50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Truth7t7

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..... and His Kingdom, that's what Paul said "God will bring us with Him when He comes to judge the quick and the dead."

YOU say He will not bring His Kingdom, YOU say there will be no Kingdom to bring. IF

IF He brings His Kingdom with Him when He comes to judge the quick and the dead where have they been those 1, 000 years?
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God
, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.
Thanks for your answer: so if you are mistaken on your theory and Jesus does come first, (imminent) you will not be looking for Him. Better read that last verse of Hebrews 9 again!
 

Runningman

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We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.
Accepting the scripture of 2 Thessalonians 2 at face value is not in the pre-tirb theology. Actually, 2 Thess. 2 debunks their theology and would require them to rethink everything they thought they knew about eschatology.

All we can do is present people with the truth and hopefully something sticks.
 

Absolutely

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I heard it straight from the Master. I think I will trust Him over you. sorry.

If you wish to call it a proclamation, it still goes that John wrote, "no man was FOUND."

It would seem, if no one was "found" then someone was "looking."
"Found worthy"
Not "found"

There was no house to house search.

"God told me" ....nobody here knows that. You realize most of the error on this board and elsewhere believe they also are divinely guided????

NOTHING THERE ABOUT ANY SEARCH.
NO SEARCH WAS MADE

"""I heard it straight from the Master. I think I will trust Him over you. sorry."""


God told you he looked and questioned every man on the planet and in heaven????
And Gods search was a failure????

But lets play this out.
You say you and you alone were given this "insight" correct???

You and you alone are correct that the white horse rider is the church and not the ac???
Nobody else is privy to Gods plan correct?
That is exactly what I have been saying all along. It is why John was weeping. That search ended in failure. The Big question - the VERY question Jesus asked me is WHY was He not found in that search?


That does not mean God could not do something different for these elders.

It turns out this is not an easy passage. They are seen before Jesus ascended and after He ascended.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I am not reading into that passage His ascension because it also says He sent the Holy Spirit down. Doesn't that nail it down? He was not seen in heaven in chapter 4, and from chapter 5 we learn why: he was still on earth "prevailing." I say prevailing over death. Then in the next scene, He suddenly appears in the throne room and the Holy Spirit is immediately sent down. I did not read an ascension into the passage. John wrote it in! ;)
It does not say "He sent," only "sent." But since these sentence follow His sudden appearance, it is just as if God wants us to see His ascension and then the Spirit sent down.

Thinking back on the days Jesus taught me this passage, several months of time, maybe 4 of 5 hours a day because I was working then, for the longest time I could not see "timing," nor could I see the "movement of time." I could then not answer His three questions. It was because I was thinking "future" (like most here) when God and John was thinking History. TDW, are you now thinking "history?" After all, history was when the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Please keep in mind, these two chapters are presented to us as they were to John, EXACTLY in every point the way God wanted. I am convinced, "every jot and tittle" as the scriptures say. God leaves it up to us - with the Holy Spirit's help, to see what God wants us to see. I am convinced that John wanted to introduce John to the book, here, just the way He introduced John to the Dragon in chapter 12, and the Beasts in chapter 13.

God chose to start the vision of the book while the book was still in the hand of the Father. If that was before the ascension - and I believe it was - Then somehow God has to show a throne room of the past. I think that is what He did. There are certainly parts I do not understand. However, I certainly understand "not seen," the Holy Spirit there, and a search where no man was found.

I agree; the many were only a sampling of the OT saints.
There was no search made.
All heaven knew there was only one God man.
No search is alluded to in those verses.
No failure alluded to.
It is straight declaration.

" none found worthy"

No need for God to search or send searchers.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.
Hello Evmur,

The key to understanding 2 Thess.2:1-4, is by paying attention to the details of the context. Paul starts off with the following:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him," which of course is speaking in regards to the Lord's appearing to gather the church. Then he says:

"not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."

Most people don't catch the change that Paul makes between "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" vs. "The Day of the Lord."

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him = The blessed event where the church is caught up and taken to heaven

The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath

So, it is "the Day of the Lord" that will not come until the apostasy occurs and that man of lawlessness is revealed.

The reason why Paul starts off with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him" is because there were false teachers proclaiming that the "Day of the Lord" had already come, i.e. the time of God's wrath. So, the Thessalonians were concerned with the teaching about the Day of the Lord, because they knew from Paul's teaching that the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him would take place first. So, they wrote to Paul basically saying, "Hey Paul, we have men here who are saying that the Day of the Lord has already come, so why weren't we caught up to meet the Lord in the air first as you taught us?" Because they had not been caught up, they were concerned that they were now stuck in the time of God's wrath, i.e. the day of the Lord.

