3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[NayborBear]

In the case of Calvin he believed in double predestination, which is not always a product of the TULIP formula in some Denominations that ascribe to TULIP. DP means God not only predetermined whom He would save, but also whom He would condemn to Hell or outer darkness, depending on one's Denominational beliefs.

In the matter concerning what you call, or consider "double predestination?" One "matter", methinks all believers can agree upon, is that "satan, the devil, beezlebub, king of tyre, king of assyria (spirit of anti-christ), serpent, lucifer, samyaza (leader of the fallen ones/rebellion/overthrow)(book of Enoch), dragon, son/s of perdition, or the "variety of other monikers/disguises", he has used, and is referred to over millenia, has been "predestined" by God to death/hell.

The fact that "his/their" execution of has been "stayed" (if you will), until the 70 weeks (book of Enoch/book of Daniel) are up, does not in any way negate this.

The fact that "flesh man still dies?" Only "reaffirms" "his/their" location as being in "eating the dust of the earth."
Genesis 3
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And all "believers" will have to admit?
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Different people have called "this", differently, over the course of time. Sinful nature, carnal man, serpent seed, total depravity. Probably even other terms. All referring to the above passages.

The fact that some "phrases" have not been "canonized?" Makes them less true?
I'd say no, it doesn't!

But? As with (seemingly) EVERYTHING "man" gets his hands on, he corrupts? Again, confirms "an ignorance of", when not "WILLINGLY ignorant of" these SAME above passages.

The "ignorance", can be helped/healed.

The "WILLINGLY ignorant", MUST BE FOUGHT, and beaten back! And, when ALL other options have been utilized? Physically, beaten back!

I think many people don't realize the "shamelessness" of ones who "support" and have allowed/subscribed powers and princapalities of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places, to infiltrate themselves.
To which is our "call to duty", in "service" to Our Lord and our God. aka "the Higher Calling of God" in Christ Jesus our Savior, in "warring" against them.

(egadz! I get to typing, and I can't stop sometimes)

I yield my time.....

The "schiffty railroading circus is on the air!"

 

[Jimbone]

OP-
I agree with you so much on every point, I just think the EXACT same thing applies to the other side as well. I think the problem is these "sides" in the first place. We draw these lines in the sand, and claim "I'm a Calvinist", or "I'm of Apollos", Who is this Calvinist or who is this Apollos, (1 Cor 5-17) Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 I appeal to you, brothers,a by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I see this as exactly what we do here WAY too often and "I" want to grow in this area, in all aspects of my life. I understand the passion we have towards our God and the Truth Jesus our Savior, so the subject matter invokes high emotion and desire to proclaim what the Creator of everything truly is and what He's done for us to know Him. I understand exactly what you're saying about how the "Calvinist" behave at times, but want to note for the record that some of the nastiest condemnation I've seen on here came from the "hyper Grace" camp, ironically. (also just to stay clear here, I am not suggesting or putting you in any camp at all now, also what I am referencing took place a while ago) I put those "groups" in quotes because I absolutely hate putting label on people, I understand why we do it and even why it's necessary, but the way we let it divide us and spend so much of of our time arguing the same things over and over, with the same people rather than coming together to try to understand each others view and come together to proclaim the name of Jesus. He says we are to be of one body, and that is not what were're doing when we bicker like this the way we do here much of the time.

It's just been my observation and experience that WAY too often I realize that we are both saying the same thing, just looking at it from different angle, and praise God for His living Word that speaks to us all. These things are so dumb to divide over by just slapping a label on someone and going on to not only show them why they're wrong, but to first tell them what they believe because they are under this label and now you just know all they believe before you even speak a word. That is so dangerous and of Satan, we are to come together.

