3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Why the angst in your posts directed at me? Why do you have such hatred in your heart towards me? I have been civil towards you, but that is not reciprocated. Everyone can see this is they read the posts you've posted at me. I wish to converse with you, but your hatred towards me is quite telling. You can disagree with me and that's fine. But the nastiness in your posts directed at me are rather unbecoming. Please debate me in a civil manner.
go read your own posts

there is no angst...see that is exactly what you do and then accuse me of hatred

and you have not been civil

do you even know what angst means? you use inflammatory words and then wonder why people don't leave hearts and kisses in their replies

get real. the hypocrisy towards others is real....try respect and you might get some instead of your false accusations

frankly I don't care if you deal with my posts or not since you do not actually deal with them as this post to me proves

you constantly try to engage others in personal posts rather than simply deal with the topic

yes yes I know. it's a famous Calvinist type tactic but it isn't working so quit it
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
This might have been said already, but I'm not going to read through 25 pages of comments to check.

I guess I attend a Calvinist Church, the CRC or Christian Reformed Church....but I actually don't consider it Calvinist, I prefer the term Christian.

I have posted a few times now and I guess it bears saying again

there are literally THOUSANDS of reformed churches and many differing views on how to operate them

probably most of them are not hard core followers of the TULIP formula as the few that we have here are

Christian is the term most of us prefer

Calvinist's preach the true Gospel, and you're opposed to that message. You've claimed they are all lost.
above is a quote from one of the Calvinists here. he is trying to claim only Calvinists preach the 'true' gospel and then states the person he is addressing that they are opposed to 'the gospel'

these Calvinists believe only they are the elect and they also believe they are especially chosen and those who are not, are chosen to go to hell

the Bible plainly and repeatedly states that we are able to choose and God is not willing that any perish yet here we have Calvinists telling us that is not true
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
Why the angst in your posts directed at me? Why do you have such hatred in your heart towards me? I have been civil towards you, but that is not reciprocated. Everyone can see this is they read the posts you've posted at me. I wish to converse with you, but your hatred towards me is quite telling. You can disagree with me and that's fine. But the nastiness in your posts directed at me are rather unbecoming. Please debate me in a civil manner.

Ignore scripture and mock? What about this?

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.[Ephesians 2]

In vss 1 and 5 the Greek word for 'dead' is νεκρός(Nekros). It means...

nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."

This is the state the lost are in. They are alive physically, but dead spiritually. They are unable to respond to the gospel in their fallen state. That is why God must first regenerate them, give them the gifts of faith and repentance, they exercise them and they are saved. All of this happens simultaneously. When someone witnesses to them, those words just whizz right by them if God doesn't open their heart and ears, illumine their minds to comprehend what they are being told. The lost person can not grasp this as But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Cor. 2:14] The natural man is the man without the Spirit(NIV uses that exact phrase). Also, the lost man is hostile towards God, is at enmity(has an ill-will towards) God.

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[Romans 8]

Those in the flesh can not please God. How come? And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.[Hebrews 11:6] Those in the flesh, the lost person, has no faith and can not please God. That is why regeneration must happen first, which God also gifts the person faith and repentance, they exercise they, and they are saved. All of this happens simultaneously. :)
I already pointed out this error of interpretation here.

Dead in trespasses and sins does not mean incapable of thinking or acting. Here is my post on this from before:

You think because it says man is dead in trespasses and sins that it means men are incapable of repentance, incapable of coming to their senses like the prodigal son did? The prodigal son was also said to be "dead" to the father, yet he was fully conscious, walking and talking and even "came to himself" in other words he realized "Hey, what am I doing here?" and changed his course.

