Predestination
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Your the one who thinks he deserves credit for his choice to accept Jesus. you and Shroomer.
(Romans 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Show me. I have never defended Calvinism as a set of doctrine for Christians. I've only defended predestination and Sola Dei Gloria.
You keep bringing up FORCE. Like a broken record. Thats what got under my skin and thats why I oppose you in this thread. You keep projecting HYPER Calvinism on people who want to give all Glory to God, and dont wanna take any credit WHATSOEVER for their salvation.
Ok this is very important.
God does not look down the tunnels of time to see who's gonna believe and who doesnt. He ALREADY chose them before the foundations of the world. He doesnt need a magic ball. HE'S NOT A DIVINER. Men think like that not God. God predestinates things acccording to HIS WILL. NOT according to MANS WILL.
(Ephesians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Therefore, ergo, so it follows that....His Sheep believe BECAUSE He chose them. NOT the other way round.
This is where your argument breaks down. You have it the wrong way round...and what it leads to is YOU taking credit for part of your salvation. Which is naughty.
IT DOESNT MATTER. We both agree that FORCE is not the issue. If someone wants to say God drags them to the cross I got no problems with it. It's like saying God rescued them from the battlefield of the world and dragged them into His Kingdom. We WANT TO BE SAVED DONT WE?
Are you gonna stop someone from dragging you, injured (DEAD in your sins) off the battlefield? Are you gonna say 'hey...you are doing this against my will!'
Erm..if you mean PERISH....then God is willing that none of His ELECT should perish...and He will not fail in that commision. This is why I've also noticed you flirting with universalism...coz you take that verse and rip it out of context.
It doesnt matter to me which word is used...draw, dragged, pulled, lead...same same. Your argument is total semantics. It shows you just wanna have a pop at Calvin and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that.
By the way, I've never studied Calvin...but can you show me where he says Christians are FORCED to accept God? Or is your only lifeline this dragged thing?
Grow up.
(Romans 12:3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Show me. I have never defended Calvinism as a set of doctrine for Christians. I've only defended predestination and Sola Dei Gloria.
You keep bringing up FORCE. Like a broken record. Thats what got under my skin and thats why I oppose you in this thread. You keep projecting HYPER Calvinism on people who want to give all Glory to God, and dont wanna take any credit WHATSOEVER for their salvation.
Ok this is very important.
God does not look down the tunnels of time to see who's gonna believe and who doesnt. He ALREADY chose them before the foundations of the world. He doesnt need a magic ball. HE'S NOT A DIVINER. Men think like that not God. God predestinates things acccording to HIS WILL. NOT according to MANS WILL.
(Ephesians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Therefore, ergo, so it follows that....His Sheep believe BECAUSE He chose them. NOT the other way round.
This is where your argument breaks down. You have it the wrong way round...and what it leads to is YOU taking credit for part of your salvation. Which is naughty.
IT DOESNT MATTER. We both agree that FORCE is not the issue. If someone wants to say God drags them to the cross I got no problems with it. It's like saying God rescued them from the battlefield of the world and dragged them into His Kingdom. We WANT TO BE SAVED DONT WE?
Are you gonna stop someone from dragging you, injured (DEAD in your sins) off the battlefield? Are you gonna say 'hey...you are doing this against my will!'
Erm..if you mean PERISH....then God is willing that none of His ELECT should perish...and He will not fail in that commision. This is why I've also noticed you flirting with universalism...coz you take that verse and rip it out of context.
It doesnt matter to me which word is used...draw, dragged, pulled, lead...same same. Your argument is total semantics. It shows you just wanna have a pop at Calvin and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that.
By the way, I've never studied Calvin...but can you show me where he says Christians are FORCED to accept God? Or is your only lifeline this dragged thing?
Grow up.
E
First off, nothing before this part of your quote is worth replying to. All ad hominem attacks or strawmen. And I refuse to discuss these things anymore.
Second.
Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
How did God foreknow? If God knew who I was before time began is it not reasonable to expect God also knew everything I would ever do at the same time?
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
See the pattern?
1. Foreknew
2. Predestined
3. Called
4. Justified
4. Glorified
it is quite simple. God knew all. As I think David said, God knew me before I was in my mother womb, He knew everything about David. What he would do. How he would act. Everything.
You think I surprise God by receiving him, and he did not know I would do it already. Or do you think someone who rejects him suprises him, and that he did not know already before time began who these people were?
Of course you left this passage out of your argument. I think we all know why
Can you show me in scripture that only th elect are spoken of here?? You must have a different bible than I do
Second.
Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
How did God foreknow? If God knew who I was before time began is it not reasonable to expect God also knew everything I would ever do at the same time?
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
See the pattern?
1. Foreknew
2. Predestined
3. Called
4. Justified
4. Glorified
it is quite simple. God knew all. As I think David said, God knew me before I was in my mother womb, He knew everything about David. What he would do. How he would act. Everything.
You think I surprise God by receiving him, and he did not know I would do it already. Or do you think someone who rejects him suprises him, and that he did not know already before time began who these people were?
Of course you left this passage out of your argument. I think we all know why
Can you show me in scripture that only th elect are spoken of here?? You must have a different bible than I do
So what is the right word Shroomey? Glory?
Shroom.....the seeds that fell by the wayside and the other seeds that encountered a harsh environment...are these one who resisted to grow once in the Earth...or did they not even get near the Earth and have the chance to grow?
What do you think this parable means?
Shroom.....the seeds that fell by the wayside and the other seeds that encountered a harsh environment...are these one who resisted to grow once in the Earth...or did they not even get near the Earth and have the chance to grow?
What do you think this parable means?
E
wow. did Adam and Eve need the HS and Jesus?
You are warped my friend.
