Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[Grace777x70]

Jesus Himself fulfilled the whole law which is why not one tittle of it shall go away until all is fulfilled. Those who try to live by the law will be judged according to the law.

Jesus elevated the law to show of their need for a Savior - not so that they could save themselves. It is to reveal their self-righteousness and the false belief that they can inherit eternal life by "their doing" which is what all works-based belief systems are built off.

It is the fruit of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Here is a short 5 minute video that talks about "What does it mean when Jesus states He did not come to destroy the law?"


[video=youtube;L6NrApnV8dI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6NrApnV8dI[/video]

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by BillG

He still works at my place, so every now and then a opportunity arises.

I did give him some resources to read.

Funnily enough one was titled the "Dicotomy of justification and works" it may have been faith and works.
Ive lost my copy, which is a shame as it was a good read.

It is impossible to separate faith from works just as it would be to separate the spirit essence of life from the body made from the dust. You would have a dead body that could not work as was Adam’s before Christ by faith breathed into Him the breath(spirit) of life.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Not faith and works, the kind of faith that is not of our own selves we freely receive is according to his work of faith, His three day labor of love.

His faith without works would be like Him believing (having the faith) that something would appear and doing the work of pronouncing: “Let there be” and nothing came into sight.

 

[valiant]

Regarding your friend who says he believes in God and is hoping to "get in" by doing more good works than bad works.

Jesus is God. If He says he believes in God then He's going to be with God.

Belief in God does not mean people will be with God. There are millions who believe in God and yet never have time for Him. Even a general belief in Jesus will not be enough. It must be a belief that responds.

If he's trying to do good works to "get in", I'd say he's toiling and I'm sorry for Him.
Jesus said hIS yoke is easy and light and he gives us comfort and sent us help.

However, because he had INCORRECT doctrine, does not mean he is lost.
Jesus saves us, not our doctrine. OR MANY OF US WOULD BE LOST, since there are so many doctrines floating about!

There are certain essential doctrines which we have to believe and respond to in order to be saved. We have to believe in God the Father, our creator, we have to believe in Jesus as God the Son Who died on the cross for our sin, we have to believe in the Holy Spirit and His work within us. We have to make a personal response to Christ as the One Who saves us. These are essential doctrines.

 

[AllenW]

INTERMISSION


[video=youtube;0wG2A4h4GW0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wG2A4h4GW0[/video]

 

[BillG]

INTERMISSION


[video=youtube;0wG2A4h4GW0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wG2A4h4GW0[/video]

Any ice cream and popcorn

 

[valiant]

VALIENT!

I hope you know there were two named Igantius.

I DID SAY IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH.

Igantius of Antioch (the Bishop of Antioch)
KNEW And learned from JOHN THE APOSTLE.

You could look this up, don't take my word for it.

Yes I know there were two Ignatiuses. I have studied Ignatius of Antioch in depth. He was a boy when he heard John, and he certainly did not absorb much of his teaching. His writings make this very clear.

He did not understand Paul's teaching to the Romans either. And he was not alone. Clement of Rome also did not. The late Ist century and early 2nd century church was not well taught if they are anything to go by. But we must remember that they did not on the whole have the NT scriptures available like we do.

 

[valiant]

It is impossible to separate faith from works just as it would be to separate the spirit essence of life from the body made from the dust. You would have a dead body that could not work as was Adam’s before Christ by faith breathed into Him the breath(spirit) of life.

But we can separate faith and works, and spirit and body, in our reasoning. And faith must come BEFORE works to be saving faith. The dying thief had no works. But he had saving faith,

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is because James knew that saving faith results in works. Works must be its fruits,,

Not faith and works, the kind of faith that is not of our own selves we freely receive is according to his work of faith, His three day labor of love.

He did that work. We are saved by believing in it.

His faith without works would be like Him believing (having the faith) that something would appear and doing the work of pronouncing: “Let there be” and nothing came into sight.

Yes but light was the result of His faith. However you are mixing up two types of faith. Faith in what He could do as God, and our believing in Him for what He had done

 

[Chris1975]

Branches that bear NO fruit are dead branches. Faith without works is dead and is not genuine faith. Once again, in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

I am looking for where in the bible it talks about self-attached branches. You have proceeded to explain in your own words. I am looking for you to back this up with scripture. Are the branches "self attached" or "grafted in" ?

 

[FranC]

Belief in God does not mean people will be with God. There are millions who believe in God and yet never have time for Him. Even a general belief in Jesus will not be enough. It must be a belief that responds.



There are certain essential doctrines which we have to believe and respond to in order to be saved. We have to believe in God the Father, our creator, we have to believe in Jesus as God the Son Who died on the cross for our sin, we have to believe in the Holy Spirit and His work within us. We have to make a personal response to Christ as the One Who saves us. These are essential doctrines.

For someone who believes in love, and grace, you certainly do sound very legalistic in your demands of HOW one comes to salvation.

 

[FranC]

AllenW

Thanks for the intermission.
Nice.

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 2

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,


Another scripture which confirms scripture.

What is clear from the above is this:
1) We are to HEED the things we have heard (believe them, and obey them)
2) For if we don't we will drift away (apostasy; falling from the faith)
3) Salvation can be neglected (if you neglect salvation, you don't keep salvation)
4) And if it is neglected, how shall we (the Church) escape?

