3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[cv5]

Me, me, me...chapter 9 has nothing to do with salvation, but the election of Israel as God’s nation to bring forth the promised seed.

Aaahhhmmm......that is exactly what I said. Gods Sovereign Choice in the election (and preservation) of His designated seed. Which of course leads eventually to the Church which consists of Gentile and converted Israelites.

I said absolutely nothing about Salvation, however it is the result of the foregoing.

 

[cv5]

Point out where Romans 9 upholds TULIP in its entirety.
And just to save time, I'm not Arminian. Nor should it be assumed that anyone who opposes Calvin's doctrine or the TULIP formula are.

"Calvin's doctrine or the TULIP"

You missed the major salient points of this thread. Tragic.

 

[Whispered]

The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


Tenets of Calvinism

• Sovereignty of God
• Total Inherited Depravity of Man
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints

More Refuting Calvinism

• Responses to the Calvinist (FAQ)
• Analysis of Romans 9
• Why I am not a Calvinist
• “Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?”
• Why I Love Jeff Bethke, But Hate Error

Analysis of Romans 9 and Calvinistic Arguments


Introduction

While studying Bible passages about Calvinism, God’s sovereignty, and man's free will, Calvinists frequently turn to Romans 9 as a favorite proof-text. The chapter contains multiple passages, which appear to support Calvinism. Therefore, this article will analyze the entire chapter in its context, discussing the arguments raised by Calvinists.

Careful examination of the context of Romans 9 reveals that Paul was explaining God’s right to predetermine and use the nation of Israel to produce the Messiah. The Jews profited greatly from this arrangement; however, such a relationship did not guarantee God’s mercy unto salvation. God maintained and exercised His right to use nations to accomplish His promise to Abraham, and furthermore, He demonstrated His prerogative to save individuals as He deemed best. As long as Israel would seek to establish their own righteousness by the law of Moses, over-emphasizing their national part in God’s plan, they would fail to be saved. God’s promise for mercy was ultimately extended to whomever would live by faith, not necessarily those who required the law of Moses, nor necessarily those who descended from Abraham.

The spiritual salvation of individuals, especially a predestined, unconditional election, is not the subject of Romans 9. Vindication of God’s judgment regarding the nation of Israel is the primary point. However, detailed analysis of the immediate context, plus the context of the Old Testament passages, which Paul quoted, clearly teaches that God’s mercy has always been conditioned upon man's repentance.
[More Reading]


Since there is a thread directed at the Arminians here.

Günther Juncker, “How Romans 11 Refutes Calvinism”
According to Calvinism, Rom 11:5-7 teaches double predestination. On the one hand there is a “remnant” that is elect and has been “chosen” for salvation from before the foundation of the world. And on the other hand there is “the rest” who are the non-elect, or reprobate, who have been created and irreversibly predestined to hell. The reprobate by definition cannot be saved because God does not want them saved. He does not love them (rather he “hates” them) and Jesus did not die for them. These God justly “hardens,” like Pharaoh, to keep from salvation since God does not want them saved but in hell.


According to Paul, however, “the rest” who are not elect and not “chosen” can be saved. In fact, many of them will be saved. Saving them is, from one angle, the very point of the Gentile mission! If Paul is correct then Calvinism is, in a word, refuted. Clearly if “the rest” can be saved, then they are not the reprobate of Calvinistic double predestination theology. The fact that some are “chosen” does not entail that others are irreversibly reprobated or “rejected.” Since the chosen “remnant” actually comes from the ranks of “the rest” it is thus not enough to say, as any Calvinist could say, that the existence of a remnant proves that God has not rejected Israel. It is specifically “the rest,” described in detail in the immediately preceding paragraph (Rom 10:16-21), that God has not rejected. But how to be sure? Simple. Follow the pronouns in Romans 11 to see what Paul himself actually says about “the rest.” God loves them. He shows mercy to them. He desires that they be saved. Some of them can and will be saved. [More Reading]

 

[cv5]

No, it isn't.
Picture the god John Calvin extolled and using TULIP.
That's not the Omniscient Omni-Benevolent Creator of the world. That's the adverse of the Omni-Benevolent Creator of the world.

Your rant is nothing less than adolescent misbegotten rubbish, fraught with terrifying implications.

The question being begged is: who else is qualified to choose the elect?
Answer: nobody else but God Himself. Not fallen depraved men, not misguided theologians, not you and not me.

And He did. Yes indeed He did.

BTW...the apostles were under the impression that they chose Christ. Christ of course corrected their error....all duly recorded for all of us to consider.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Doesn't get any clearer than that. Yet the persistent fog of delusion remains.

 

[Whispered]

"Calvin's doctrine or the TULIP"

You missed the major salient points of this thread. Tragic.

