Not hardly and the same deceitful lie promoted by all who disagree with grace out bounding our sin....Did you see me write we can live in sin, sin all we want, do as we please and to he-- with the consequences because our sins are covered under grace?

 

[dcontroversal]

I think we are seeing the roots of another sinless perfectionist beginning to come to the surface.....the accusations have begun while denying the truth of the grace of God out bounding the sin sin of all believers....of course this means I believe and teach we can live like the devil because God's grace covers our sin.....

 

[Yahshua]

Not hardly and the same deceitful lie promoted by all who disagree with grace out bounding our sin....Did you see me write we can live in sin, sin all we want, do as we please and to he-- with the consequences because our sins are covered under grace?

I didn't accuse you of saying that you or me or someone "could" sin as they pleased at all. I specifically said you described grace as a license to sin. Grace isn't a covering sir. I don't remember reading that in scripture.

 

[Yahshua]

I think we are seeing the roots of another sinless perfectionist beginning to come to the surface.....the accusations have begun while denying the truth of the grace of God out bounding the sin sin of all believers....of course this means I believe and teach we can live like the devil because God's grace covers our sin.....

You can label me...or we can reason through the scriptures. I hope for the latter specially since I remember us being pretty cordial in the past.

 

[dcontroversal]

I didn't accuse you of saying that you or me or someone "could" sin as they pleased at all. I specifically said you described grace as a license to sin. Grace isn't a covering sir. I don't remember reading that in scripture.

Yeah ya did....

Originally Posted by Yahshua

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?



Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.


and I suggest you expand your horizons on sin and grace which is a POSITION that believers are PLACED INTO and it has present continuing results from a past completed action.....

In the GRACE you ARE having been saved out of faith............

WHERE SIN abounds, GRACE did MUCH more ABOUND.......

IN this GRACE wherein we now STAND......

 

[preacher4truth]

Hizi/shamah,

Be an honest man and answer the below. You go around on here demanding people read your walls of texts and demand an answer.

Man up and do the same yourself. Truth doesn't hide in a corner, and you're hiding.

Do you interpret works as keeping OT Law? It appears you conflate the two.

Are you of the Hebrew Roots movement?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I think we are seeing the roots of another sinless perfectionist beginning to come to the surface.....the accusations have begun while denying the truth of the grace of God out bounding the sin sin of all believers....of course this means I believe and teach we can live like the devil because God's grace covers our sin.....

certainly seems like it

*sigh*

praise God for His imputed righteousness

all glory to Him...


none to self


true fruits of the spirit are a product of one who is born again (saved already)

not something we maintain in order to keep our own slavation
or
regain it

or earn it in the first place

 

[dcontroversal]

You can label me...or we can reason through the scriptures. I hope for the latter specially since I remember us being pretty cordial in the past.

We are reasoning....but when you ascribe something to me that I have not said like the following.....I take major issue with it....so....Let us just cut to the chase bro....Are you a sinless perfectionist?

You said and or implied the following...and we are cleansed and then positioned IN GRACE where God's grace OUTBOUNDS our sin and deals with it as we SIN, hence NO CONDEMNATION

Originally Posted by Yahshua

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?



Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

the whole

"well are you saying you can sin all you want?"

argument


once God puts a new heart and spirit in His children

sin isnt something we want

the flesh not making it past judgement wants sin

we want righteousness

and work OUT our salvation (which we already have)
not FOR it

trusting in works
(like those in matthew who He never knew)

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Peter 4:1-8, “Therefore, since Messiah suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so that he no longer lives the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but according to the desire of Yah. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the desire of the nations, having walked in indecencies, lusts, drunkenness, orgies, wild parties, and abominable idolatries, in which they are surprised that you do not run with them in the same flood of loose behavior, blaspheming, who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the Good News was also brought to those who are dead, so that, whereas they are judged according to men in the flesh, they might live according to Yah in the spirit. But the end of all has drawn near. Therefore be sober-minded, and be attentive in the prayers. And above all have fervent love for one another, because love covers a great number of sins.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Messiah said it not me....

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

 

[Yahshua]

We are reasoning....but when you ascribe something to me that I have not said like the following.....I take major issue with it....so....Let us just cut to the chase bro....Are you a sinless perfectionist?

You said and or implied the following...and we are cleansed and then positioned IN GRACE where God's grace OUTBOUNDS our sin and deals with it as we SIN, hence NO CONDEMNATION

Originally Posted by Yahshua

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?



Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.

I don't know what sinless perfectionism means and have to look it up.

Yeah ya did....

Originally Posted by Yahshua

Agreed. So what happens to someone regarding their sinfulness when God forgives their sin in that moment?



Unfortunately what I think you've just described is a license to sin without consequence if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure scripture says our sins are covered, but cleansed.


and I suggest you expand your horizons on sin and grace which is a POSITION that believers are PLACED INTO and it has present continuing results from a past completed action.....

In the GRACE you ARE having been saved out of faith............

WHERE SIN abounds, GRACE did MUCH more ABOUND.......

IN this GRACE wherein we now STAND......

No I didn't. There's a difference in accusing you of promoting sin and disagreeing with your definition of grace. Could your definition lead to some babe in Christ sinning? Yes? But I didn't accuse you of promoting sin.

I fully believe in grace too, without which there is no power to resist sin. But I disagree that they are positions we're placed into.

I don't believe sin is a position but an action; a "work of death"...

...and I don't believe grace is a position but the gift of divine strength from God given to us by faith alone...

...so that when sin's temptation abounds that gift of divine strength abounds much more in us to help us to resist the temptation to sin.

I believe this is why Peter implores us to grow in that grace, because we're supposed to be exercising it and strengthening it. If it's a position what's there to grow into? We can't grow into a position we already find ourselves in after conversion, you see what I mean?

 

[Budman]

When will those who add works of the Law to the gospel realize we have been acquitted of all charges? We have no sins attributed to us. They are gone, forgotten, thrown as far as the east is from the west. The trial is over and we cannot be dragged back for another.

Our fine has been paid IN FULL. The case is CLOSED.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

everyone

guilty of even 1 sin
is going to hell

this is just


but God is not only just

He is loving
and has an abundance of mercy

when Jesus died on the cross
this was a sacrifice in which
He payed for every sin of the WHOLE world....

so that those who believe on Him can be seen as sinless as He is


those who are born again

are adopted children

every single sin is covered by the blood of Jesus
(all glory goes to Him)

and we who have sinned but been born again

will have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

our Lord and savior

we are justified by His righteousness

Romans 5:19

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”


praise God

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The will of the Father

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
These men believe in their "wonderful works" to save them... not Jesus

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because they have not submitted to His righteousness they will still have the sins they commit to answer for




__________


will of the Father?

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

one last post

i hope this isnt too long winded my friend


romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth




may God bless you

bump for those who refuse His sacrifice was enough


bump for those who will not submit to HIS righteousness

bump for those pushing a false gospel

bump for the sheep still being blown about by every wind of doctrine


may God bless you with what HE wants you to see

and deliver you from the false doctrine of wolves

 

[Magenta]

When will those who add works of the Law to the gospel realize we have been acquitted of all charges? We have no sins attributed to us. They are gone, forgotten, thrown as far as the east is from the west. The trial is over and we cannot be dragged back for another.

Our fine has been paid IN FULL. The case is CLOSED.

The just shall live by faith

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and possessing the Witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 19:17-19, "And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – YHWH. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.” He said to Him, “Which?” And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Respect your father and your mother’ and ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Aḏam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

The just shall live by faith

amen sister