Much like we see many people who grow up in a Christian household. They rebel against their parents, say religion is stupid you guys are all wrong and dumb, they go out into the world once they grow up, they party, fornicate, waste away their life and money, only to later have that moment of conviction when all the money and fake friends and women (or men) are gone. They then "come to themselves" just as the prodigal son and realize that "Looks like my parents were right all along, I got nothing, I am empty, Lord Jesus save me!" and they come with an empty hand, in a state of repentance after that season of godly sorrow and are genuinely converted and saved.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
One would also wonder, how does a Calvinist know they are one of the Elect for certain? Because John Calvin said there is such a thing? And "you" are it?
To be quite honest here? I didn't hadn't even "heard" of John Calvin, until I came here to CC!
Having said that? I DO know something happened to me some 35 er so years ago, after I had "heard the voice of the God" asking me: "Are you ready yet?"
Which up until that time? I had heard this same voice asking me this same question some 3 er 4 times over the course of the previous 15 years er so.

But, I digress!
I have since, by trial and error, in my own personal "spiritual journeyings", come to the conclusion that we, who are "elect", come out of our mother's womb, possessing "seeds" of the "forever Priesthood" after the order of Melchizedek, then, in my personal experiences? Then anyone else has!
Whether this is "instilled" into everyone "born in flesh", and is "beaten", "oppressed", "seduced", "beguiled", "vexated", or "drugged", to the point, by "the world", that these "pieces" go "dormant?"
I cannot say, nor do I know! Yet, I think there is a DISTINCT POSSIBILITY, that this is indeed the case! Given "responses" I have "heard" since!

Meaning? The "world" HATES us! Before the "elect" even know what's going on within themselves!
IOW? Persecution BEGINS AT BIRTH!

But, to answer this question, I "clipped" from your post?
I guess my answer would have to be Yes!
As it seems John Calvin had a "better grip" on "this Holy Priesthood" mentioned several times in the Bible. As well as Peter's "grip" on it:
1 Peter 2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
To be quite honest here? I didn't hadn't even "heard" of John Calvin, until I came here to CC!
Having said that? I DO know something happened to me some 35 er so years ago, after I had "heard the voice of the God" asking me: "Are you ready yet?"
Which up until that time? I had heard this same voice asking me this same question some 3 er 4 times over the course of the previous 15 years er so.

But, I digress!
I have since, by trial and error, in my own personal "spiritual journeyings", come to the conclusion that we, who are "elect", come out of our mother's womb, possessing "seeds" of the "forever Priesthood" after the order of Melchizedek, then, in my personal experiences? Then anyone else has!
Whether this is "instilled" into everyone "born in flesh", and is "beaten", "oppressed", "seduced", "beguiled", "vexated", or "drugged", to the point, by "the world", that these "pieces" go "dormant?"
I cannot say, nor do I know! Yet, I think there is a DISTINCT POSSIBILITY, that this is indeed the case! Given "responses" I have "heard" since!

Meaning? The "world" HATES us! Before the "elect" even know what's going on within themselves!
IOW? Persecution BEGINS AT BIRTH!

But, to answer this question, I "clipped" from your post?
I guess my answer would have to be Yes!
As it seems John Calvin had a "better grip" on "this Holy Priesthood" mentioned several times in the Bible. As well as Peter's "grip" on it:
1 Peter 2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
....and this, is where "most" of Christendom, comes up shorting themselves, and everyone else who pays heed to their "lies."
Spiritual Maturity? Does NOT come WITHOUT PERSECUTION!

So, should you be a believer who is "at peace?"
Suffering no persecution congruent with your salvation?
You are not "trying" hard enough!

Why?
Cuz, it ain't EASY giving the devil his well deserved "eternal torment!"
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Where is the good news in if you are are elect you will be saved? You act as if that’s a bad thing. o_O:eek::oops:

Ppl do respond to the gospel my friend. In their fallen state it is “noooooo”. :)
If you believe God then yes they do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Where did God sent His word? Into all the world. Why do the heavenly host rejoice when Christ was born? The Redeemer sent from God had arrived.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
To be quite honest here? I didn't hadn't even "heard" of John Calvin, until I came here to CC!
Having said that? I DO know something happened to me some 35 er so years ago, after I had "heard the voice of the God" asking me: "Are you ready yet?"
Which up until that time? I had heard this same voice asking me this same question some 3 er 4 times over the course of the previous 15 years er so.