How pathetic you'd afford a false statement and think it righteous.
You're not aware that TULIP preceded Calvin. Don't put what you have missed onto me.

 

[Whispered]

Your rant is nothing less than adolescent misbegotten rubbish, fraught with terrifying implications.

The question being begged is: who else is qualified to choose the elect?
Answer: nobody else but God Himself. Not fallen depraved men, not misguided theologians, not you and not me.

And He did. Yes indeed He did.

BTW...the apostles were under the impression that they chose Christ. Christ of course corrected their error....all duly recorded for all of us to consider.

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

Doesn't get any clearer than that. Yet the persistent fog of delusion remains.

Oh, my, how hate filled you are. Bearing false witness and now a hate filled screed that does nothing to erase the fact your tactics do not overcome the motives behind your presence in this thread. What you hold in faith is what has made you what you are.

Tragic indeed. Exercise what compels you upon someone else. They shall be in my prayers. Jesus died even for you. May you find the truth of God in Christ.

 

[cv5]

The Book of 2nd Timothy chapter 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


Tenets of Calvinism

• Sovereignty of God
• Total Inherited Depravity of Man
• Unconditional Election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace
• Perseverance of the Saints

More Refuting Calvinism

• Responses to the Calvinist (FAQ)
• Analysis of Romans 9
• Why I am not a Calvinist
• “Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?”
• Why I Love Jeff Bethke, But Hate Error

Analysis of Romans 9 and Calvinistic Arguments


Introduction

While studying Bible passages about Calvinism, God’s sovereignty, and man's free will, Calvinists frequently turn to Romans 9 as a favorite proof-text. The chapter contains multiple passages, which appear to support Calvinism. Therefore, this article will analyze the entire chapter in its context, discussing the arguments raised by Calvinists.

Careful examination of the context of Romans 9 reveals that Paul was explaining God’s right to predetermine and use the nation of Israel to produce the Messiah. The Jews profited greatly from this arrangement; however, such a relationship did not guarantee God’s mercy unto salvation. God maintained and exercised His right to use nations to accomplish His promise to Abraham, and furthermore, He demonstrated His prerogative to save individuals as He deemed best. As long as Israel would seek to establish their own righteousness by the law of Moses, over-emphasizing their national part in God’s plan, they would fail to be saved. God’s promise for mercy was ultimately extended to whomever would live by faith, not necessarily those who required the law of Moses, nor necessarily those who descended from Abraham.

The spiritual salvation of individuals, especially a predestined, unconditional election, is not the subject of Romans 9. Vindication of God’s judgment regarding the nation of Israel is the primary point. However, detailed analysis of the immediate context, plus the context of the Old Testament passages, which Paul quoted, clearly teaches that God’s mercy has always been conditioned upon man's repentance.
[More Reading]


Since there is a thread directed at the Arminians here.

Günther Juncker, “How Romans 11 Refutes Calvinism”
According to Calvinism, Rom 11:5-7 teaches double predestination. On the one hand there is a “remnant” that is elect and has been “chosen” for salvation from before the foundation of the world. And on the other hand there is “the rest” who are the non-elect, or reprobate, who have been created and irreversibly predestined to hell. The reprobate by definition cannot be saved because God does not want them saved. He does not love them (rather he “hates” them) and Jesus did not die for them. These God justly “hardens,” like Pharaoh, to keep from salvation since God does not want them saved but in hell.


According to Paul, however, “the rest” who are not elect and not “chosen” can be saved. In fact, many of them will be saved. Saving them is, from one angle, the very point of the Gentile mission! If Paul is correct then Calvinism is, in a word, refuted. Clearly if “the rest” can be saved, then they are not the reprobate of Calvinistic double predestination theology. The fact that some are “chosen” does not entail that others are irreversibly reprobated or “rejected.” Since the chosen “remnant” actually comes from the ranks of “the rest” it is thus not enough to say, as any Calvinist could say, that the existence of a remnant proves that God has not rejected Israel. It is specifically “the rest,” described in detail in the immediately preceding paragraph (Rom 10:16-21), that God has not rejected. But how to be sure? Simple. Follow the pronouns in Romans 11 to see what Paul himself actually says about “the rest.” God loves them. He shows mercy to them. He desires that they be saved. Some of them can and will be saved. [More Reading]

So you are saying that the bible doesn't say what it undoubtedly says?
Sorry...I can't work with that.

 

[oldethennew]

ah, here is yet another thread that asks each-other to step up onto the merry-go-round of
'never quite answering questions and accusations and trying to insert doubts into the hearts
of those who don't quite have the same beliefs!!!
as it is written:
1COR. 1:10.
Now I beseech you, 'brethren', by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
and in the same Judgment.