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 2

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,


Another scripture which confirms scripture.

What is clear from the above is this:
1) We are to HEED the things we have heard (believe them, and obey them)
2) For if we don't we will drift away (apostasy; falling from the faith)
3) Salvation can be neglected (if you neglect salvation, you don't keep salvation)
4) And if it is neglected, how shall we (the Church) escape?

So Osassers ---- another one to chew on. How does someone who is saved neglect salvation? If it is already done and dusted?

 

[Gabriel2020]

Salvation begins when you first become a believer and ends at the end of your life here on earth. if you have endured,and have not fallen away from the faith, your reward is waiting in heaven.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He's saying that ALL MEN FROM THE BEGINNING could know God and HAVE NO EXCUSE.
If they didn't KNOW God, they WOULD have an excuse, they could just say they never knew God.
THE would e their excuse.

EXACTLY.

So why do you change the the word "knew" in Rom 1:19 and 21 from "perceived" or "observed" to "full, intimate knowledge"? You then give an excuse to those who were only aware of God, and who didn't know God intimately.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus is Always looking for the lost. BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK.
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with.

You keep saying that the sheep in the parable "was never even saved to begin with".

Yet you also keep saying "BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK"

You can't have it both ways ... that they were "never even saved" yet "HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK".


How can He force them back if they were never His to begin with?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Belief in God does not mean people will be with God. There are millions who believe in God and yet never have time for Him. Even a general belief in Jesus will not be enough. It must be a belief that responds.

There are certain essential doctrines which we have to believe and respond to in order to be saved. We have to believe in God the Father, our creator, we have to believe in Jesus as God the Son Who died on the cross for our sin, we have to believe in the Holy Spirit and His work within us. We have to make a personal response to Christ as the One Who saves us. These are essential doctrines.

For someone who believes in love, and grace, you certainly do sound very legalistic in your demands of HOW one comes to salvation.

It is because it is all ALL of grace (of God's unmerited action) that we can be saved. But we must have a minimal knowledge about Who is saving us and how, otherwise we will not be saved.

 

[valiant]

I am looking for where in the bible it talks about self-attached branches. You have proceeded to explain in your own words. I am looking for you to back this up with scripture. Are the branches "self attached" or "grafted in" ?

Jesus talked about the self attached branches in John 2.23-25.

 

[serpentdove]

Branches that bear NO fruit are dead branches. Faith without works is dead and is not genuine faith. Once again, in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Everyone is chosen. Men must respond in faith.

Everyone has faith. What kind of faith--that's another matter altogether. You trust Satan, your father or God. Jn 8:44, Ro 6:18

See:

Does God Elect Everyone?

Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

 

[valiant]

Everyone is chosen. Men must respond in faith.

Many are called but FEW are chosen.

Everyone has faith.

There are a number of types of faith. Belief in Christ is not just using faith. It is active commitment to Christ to save.

What kind of faith--that's another matter altogether. You trust Satan, your father or God. Jn 8:44, Ro 6:18

Most people trust neither. They do not even think about Satan. Trust in God must be different from 'trust' in Satan, for it is positive.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Believe = to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in.

Let's see.
First of all your description of BELIEVE is not the GREEK description of BELIEVE.
Try again.

Please check out this link:


Pisteuo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version


I looked it up when you replied to me by posting

You say "I believe".
Some persons KNOW FOR SURE.

in reply to me when I posted

I believe Rom 1:21 means that they were aware of God as opposed to coming to a full understanding of comprehension of God.

The reason I said "I believe Rom 1:21 means … "


is because that is my understanding of the verse and I am not going to force my understanding on you or anyone else. We plant / water. God then brings the increase.


Your insistence that it is only those who come to an intimate knowledge of God who are the ones who do not have an excuse is ludicrous. What about those who are only "aware" of God without "knowing" Him? They now have an excuse? Clearly, the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 includes people who have not come to an intimate knowledge of God.

I pray that God will increase your understanding of Rom 1:21 because when brought to its conclusion, your understanding falls apart.

Of course if someone does not agree with me it's because they don't understand the bible.

How do you know it's not you who does not understand? What if you are in error?

Also, if you want to know biblical truth, you will NOT FIND IT in Calvinism.

Mr. Calvin came along 1,500 years AFTER Jesus died. What makes you think HE understood the bible MORE than all those that came before him?????

I have never read Mr. Calvin.

Just because I believe and rely on God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to keep me from falling and to come after me if/when I stray more than I believe in my own ability to keep myself on the path, does not mean I follow Mr. Calvin.

If you want to know what Jesus taught the Apostles, who were with Him for His entire ministry, you'll have to go back BEFORE the reformation, all the way back to THE BEGINNING and read what those who were alive back then taught about what Jesus preached.

If I want to know what Jesus taught the Apostles, who were with Him for His entire ministry, I read Scripture.

I don't like to post links because THE BIBLE should be sufficient to understand THE TRUTH.

In agreement.

However, if you're at all interested, you could PM me and I'll give you the link.

Each talk lasts about 1 1/2 hours, and there's one on every important topic.

I've only heard a little bit of a couple, but it's very good.

Thanks, I’ll stick with Scripture.