But, I digress!
I have since, by trial and error, in my own personal "spiritual journeyings", come to the conclusion that we, who are "elect", come out of our mother's womb, possessing "seeds" of the "forever Priesthood" after the order of Melchizedek, then, in my personal experiences? Then anyone else has!
Whether this is "instilled" into everyone "born in flesh", and is "beaten", "oppressed", "seduced", "beguiled", "vexated", or "drugged", to the point, by "the world", that these "pieces" go "dormant?"
I cannot say, nor do I know! Yet, I think there is a DISTINCT POSSIBILITY, that this is indeed the case! Given "responses" I have "heard" since!

Meaning? The "world" HATES us! Before the "elect" even know what's going on within themselves!
IOW? Persecution BEGINS AT BIRTH!

But, to answer this question, I "clipped" from your post?
I guess my answer would have to be Yes!
As it seems John Calvin had a "better grip" on "this Holy Priesthood" mentioned several times in the Bible. As well as Peter's "grip" on it:
1 Peter 2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
John Calvin was copying other men's doctrine when he expounded upon those prior sources with his own interpretation.
TULIP preceded Calvin. Calvin just happens to be one of the most notable patriarchs of his era, and one of the most sadistic, which is why he garners the attentions of those who study Soteriology or any other discipline in the faith.

As for hearing God call you, that's great. No one can argue against your or anyone's personal testimony.
TULIP's contention is that only certain people born throughout time in the world are predetermined by God to enter His grace, by His putting them in that, not their will or choice to follow, and also faith, which is God's doing exclusively also, no human choice involved.

In the case of Calvin he believed in double predestination, which is not always a product of the TULIP formula in some Denominations that ascribe to TULIP. DP means God not only predetermined whom He would save, but also whom He would condemn to Hell or outer darkness, depending on one's Denominational beliefs.

That the Christian feels compelled to enter into the word of God does not mean that TULIP was right in its teaching concerning Irresistible Grace. Or for that matter any of the other parts of it.

The thing for me that is important to recall is the words of God that tell us He is in all and all things are from Him and abide in Him . Meaning, the illusion TULIP , as that's under discussion here, fosters is that we are not only Totally Depraved, by God's doing, but that we are eternally separated from God, by God's doing, unless or until we are one of TULIP's defined elect.

But that isn't true. Separation from God is the illusion we suffer under. No matter what umbrella term we hold our faith under, Denominational, or otherwise.
And that is because of what God told us about Himself and His creation.
The Book of Genesis chapter 1:1 1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Book of Colossians chapter 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Book of John chapter 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The truth shall set us free. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He showed us, as what appeared to be a Jewish male in Palestine, the power of God because Jesus was God. He was knitted together by His Holy Spirit power in the womb of Mary and was born into the world as, Emmanuel= God with us.
And in this blessing, He showed us that the separation of our flesh from our God is the illusion. Because the truth is, no thing can separate us from the source of our being. Which is what Jesus taught us. That this world is the actual illusion. That death is the illusion. That we are holy, eternal souls of and from the Creator of all of it.

Jesus is the Bridge that brings that illusion of separation into perspective. Have faith Jesus took all that we are led to believe keeps us separated from our Father upon Himself on the cross; Sin. Which is transgression of God's best for us. So that we, hearing that, can release the trappings of this world upon our mind, and instead of thinking we must satisfy the flesh, the carnality, the hedonistic spirit, the material desires for "stuff", cars, money, houses, bling, etc... , because we imagine this life is our one shot and then we are no more, as atheists insist.

And having released that, having repented of all that we did while locked in our vision of this worlds importance in our life, receive the truth of God in Christ. That we are more than simple flesh and bone, as Jesus proved when He walked from the tomb having overcome the first death.

That we are sacred temples that are home to the Holy Spirit God that is Creator of all things. And as such, when this flesh we valued satisfying so much before finally succumbs to the nature of life's transference unto death, it shall return to the ground from which it was made, and our soul shall return to the Father that gave it.