Please know that I also believe in truth, the Truth Jesus Christ, so I believe there is 1 way, and compromise of the truth is not an option. So I'm not going to affirm the LDS, or the Watchtower Society, I'm not going to lift up a man that claims He sits as the Vicar of Christ, I will not agree with Islam when it says Jesus didn't die on the cross, but on these issues we're talking about here a lot of us have been on both sides of the argument, and the movement has been in both directions. I have held both views myself so I know. I am also not discouraging the conversations either, iron sharpens iron, but we are to do so with love and a gentle spirit. Something I fall WAY short on far more often than I'd like to admit. I just pray that is His mighty name that He draws us all closer that we might soften our hearts to each other and grant His Spirit of peace on all His children that we might burn brighter in this world for His glory. Amen.

 

[garee]

Yep, regenerated but not yet converted. Odd course of events.
What's worse? There are those who ascribe to TULIP that are taught they remain Totally Depraved even when they're put into God's grace and are given faith by God.


I would think as long as we live in theses bodies of death. . a desire of the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye coming from them and not it as it is written would be depraved. Therefore it His will in all its entirety as it is written .Accordioning to the letter of it it kills. According to the unseen Spirit of it. . it heals and creates anew. Together they make one perfect or complete law that quickens our soul giving us his unseen understanding.. (Psalms 19 the perfect law )

He as our treasure or power by which we can believe must work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure as an righteousness of faith not of our own self.. . which some murmur against. .(Philippians 2)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Let that sink in. Totally Depraved, but in faith and God's grace and regenerated....into what? When they remain as they were prior; Totally Depraved.

Totally Depraved would be a mercy without grace. A mercy without mercy. (merciless) Like a body without a spirit lifeless.

They alone that have received mercy and grace will rise to new spirit life.

Two kinds of mercy. God is not merciless or how could he of had mercy of the Son of man? He himself is subject to his own law in that way.

1) Mercy seasoned with grace coming from the work of Christ as his three day labor of love.

(2) And mercy that does not punish and inflict pain forever and ever without end.

No limbo in between. But rather in the twinkling of the eye the temporal spirit returns to the father of spirits and the lifeless spiritless dust returns to the clay of the field .

We are judged by the perfect law, the eternal law of liberty not in bondage to the flesh, the temporal ..

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Can faith save him? Or must it as faith be coupled with grace, the reward of his three day labor?

 

[ieuan]

I hold to Calvinist doctrine, the reformed doctrines.

If anyone sees me insulting another Christian they can point out to me that I am not following the Lord Jesus
in displaying love.

Whoever and whatever church a Christian is in they must not break the law of God:
1. to love God with all their heart and mind
2. to love the brethren as they love themselves

I have been on social media for many years and it puzzles me when I see people insult other brothers.

There are some groups of Christians that insult other Christians, label them and then attack their doctrines.
If a doctrine is found in a verse of scripture it should be handled carefully.
Words like Election and Predestination are are not written by Calvinists, they are there in God's Word.
The five points are not the standard per se, the standard is set by:
Calvin's writings, The Institutes of the Christian Religion
the Canons of Dordt 1618
The Westminster Confession of Faith 1645,
The Geneva Confession
and the Belgic Confession 1618.
Other's followed with minor differences:
London Baptist Confession c.1846
Congregational Confession c 1649

These confessions were set up by committees of the best theologians of the times
by men steeped in the scriptures and able to understand the original langauges.
Some took years of committee work to arrive at their doctrinal positions. It was no
light matter. The work of some of these committees is set out online.

I had hoped to be here as an ambassador of Christ, not as a Calvinist.

 

[Whispered]

I don't know, I wasn't even aware of that acronym and had to look it up.

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html

Just reading that over I would say yes, but I haven't jumped into TULIP that deeply. I find there's a need that is pervasive in many churches, the need to understand EVERYTHING and to label and define every aspect of faith. I'm not at that stage, and I might never get there on this side of the veil.

Not all churches do this. Denominational churches can have that as a standard. Not necessarily TULIP, but a statement of faith or a theological formula they ascribe to as a congregation under a Denominational umbrella.

If you use a search engine and the search criteria, TULIP doctrine, or theology, or formula, most engines post Calvinist references immediately. BING was an exception, though Calvinism is inevitable to show up on page one of a search regardless.
who invented TULIP doctrine

I've referred to Apologetics Press a number of times in different threads concerning the topic of TULIP and Calvinism. Repasted here for your consideration. This source I like because they refute the five points of TULIP with scripture.