 

[cv5]

Oh, my, how hate filled you are. Bearing false witness and now a hate filled screed that does nothing to erase the fact your tactics do not overcome the motives behind your presence in this thread. What you hold in faith is what has made you what you are.

Tragic indeed. Exercise what compels you upon someone else. They shall be in my prayers. Jesus died even for you. May you find the truth of God in Christ.

OOOhhhh kay. I guess that is your well worn escape clause.
Good luck avoiding the truth in the future, it will find you out nevertheless.

 

[Whispered]

The Points of Calvinism: Retrospect and Prospect
Kenneth J. Stewart, Ph.D., Professor of Theological Studies , Covenant College, Lookout Mountain Georgia, U.S.

 

[Whispered]

ah, here is yet another thread that asks each-other to step up onto the merry-go-round of
'never quite answering questions and accusations and trying to insert doubts into the hearts
of those who don't quite have the same beliefs!!!
as it is written:
1COR. 1:10.
Now I beseech you, 'brethren', by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
and in the same Judgment.

And you enter in and demonstrate precisely what you've fashioned as an accusation.

No, this thread was started to refute what was happening in other threads before you entered.
People have answered questions for all these many pages, and provided proofs to support those answers.
We who have participated in that way know this. People who wish to interject conflict yet again post as you do. The irony is that you posted from 1st Corinthians chapter 1 after committing to the effort it condemns.

 

[cv5]

ah, here is yet another thread that asks each-other to step up onto the merry-go-round of
'never quite answering questions and accusations and trying to insert doubts into the hearts
of those who don't quite have the same beliefs!!!
as it is written:
1COR. 1:10.
Now I beseech you, 'brethren', by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
and in the same Judgment.

Fortunately we are not burning and drowning each other to prove a point.

The fact is: God is doing the choosing and electing. That is His purview, as it is a task vastly beyond our scope and power. We are doing the believing and faithful obedience. That is our purview, however the "drawing" and even the faith to do so is a gift from God.

John 6:29
Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Eph 2

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Indeed, we were "dead"....utterly powerless, utterly impotent.
Question: are you capable of creating life or resurrecting yourself?

 

[John146]

Fortunately we are not burning and drowning each other to prove a point.

The fact is: God is doing the choosing and electing. That is His purview, as it is a task vastly beyond our scope and power. We are doing the believing and faithful obedience. That is our purview, however the "drawing" and even the faith to do so is a gift from God.

John 6:29
Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Eph 2

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Indeed, we were "dead"....utterly powerless, utterly impotent.
Question: are you capable of creating life or resurrecting yourself?

Can you post Scripture where election is tied directly to salvation? Thanks.

 

[cv5]

Can you post Scripture where election is tied directly to salvation? Thanks.

I just did. Eph 2 for starters. All of the saved are elect BTW.

1 Pet 2
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

To whom is Peter addressing this statement? To the Elect (aka Christians in this context) or some other group of people?

 

[John146]

I just did. Eph 2 for starters. All of the saved are elect BTW.

1 Pet 2
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

To whom is Peter addressing this statement? To the Elect (aka Christians in this context) or some other group of people?

Ephesians 1 does not have election in it, and the choosing in verse 4 is about heavenly blessings in Christ, not salvation. The heavenly blessings found in him, in Christ are what God has chosen.

1 Peter passage is about Israel, not the Church. A holy nation is never a description of the body of Christ.

 

[cv5]

Ephesians 1 does not have election in it, and the choosing in verse 4 is about heavenly blessings in Christ, not salvation. The heavenly blessings found in him, in Christ are what God has chosen.

1 Peter passage is about Israel, not the Church. A holy nation is never a description of the body of Christ.

Ephesians 2! "by grace you have been SAVED"

Peter is unquestionably addressing the Church.
They are converted Jews. All those saved post-resurrection are Christians.
The Law of Moses is now obsolete, and the New Covenant is in full force and the only means of salvation. Paul makes it crystal clear....there is no Jew Greek bond free male or female. No special status is granted, nor is there any diminished party.

Rev 1:6 refers to all the redeemed in Christ.

 

[Whispered]

Ephesians 1 does not have election in it, and the choosing in verse 4 is about heavenly blessings in Christ, not salvation. The heavenly blessings found in him, in Christ are what God has chosen.

1 Peter passage is about Israel, not the Church. A holy nation is never a description of the body of Christ.

Going forward, this may help you understand the adversity you encounter. And why.

Hyper-Calvinism

The Hyper-Calvinist emphasizes the sovereignty of God to such an extent that man's human responsibility is denied. In actuality, Hyper-Calvinism is a rejection of historic Calvinist thought. Hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel call applies to all; and/or denies that faith is the duty of every sinner; and/or denies the gospel offer to the non-elect; and/or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal; and/or denies that there is such a thing as "common grace"; and/or denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect. Calvinists do not agree with the Hyper-Calvinists.