Because many don't notice the change, they believe that the scripture is saying "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him will not take place until the apostacy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, but it's not saying that! What it is saying is that "the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, will not take place until the apostasy occurs and that man of lawlessness is revealed."

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the Day of the Lord, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. The event of the appearing of the Lord to gather the church will usher in the Day of the Lord, which again is the time of God's wrath.
 

Nehemiah6

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"not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
The King James Bible and the Received Text are correct in showing "the day of Christ" in this verse.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand [present].
εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοὸς, μητὲ θροεῖσθαι, μήτε διὰ πνεύματος, μήτε διὰ λόγου, μήτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι’ ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ·

This fits into the context of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". This can only refer to the Rapture, and the "day of Christ" is a reference to the Rapture. This is a distinguishing term.

But "the day of the Lord" (properly "the day of the LORD (YHWH)" as found in the OT) refers to the Great Tribulation, therefore it is incorrect in this context. Paul is not talking about the Great Tribulation. He is addressing the concern of Christians who had been falsely told that the Rapture had already occurred, which would have meant that they had been left behind. So he his calming them down.

He is also telling them in this chapter that the Rapture will come after the Apostasy or falling away of Christendom, which will then be followed by the revelation of the Antichrist. However, the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". Which also means that the true Church will be taken out of the way at the same time (at the Resurrection/Rapture). The Church will be absent from the earth when the Antichrist takes total control for 3 1/2 years.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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But "the day of the Lord" (properly "the day of the LORD (YHWH)" as found in the OT) refers to the Great Tribulation, therefore it is incorrect in this context. Paul is not talking about the Great Tribulation. He is addressing the concern of Christians who had been falsely told that the Rapture had already occurred, which would have meant that they had been left behind. So he his calming them down.
It "fits" the context in the following ways:

--to have been told (by false conveyors) "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" would EXACTLY "FIT" with their present, and ONGOING, very negative circumstances they were ENDURING per 1:4 (same context!), thus making it a PERFECTLY REASONABLE thing for them to be persuaded is TRUE (tho it wasn't true);

--NOTHING in their present experience gave any evidence whatsoever that "Rapture" had already occurred, nor its aftermath now being in existence in their experience (no believers, less population, etc)... all they had to do would be to LOOK AROUND and SEE that EXACTLY NO ONE had *disappeared / vanished / gone missing*... no need for Paul to have taken the time [of length!] to have written them a letter concerning such a thing... (this would not have been a CONVINCING nor REASONABLE "claim" to have been persuaded was true)
 

Blade

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We are warned by Paul not to be quickly excited in our minds and he gives the reason why

That day shall not come unless there has come the rebellion and the man of sin be first revealed

The son of perdition will oppose everything called god and everything worshipped as god and he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God. THEN the Lord will come and destroy him.

So those who say Jesus may come at any minute or who say it is the next great event are wrong. Paul's message to such is 2don't be deceived"

I look at the signs and I see the time is near but these things must happen first.
Hello Evmur :) We tend to hold on to or believe someone that matches our personal belief. 2 Thes 2:3 Day of the lord, falling way first, man of sin. "First" in this case is as in sequence verse 3. So the first thing after the day of the Lord will be the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. Since this had not happened the thessalonians could still expect the Rapture(caught up)

Falling away, some take it as religious apostasy the abandonment of spiritual religion that gives the Antichrist the opportunity to take over. Others take it to be rebellion against truth and justice against God. Apostasia can also mean "take away" "departure".

So when it comes to 2nd Thes 2:3 we must note the fact about the word "apostasia" can also mean (your definition) It would be a error to say Apostasia only means (insert your personal belief). Also searching some early manuscripts have "man of lawlessness" not "man of sin".

So if we are to have a discussion about "Caught up" I would be in error to say it only means "take away/departure" or "fallen away" and yes some bibles did have still have "departure" not apostasia. Paul was a very wise man of God and it was not his writing but the holy Spirit that said "we which remain". Not them or they which remain but "we". For me I must take note of that simple fact.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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The King James Bible and the Received Text are correct in showing "the day of Christ" in this verse.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand [present].
εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοὸς, μητὲ θροεῖσθαι, μήτε διὰ πνεύματος, μήτε διὰ λόγου, μήτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι’ ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ·

This fits into the context of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". This can only refer to the Rapture, and the "day of Christ" is a reference to the Rapture. This is a distinguishing term.