Adam and Eve were perfect. walked personally with God every day. personally witness his loving kindness and everything they had to offer. They chose to turn from this love and go their own way. This brought their need of a savior. and the promise of Gen 3: 15.
do you actually believe this crap you say or are you just being sarcastic? I hope it is the second. because your continued attempt to prove yourself right with stuff like this just amazes me.
You remind me of a pharisee who will excuse everything they are accused of because they are to proud to be shown to be wrong in any way
You are warped my friend.
Adam and Eve were perfect. walked personally with God every day. personally witness his loving kindness and everything they had to offer. They chose to turn from this love and go their own way. This brought their need of a savior. and the promise of Gen 3: 15.
do you actually believe this crap you say or are you just being sarcastic? I hope it is the second. because your continued attempt to prove yourself right with stuff like this just amazes me.
You remind me of a pharisee who will excuse everything they are accused of because they are to proud to be shown to be wrong in any way
All sermons by
Brian Borgman
An Overview of Predestination
An Overview of Predestination - SermonAudio.com
Predestination and Election
Predestination and Election - SermonAudio.com
Predestination and Foreknowledge: Those Whom He Foreknew
Predestination and Foreknowledge: Those Whom He Foreknew - SermonAudio.com
Predestination and Free Will (Pt 1)
Predestination and Free Will (Pt 1) - SermonAudio.com
Predestination and Free Will (Pt 2)
Predestination and Free Will (Pt 2) - SermonAudio.com
Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone
Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration
Of course cuz you made accusations and now you cant back them up.
Ok this is excellent. We're getting right to the heart of your error.
Look......
If you say 'I know I'm gonna take a bath tonight'. Does it mean that you have travelled forward in time and seen yourself taking a bath, or does it simply mean you know that you have the power and control over how you use your units of time and you have the ability to absolutely state that you are gonna have a bath tonight because you know you are gonna?
God knows everything because HE CONTROLS EVERYTHING.
He has no need to look into a crystal ball or get into a De Lorean with 2.21 gigawatts of power and race through the tunnels of time to see what decisions everyone is making and then adjust His starting plan accordingly. The very idea is ABSURD. This is GOD we're talking about!
He foreknows EVERYTHING because everything happens according to HIS WILL. (His plans)
He doesnt do a dry run of life on Earth and then build His plans around that.
No one surprises God. Because He knows who does what coz He made the plan in the beginning. He didnt look thru time like a diviner or a witch and see who's gonna do what. What kind of God do you think we have?
The passage fits perfectly with my theology I dunno what yer talkin bout.
(2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who is Peter talking to here?
Ok this is excellent. We're getting right to the heart of your error.
Look......
If you say 'I know I'm gonna take a bath tonight'. Does it mean that you have travelled forward in time and seen yourself taking a bath, or does it simply mean you know that you have the power and control over how you use your units of time and you have the ability to absolutely state that you are gonna have a bath tonight because you know you are gonna?
God knows everything because HE CONTROLS EVERYTHING.
He has no need to look into a crystal ball or get into a De Lorean with 2.21 gigawatts of power and race through the tunnels of time to see what decisions everyone is making and then adjust His starting plan accordingly. The very idea is ABSURD. This is GOD we're talking about!
He foreknows EVERYTHING because everything happens according to HIS WILL. (His plans)
He doesnt do a dry run of life on Earth and then build His plans around that.
No one surprises God. Because He knows who does what coz He made the plan in the beginning. He didnt look thru time like a diviner or a witch and see who's gonna do what. What kind of God do you think we have?
The passage fits perfectly with my theology I dunno what yer talkin bout.
(2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Who is Peter talking to here?
take it one step further Doc: why did Jesus even speak in parables?
Matthew 13
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
~
Jesus:
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
man:
Man 6:44
anyone one can come to me, and the Father who sent me is pleading and wringing his hands. if the libertarian man makes a good decision to avail himself of what isnt really a gift but a reward, I will raise him up on the last day, if he wants to be raised up.
Matthew 13
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
~
Jesus:
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
man:
Man 6:44
anyone one can come to me, and the Father who sent me is pleading and wringing his hands. if the libertarian man makes a good decision to avail himself of what isnt really a gift but a reward, I will raise him up on the last day, if he wants to be raised up.
My question was.....
Did they know that God sacrificed His only begotten Son for the sins of the world?
You say they knew God more than anyone. I disagree. Those who have Christ indwelling in them and have the complete Gospel know God more. Sorry you feel like throwing out insults and all, you seem a little frustrated.
Did they know that God sacrificed His only begotten Son for the sins of the world?
You say they knew God more than anyone. I disagree. Those who have Christ indwelling in them and have the complete Gospel know God more. Sorry you feel like throwing out insults and all, you seem a little frustrated.
Really? that's your come back? Wasn't that after they sinned? Were they not naked before and clothed in the glory of God? Do you not understand that Adam and Eve was sinless and had a relationship with God and the only reason we need to accept Christ is to get back that relationship that we once had with God through Adam and Eve?
E
What does that have to do with anything? Your telling me they did not know the love of God. Are you that desperate to prove yourself right that you will make excuses like this?
LOL. Amazing just plain amazing. your willingness to prove yourself right.
Have you ever seen God? They did. Have you ever walked side with God? they did. Have you ever seen everything that God can and will do for you? They did. Did you have God personally in front of your eyes kill and animal, take his hide and give them to you for clothes? They did.
Keep trying. you are confused.
LOL. Amazing just plain amazing. your willingness to prove yourself right.
Have you ever seen God? They did. Have you ever walked side with God? they did. Have you ever seen everything that God can and will do for you? They did. Did you have God personally in front of your eyes kill and animal, take his hide and give them to you for clothes? They did.
Keep trying. you are confused.