This may also assist.

Ephesians 1
Theme
Paul summarizes his gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone and describes the nature and role of the church in God's eternal plan.
Overview
This book answers the question men and women have asked throughout all time: Why am I here? The answer has to do with eternity, making peace with God and understanding the believer’s new identity in Christ. The NIV Quest Study Bible says Paul wrote this letter to believers in Ephesus (a city in modern-day Turkey) to encourage them to think of themselves in a whole new way. He wanted them to think of themselves not as people who had once been involved in idol worship, illicit sex, and foolish philosophies, but as people in Christ—people with a radically new identity. The book offers practical ways to live in unity with God and others.


1 Peter 2
Theme
Peter gives instructions on holy living for those suffering persecution.
Overview
First Peter teaches that God can use difficulties to strengthen Christians and their witness. Knowing this can bring hope. The NIV Quest Study Bible encourages you to read 1 Peter to discover how faith, refined by suffering, can help you see the Lord more clearly. It gives valuable advice for holding firm in difficult times. The apostle Peter saw that increasing hardship and persecution had scattered believers, which spread their witness but caused some to wonder if God had abandoned them. Peter wrote to encourage them, offering them hope and meaning in the midst of their suffering.

 

[cv5]

Ephesians 1 does not have election in it, and the choosing in verse 4 is about heavenly blessings in Christ, not salvation. The heavenly blessings found in him, in Christ are what God has chosen.

1 Peter passage is about Israel, not the Church. A holy nation is never a description of the body of Christ.

Are you out of your mind?
Ephesians Ch 1 is boilerplate salvation aka redemption via ELECTION. Unequivocally, unabashedly, unreservedly, unerringly, unmistakably.

Ephesians Ch 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons (SALVATION) through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

[Whispered]

Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel


"....The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (Calvin Institutes 3:21:5: 06 all emphasis in this article is mine) By "mine", that is the author of the article's post script, not mine)



[***]

" “The Doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms ‘elect’ and ‘election’ imply the terms ‘non-elect’ and ‘reprobation’. When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter…Those who hold the doctrine of Election but deny that of Reprobation can lay but little claim to consistency. To affirm the former while denying the latter makes the decree of predestination an illogical and lop-sided decree. The creed which states the former but denies the latter will resemble a wounded eagle attempting to fly with but one wing.” (Loraine Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination 1932 from 2000 bible study centre™ DIGITAL LIBRARY p. 104-5)

The good news, however, is that “election, elect, chosen” (and the derivatives) are terms that have nothing to do with one’s eternal destiny. Scripture does speak at length of “the elect” and “the chosen” but these terms are devoid of the Calvinistic sense of someone who has been chosen to receive eternal life. The term elect and its derivatives therefore are not salvific in meaning but simply refer to persons or things that are chosen for a particular purpose and the purpose has nothing to do with eternal life. Once the definition of the word is established biblically, the foundation of Calvinism will be undermined and will collapse and arguing the tenants of TULIP will become inapplicable. The word elect (Greek verb: eklegomai ἐκλέγομαι; Hebrew verb: bakharבָּחַר) means to choose, select. The elect or chosen (as nouns or adjectives) are those people or things that have been elected, selected, or chosen for a particular purpose by someone. Scripture bears witness that elect and its derivatives have nothing to do with someone being chosen specifically to eternal life...." Full Article


About the Author:
Douglas Hamp earned his M.A. in the Bible and its World from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and his PhD in Biblical Studies from Louisiana Baptist University. He served as an assistant pastor at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa for six years, where he lectured and developed curriculum at the School of Ministry, Spanish School of Ministry and Calvary Chapel Bible College Graduate School. He is the author of numerous books, articles, & DVDs and has appeared on national and international TV, radio, and internet programs in English and in Spanish. He is senior pastor of the Way Congregation in Wheat Ridge, CO.

 

[Flint321]

Are you out of your mind?
Ephesians Ch 1 is boilerplate salvation aka redemption via ELECTION. Unequivocally, unabashedly, unreservedly, unerringly, unmistakably.

Ephesians Ch 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons (SALVATION) through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Actually, this could also mean that God chose us in Him, in the sense of determining in Christ these blessings before creation, not in the sense that God actually put us (the elect) in Him to be in these blessings before creation.

The real meat of the matter is Romans 9.... thats the best place to show forth the doctrine of election, since Arminian type people have explanations for all these texts aswell, yet in Romans 9 they gotta do some massive hoop jumping, to support there half righteous and half wicked theology.