But "the day of the Lord" (properly "the day of the LORD (YHWH)" as found in the OT) refers to the Great Tribulation, therefore it is incorrect in this context. Paul is not talking about the Great Tribulation. He is addressing the concern of Christians who had been falsely told that the Rapture had already occurred, which would have meant that they had been left behind. So he his calming them down.

He is also telling them in this chapter that the Rapture will come after the Apostasy or falling away of Christendom, which will then be followed by the revelation of the Antichrist. However, the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". Which also means that the true Church will be taken out of the way at the same time (at the Resurrection/Rapture). The Church will be absent from the earth when the Antichrist takes total control for 3 1/2 years.
I agreed with you up until you said the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and the pre-trib rapture. Removing the Holy Spirit from Christianity creates some problems.

For one, the two witnesses in the great tribulation will perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. For two, there will be saints in the great tribulation who are born again believers. Can't have the two witnesses or born again believers if the Holy Spirit is removed.

The apostasy of the church will require real Christians to abandon their faith. Fakers who are merely displaying an outward show of faith by walking the walk and talking the talk can't fall away from something they don't sincerely believe in.

This means real church members will fall away before the anti-Christ is revealed and then Jesus comes and gathers whatever remains of His church.

Whoever the restrainer is doesn't prevent the apostasy of the church, but rather prevents the advancement of the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ comes after the workings of the devil himself. So, in effect, the restrainer is someone holding the devil back.

If the restrainer is not God then there is only one "he" who is capable of restraining the devil. I theorize the restrainer could be Michael the archangel.
 

Truth7t7

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The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the Day of the Lord, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. The event of the appearing of the Lord to gather the church will usher in the Day of the Lord, which again is the time of God's wrath.
Your claim that the Church will be raptured to heaven before (The Day Of The Lord) is "False"

As Paul clearly explains below, the Church will be present on earth, sober and watching for (The Day Of The Lord)

1 Thessalonians 5:1-6KJV
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
 

Truth7t7

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The Church will be absent from the earth when the Antichrist takes total control for 3 1/2 years.
Your claim is "False", there is no pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven found in the scripture, a false teaching of man, John N. Darby & Adulterer C.I. Scofield in (Dispensationalism)

The Church will be present on earth during the tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the second coming of Jesus Christ, looking up as redemption draws nigh

Luke 21:25-27KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Accepting the scripture of 2 Thessalonians 2 at face value is not in the pre-tirb theology. Actually, 2 Thess. 2 debunks their theology and would require them to rethink everything they thought they knew about eschatology.

All we can do is present people with the truth and hopefully something sticks.
Studying to show oneself approved is.

For example, HOW does the man of sin get revealed in verse 3b? Care to give it a shot?
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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I agreed with you up until you said the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and the pre-trib rapture. Removing the Holy Spirit from Christianity creates some problems.

For one, the two witnesses in the great tribulation will perform miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. For two, there will be saints in the great tribulation who are born again believers. Can't have the two witnesses or born again believers if the Holy Spirit is removed.

The apostasy of the church will require real Christians to abandon their faith. Fakers who are merely displaying an outward show of faith by walking the walk and talking the talk can't fall away from something they don't sincerely believe in.

This means real church members will fall away before the anti-Christ is revealed and then Jesus comes and gathers whatever remains of His church.

Whoever the restrainer is doesn't prevent the apostasy of the church, but rather prevents the advancement of the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ comes after the workings of the devil himself. So, in effect, the restrainer is someone holding the devil back.

If the restrainer is not God then there is only one "he" who is capable of restraining the devil. I theorize the restrainer could be Michael the archangel.
How absolutely amazing!

Paul wrote, "and now you KNOW what is restraining" (who that mysterious restrainer is) and you still don't know.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Hello Evmur :) We tend to hold on to or believe someone that matches our personal belief. 2 Thes 2:3 Day of the lord, falling way first, man of sin. "First" in this case is as in sequence verse 3. So the first thing after the day of the Lord will be the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. Since this had not happened the thessalonians could still expect the Rapture(caught up)

Falling away, some take it as religious apostasy the abandonment of spiritual religion that gives the Antichrist the opportunity to take over. Others take it to be rebellion against truth and justice against God. Apostasia can also mean "take away" "departure".