Jesus is the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, which He was in flesh, except through, through, God. (Emmanuel=God with us).
In other words, we are of and from God and we shall return to God. Because once we believe, know, accept, cherish the truth, that Jesus taught about redemption, repentance, and reconciliation, we enter into His hand, the security of the promise, which is actually a fact that is Creator and Creation, and no one, not one, will take us from His hand.

Because we know the truth.

And that Truth has set us free.

I don't believe in TULIP. I do believe that God leads us to Him because ever fiber of our being, every cell, every chromosome, every bit of us, our essence, our energy, our soul, is of and from God. When the world gets us down, when our spirit is shaken and afraid, that's when the truth within us, the soul linked ever and always to its source, God our Father, sends us God's knee mail, as we pray, becaise even if we don't pray, when we're desperate and afraid, that in itself is a message our spirit communicates to the God, and our being led then to reach for that copy of Gideon's in the nightstand, or to pull over and enter that church up there on the corner this fine Sunday, or call a prayer line, or ask a friend we know is Christian, to help us to find our way home.

It isn't because we're responding to our name on a predetermined list as if we're in a members only snooty country club roster, and all others must burn in Hell.

We don't actually "find God". God has known where we are from the moment we were a spark in the womb.

TULIP not only deceives, but segregates the creations of God; us. While making God out to be a sadistic premeditated omniscient creator that likes to play chess with his creation so as to flex his own power.

God's creation are superior to what TULIP makes both us and God out to be.
The Theological flower bed of mans invention makes for a great opportunity to recall here the parable of the sower.
TULIP, DAISY, and ROSES.

No.
I trust God, because God created me of and from Himself. Just as He did you. That's why we are children of the Most High, and sisters and brothers in the church of Christ. That community of those in faith, who have found our way to the bridge that leads home.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
This might have been said already, but I'm not going to read through 25 pages of comments to check.

I guess I attend a Calvinist Church, the CRC or Christian Reformed Church....but I actually don't consider it Calvinist, I prefer the term Christian.
Calvin is negligible. Does your church ascribe to TULIP?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
So where is the good news in if you are elect you will be saved? Election as described in Calvinism cannot secure salvation. Any person who is elect is elect because they are saved not elect to be saved.

Total depravity is not total inability to respond to the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
In TULIP, and Calvinism, since that was brought up, Total Depravity is precisely the inability to respond to the Gospel. That's why there's the safeguard , Irresistible Grace, where God does all the work due to the Total Depravity of those whom He predestined to bring into His grace and then install into that one, faith. Because that one that is chosen as the elect is incapable of exercising free will, choice, because they are Totally Depraved.
And Calvinism teaches Double Predestination. Which means not only did God predestine those whom He would TULIP, but He also predestined those whom He created to go to Hell.

TULIPS maker was a quirky guy.
Who has a lot of 'splainin to do when he meets God.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
In TULIP, and Calvinism, since that was brought up, Total Depravity is precisely the inability to respond to the Gospel. That's why there's the safeguard , Irresistible Grace, where God does all the work due to the Total Depravity of those whom He predestined to bring into His grace and then install into that one, faith. Because that one that is chosen as the elect is incapable of exercising free will, choice, because they are Totally Depraved.
And Calvinism teaches Double Predestination. Which means not only did God predestine those whom He would TULIP, but He also predestined those whom He created to go to Hell.

TULIPS maker was a quirky guy.
Who has a lot of 'splainin to do when he meets God.
regeneration BEFORE conversion

even though you are totally depraved

oh what shall we do!

quick....make us all unable to choose and so God does it for us

false salvation plan complete :whistle:
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
regeneration BEFORE conversion

even though you are totally depraved

oh what shall we do!

quick....make us all unable to choose and so God does it for us

false salvation plan complete :whistle:
Yep, regenerated but not yet converted. Odd course of events.
What's worse? There are those who ascribe to TULIP that are taught they remain Totally Depraved even when they're put into God's grace and are given faith by God. :oops: Let that sink in. Totally Depraved, but in faith and God's grace and regenerated....into what? When they remain as they were prior; Totally Depraved.