TULIP posted below:

 

[Whispered]

Flaws In Calvinism​

.... (TULIP)

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Bible Responses

Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”

Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”

Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”

Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”

Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”

Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”

Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”

Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.

Bible Responses

Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”


John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”


John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”


Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”


1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”


Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”

Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Bible Responses

1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”


1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”


Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”


1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”


John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”


2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”


Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”


Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”

Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Bible Responses

Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”


Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”


John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”


Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”


Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”


Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Bible Responses

Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”


2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”


Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”


Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”


Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”


James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”


Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”


Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”


Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”

 

[StrugglingTilMyReward]

Not all churches do this. Denominational churches can have that as a standard. Not necessarily TULIP, but a statement of faith or a theological formula they ascribe to as a congregation under a Denominational umbrella.

If you use a search engine and the search criteria, TULIP doctrine, or theology, or formula, most engines post Calvinist references immediately. BING was an exception, though Calvinism is inevitable to show up on page one of a search regardless.
who invented TULIP doctrine

I've referred to Apologetics Press a number of times in different threads concerning the topic of TULIP and Calvinism. Repasted here for your consideration. This source I like because they refute the five points of TULIP with scripture.

TULIP posted below:

The Church I attend has a wonderful statement of faith I believe: Rooted in Christ to impact community through relationships.

 

[cv5]

The Church I attend has a wonderful statement of faith I believe: Rooted in Christ to impact community through relationships.

That is not much of a statement of faith.

This is a statement of faith...

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/

 

[StrugglingTilMyReward]

That is not much of a statement of faith.

This is a statement of faith...

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/westminster-confession-faith/

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a competition

 

[Whispered]

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a competition

I wouldn't think it would be either. The prior post link to Ligonier ministries, a Calvinist church, is that of the Westminster Confession of faith.
Example: (Bold underline "and those only", is my edit. (That pasted below and the first sentence, imo, speaks contrary to the scripture wherein we are told, God is no respecter of persons.)
Chapter X.
Of Effectual Calling.

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call,(a) by His Word and Spirit,(b) out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;(c) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,(d) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;(e) renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power determining them to that which is good,(f) and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ) yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.(h)

Personally, I think your church confession of faith was simple and lovely. Thank you for posting that here. Sorry I'm late in showing my appreciation.

 

[cv5]

I wouldn't think it would be either. The prior post link to Ligonier ministries, a Calvinist church, is that of the Westminster Confession of faith.
Example: (Bold underline "and those only", is my edit. (That pasted below and the first sentence, imo, speaks contrary to the scripture wherein we are told, God is no respecter of persons.)
Chapter X.
Of Effectual Calling.

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call,(a) by His Word and Spirit,(b) out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;(c) enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,(d) taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;(e) renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power determining them to that which is good,(f) and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ) yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.(h)

Personally, I think your church confession of faith was simple and lovely. Thank you for posting that here. Sorry I'm late in showing my appreciation.

So much for Councils, Synods and scholarship eh?

 

[TooFastTurtle]

​

Sorry cant quote the full thing iit says message too long.........

Great post. Well done.

This is precisely what I meant when I said that I disagree with ALL points of the TULIP. This is the reason: I find them unbiblical

 

[Whispered]

So much for Councils, Synods and scholarship eh?

Likely so in the case of that confession.
Powerful thing exampled as ego-centrism and pride.
To imagine one or many men are able to convene and then codify the supreme power within and behind all existence, unto the confines of their "confession", so as to delineate that supreme power's identity according to their preference.
And of course, their final creation loves them best. And only. And did before anything was created by that power at all.

 

[garee]

Total Depravity

= All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Bible Responses

Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”

Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”

Yes morally lacking because of the lack of spiritual vision( no faith coming from God not seen)

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam because God corrupted their flesh and spirit. Giving them a temporal life through their parents and therefore they are spiritually unable to see past the end of the nose. Those who have been given a new born again spirit and heart have the treasure of the power of the authority of God in them. It simply is not of us.