Hi, I'm Totally Depraved (Totally unrighteous, Totally immoral, Totally, well, you know.) And Saved. :geek:

I really don't think Jesus is amused by the garden of men.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Yep, regenerated but not yet converted. Odd course of events.
What's worse? There are those who ascribe to TULIP that are taught they remain Totally Depraved even when they're put into God's grace and are given faith by God. :oops: Let that sink in. Totally Depraved, but in faith and God's grace and regenerated....into what? When they remain as they were prior; Totally Depraved.

Hi, I'm Totally Depraved (Totally unrighteous, Totally immoral, Totally, well, you know.) And Saved. :geek:

I really don't think Jesus is amused by the garden of men.
o_O

yes I recently learned about how some believe they remain totally depraved

just what exactly did they think Jesus was doing on the cross?

it's like when you see someone start off with I'm a sinner saved by grace

uh...no...no you are not....Paul did not address his letters 'dear sinners or dear totally depraved elect (there's a contradiction in terms)

no wonder half of them get in the morning fully expecting to sin all day but no matter cause God created that

GAAAAAA! o_O

I learned years back probably most Christians do not have a clue about what it is they say they believe...well maybe not most, but way too many

and half of those believe the Old Testament is a waste of time

anyway :cautious:
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,476
690
113
o_O

yes I recently learned about how some believe they remain totally depraved

just what exactly did they think Jesus was doing on the cross?

it's like when you see someone start off with I'm a sinner saved by grace

uh...no...no you are not....Paul did not address his letters 'dear sinners or dear totally depraved elect (there's a contradiction in terms)

no wonder half of them get in the morning fully expecting to sin all day but no matter cause God created that

GAAAAAA! o_O

I learned years back probably most Christians do not have a clue about what it is they say they believe...well maybe not most, but way too many

and half of those believe the Old Testament is a waste of time

anyway :cautious:
1 Tim. 1:15-
This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"--and I am the worst of them!
 
Oct 30, 2019
50
48
18
I do wonder what the motivation behind the 'Calvinist tactics' are in reality. When I came onto this site I had a totally open mind to issues such as TULIP. I knew of it and understood what it meant but other than that uninformed.

The first thread I read had me wondering if some of these people are really Christians given their attitude. "Insult and attack your brother". My human reaction, my totally depraved nature I guess :), was to say sod them.

Yes Calvinists can line up a long line of individual verses but when I read the Bible it just doesn't match their views. I see constant offers to choose from start to finish. To take the righteous path. To be saved or not. Is the Bible then one big prank? God having a laugh at our expense? He could do that of course, He is sovereign, but well I trust in His goodness. But then perhaps I am one of the ones He decided would go to hell.
 
Aug 10, 2019
552
437
63
Canada
Calvin is negligible. Does your church ascribe to TULIP?
I don't know, I wasn't even aware of that acronym and had to look it up.

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html

Just reading that over I would say yes, but I haven't jumped into TULIP that deeply. I find there's a need that is pervasive in many churches, the need to understand EVERYTHING and to label and define every aspect of faith. I'm not at that stage, and I might never get there on this side of the veil.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
regeneration BEFORE conversion

even though you are totally depraved

oh what shall we do!

quick....make us all unable to choose and so God does it for us

false salvation plan complete :whistle:
That is a funny way to put it. You could say that the TULIP rests on each other in a way that its an "Answer to a question no one has ever asked"

We think man is totally depraved and cannot respond even though God commands him to, so how do we get around it? There must be two kinds of calls, general call and effectual call, the other being irresistable, but since we know everyone isnt saved, its only to some and thats why Jesus didn't die for everyone or else His blood would be wasted because we think just because atonement is made people are automatically saved, without need for faith to apply it, since we are totally depraved.

Its one big complicated reasoning circle. False presuppositions cause all the points to stick together, and they logically follow, problem is large chunks of Scripture have to be neutralized for calvinism to work.

I believe if total depravity was to be disproven, that would make the house of cards fall down. Or alternatively it will cause people to hold on to their doctrine even more, we have seen that many times as well, where no amount of evidence will convince a person.

I saw John MacArthur on the Ben Shapiro program give out the Gospel and it was so academic and drenched in calvinist language that most viewers probably couldn't understand a word. Gospel is easy, no special regeneration is required to understand the Gospel, only deeper truths of God as is mentioned in Corinthians.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Not really sure you have countered the scripture i quoted.
You said men have the ability to accept or reject the gift of eternal life. Not so. Your side teaches salvation is a gift that God dangles out like dangling a carrot in front of a horse, and those who come to accept it are saved and those who refuse to come and accept it die lost. Not so. God calls, but it's not like a father standing on the front porch calling His children to come in the house. In this calling, He actively pursues His children and brings them into the fold. Like here...

12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. 14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18]

Carry this over to The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

So, God is not willing any of His straying sheep die lost. He is so not willing He sent His Son to procure salvation for them by dying on a cross, and He actively pursues them by sending His servants to proclaim the gospel to them. :)
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
That is a funny way to put it. You could say that the TULIP rests on each other in a way that its an "Answer to a question no one has ever asked"

We think man is totally depraved and cannot respond even though God commands him to, so how do we get around it? There must be two kinds of calls, general call and effectual call, the other being irresistable, but since we know everyone isnt saved, its only to some and thats why Jesus didn't die for everyone or else His blood would be wasted because we think just because atonement is made people are automatically saved, without need for faith to apply it, since we are totally depraved.

Its one big complicated reasoning circle. False presuppositions cause all the points to stick together, and they logically follow, problem is large chunks of Scripture have to be neutralized for calvinism to work.

I believe if total depravity was to be disproven, that would make the house of cards fall down. Or alternatively it will cause people to hold on to their doctrine even more, we have seen that many times as well, where no amount of evidence will convince a person.

I saw John MacArthur on the Ben Shapiro program give out the Gospel and it was so academic and drenched in calvinist language that most viewers probably couldn't understand a word. Gospel is easy, no special regeneration is required to understand the Gospel, only deeper truths of God as is mentioned in Corinthians.

yup

like a dog chasing it's tail...was reading more about Calvin as pope in Geneva and though some will deny it, that man was one cruel and nasty control freak

now some will say 'well that is how things were back then'...to which the reasonable person will state...'but they had the New Testament...is that how Jesus behaved or did He tell us to pray for our enemies and for those who spitefully use us?

we still find this difficult today, but I do believe we know better than to excuse the violent and murderous behavior exhibited by Calvin

and don't even start with MacArthur! I gotz answers for him too...

get a hold of 'AUTHENTIC FIRE' by Michael L. Brown, PhD...(a response to MacArthur's "Strange Fire')

MacArthur makes outrageous (outrageous I tell you!) claims & does the usual twisting and dodging of scripture and Brown really exposes the lies and false nonsense being spouted by this hater of all things Holy Spirit
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
yup

like a dog chasing it's tail...was reading more about Calvin as pope in Geneva and though some will deny it, that man was one cruel and nasty control freak

now some will say 'well that is how things were back then'...to which the reasonable person will state...'but they had the New Testament...is that how Jesus behaved or did He tell us to pray for our enemies and for those who spitefully use us?

we still find this difficult today, but I do believe we know better than to excuse the violent and murderous behavior exhibited by Calvin

and don't even start with MacArthur! I gotz answers for him too...

get a hold of 'AUTHENTIC FIRE' by Michael L. Brown, PhD...(a response to MacArthur's "Strange Fire')

MacArthur makes outrageous (outrageous I tell you!) claims & does the usual twisting and dodging of scripture and Brown really exposes the lies and false nonsense being spouted by this hater of all things Holy Spirit
I am familiar with Michael Brown. I have seen his debates with some cessationiists, it is hilarious as the cessationists literally have not a single verse to support their case. Nothing but imagination to support their assertions.

The way MacArthur is talking about gifts of the Spirit is like us talking about counterfeit money and saying: "Counterfeit money exists, therefore real money doesn't exist"