Christ our confidence must do the first work which continues to the end. (Philippians 1:6) They then can choose to follow the voice of God not seen God and be saved. And not because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality to include the imagination of their hard hearts .No faith . . which needed to hear the voice of God and therefore seek after Him.

Of ones own will no man will seek to understand. They cannot.

The faith needed when moved by God as it is written .It represents the holy place of glory

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans 3:10-11

 

[Dino246]

Yes morally lacking because of the lack of spiritual vision( no faith coming from God not seen)

A quick note: if you mess with the quotation box the wrong way, the person to whom you are responding will not be notified of your response and may not see it.

You need to preserve the entire first section, like this, QUOTE="garee, post: 4086523, member: 237842 with the square brackets around it, like this [ ].

 

[cv5]

Likely so in the case of that confession.
Powerful thing exampled as ego-centrism and pride.
To imagine one or many men are able to convene and then codify the supreme power within and behind all existence, unto the confines of their "confession", so as to delineate that supreme power's identity according to their preference.
And of course, their final creation loves them best. And only. And did before anything was created by that power at all.

Does your same criticism apply to the Council of Jerusalem Acts 15?
Scholarship is one of the Gifts to the Church (wise men and scribes).
IMO a lack of scholarship is presently a severe crisis in the Church today. Anybody can conjure up any doctrine on a whim nowadays.

You do realize that David was a student at Samuels School of the Prophets, where he learned theology, music, administration and war?

 

[StrugglingTilMyReward]

FWIW my Church's (our congregation, not the CRC as a whole) statement: Rooted in Christ to impact community through relationships, this isn't a statement of faith, its presented as a 'vision statement' for our congregation.

 

[Sipsey]

Does your same criticism apply to the Council of Jerusalem Acts 15?
Scholarship is one of the Gifts to the Church (wise men and scribes).
IMO a lack of scholarship is presently a severe crisis in the Church today. Anybody can conjure up any doctrine on a whim nowadays.

You do realize that David was a student at Samuels School of the Prophets, where he learned theology, music, administration and war?

May I ask the source of your assertion that David was a “student” in Samual's school?

 

[Jimbone]

Likely so in the case of that confession.
Powerful thing exampled as ego-centrism and pride.
To imagine one or many men are able to convene and then codify the supreme power within and behind all existence, unto the confines of their "confession", so as to delineate that supreme power's identity according to their preference.
And of course, their final creation loves them best. And only. And did before anything was created by that power at all.

Well maybe some look at it like that and if they're truly in Jesus then He will guide them to correction, but it is also just the way you are looking at it too. You're projecting a bit here as well, are you not?
Maybe some just look at it like this, and I would rather post ALL chapter 9, but here's 14-24

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I mean God is sovereign right? Tells us the end from the beginning, the Creator and Keeper of everything. He is in control and we don't like that, and this is a very personal point for me because of how He saved me. He granted me repentance, He brought me to my knees in a time where I already thought I had done the "Christian thing", when in fact I had no idea who Jesus was at all, and when I hit my knees I was not even thinking about God or Jesus. When I hit my knees it was in a completely broken, defeated, hopeless, powerlessness, "I quit life" heap on the floor, I was only stuck because I couldn't leave my two sons with "my dad killed himself". It wasn't until the next day at work when at lunch time it hit me like a pallet of bricks, after two years I hadn't thought about killing myself all day. It was at that exact moment that I realized, and now I know this was His Spirit testifying but then I had no clue how I knew, but whatever had happened it was God, and I KNEW Jesus was His Son.

So people see things from different angles, it's the beauty of His living word and I hope this will do something to help understand a different perspective. I look forward to hearing yours too, if you have anything to share.

 

[cv5]

FWIW my Church's (our congregation, not the CRC as a whole) statement: Rooted in Christ to impact community through relationships, this isn't a statement of faith, its presented as a 'vision statement' for our congregation.

I do not see ANYTHING there regarding the necessity of being redeemed from inevitable eternal condemnation.