So when it comes to 2nd Thes 2:3 we must note the fact about the word "apostasia" can also mean (your definition) It would be a error to say Apostasia only means (insert your personal belief). Also searching some early manuscripts have "man of lawlessness" not "man of sin".

So if we are to have a discussion about "Caught up" I would be in error to say it only means "take away/departure" or "fallen away" and yes some bibles did have still have "departure" not apostasia. Paul was a very wise man of God and it was not his writing but the holy Spirit that said "we which remain". Not them or they which remain but "we". For me I must take note of that simple fact.
There there are the points "easy readers" miss:
1. Paul wrote: "and now you KNOW what is restraining..." Yet so many don't.
2. Few care to explain how the man of sin or lawlessness is revealed in 3b...yet he is.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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There there are the points "easy readers" miss:
1. Paul wrote: "and now you KNOW what is restraining..." Yet so many don't.
2. Few care to explain how the man of sin or lawlessness is revealed in 3b...yet he is.
Yes he is revealed, and the Church will be present on earth to witness this revealing
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Hello Evmur :) We tend to hold on to or believe someone that matches our personal belief. 2 Thes 2:3 Day of the lord, falling way first, man of sin. "First" in this case is as in sequence verse 3. So the first thing after the day of the Lord will be the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. Since this had not happened the thessalonians could still expect the Rapture(caught up)

Falling away, some take it as religious apostasy the abandonment of spiritual religion that gives the Antichrist the opportunity to take over. Others take it to be rebellion against truth and justice against God. Apostasia can also mean "take away" "departure".

So when it comes to 2nd Thes 2:3 we must note the fact about the word "apostasia" can also mean (your definition) It would be a error to say Apostasia only means (insert your personal belief). Also searching some early manuscripts have "man of lawlessness" not "man of sin".

So if we are to have a discussion about "Caught up" I would be in error to say it only means "take away/departure" or "fallen away" and yes some bibles did have still have "departure" not apostasia. Paul was a very wise man of God and it was not his writing but the holy Spirit that said "we which remain". Not them or they which remain but "we". For me I must take note of that simple fact.
"Falling away" means a revolt, rebellion, or defection from the truth. Not a departure [of the church] in a rapture.

646. apostasia
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.​
 

lamad

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The King James Bible and the Received Text are correct in showing "the day of Christ" in this verse.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand [present].
εἰς τὸ μὴ ταχέως σαλευθῆναι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ νοὸς, μητὲ θροεῖσθαι, μήτε διὰ πνεύματος, μήτε διὰ λόγου, μήτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ὡς δι’ ἡμῶν, ὡς ὅτι ἐνέστηκεν ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ Χριστοῦ·

This fits into the context of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". This can only refer to the Rapture, and the "day of Christ" is a reference to the Rapture. This is a distinguishing term.

But "the day of the Lord" (properly "the day of the LORD (YHWH)" as found in the OT) refers to the Great Tribulation, therefore it is incorrect in this context. Paul is not talking about the Great Tribulation. He is addressing the concern of Christians who had been falsely told that the Rapture had already occurred, which would have meant that they had been left behind. So he his calming them down.

He is also telling them in this chapter that the Rapture will come after the Apostasy or falling away of Christendom, which will then be followed by the revelation of the Antichrist. However, the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". Which also means that the true Church will be taken out of the way at the same time (at the Resurrection/Rapture). The Church will be absent from the earth when the Antichrist takes total control for 3 1/2 years.
Doing a search on "the great tribulation" finds nothing in the KJV. If the bible does not use this, who do you? Jesus put it this way: "then shall be great tribulation" and in the next verse, "those days." We could then say "those days of great tribulation." You see, Jesus NEVER put a title on the last half of the week. Why? Because there are only going to be "those days" of "great tribulation."

Next, there is no verse anywhere saying the Day of the Lord is the equivalent of the days of GT.
The King James Bible and the Received Text are correct in showing "the day of Christ" in this verse.
You can say that (as if you were the author), but I find it interesting that Paul in His first letter to the Thessalonians used "The day of the Lord" in his classic rapture passage. I would therefore tend to disagree with you on your supposition - no matter how forceful you said it. They were under severe persecution which well could have made them think that the "Day of the Lord" and come and they were then in it.

Paul's argument is to tell them the REAL way to know if the Day of the Lord has started and you are now in it, would be to see a significant "departing" first, then see the man of sin revealed: once people see these two things, then then can know without any doubt, they are IN the Day of the Lord.

(What Paul did Not write is "just wait until you are raptured. Then you will all know you are in the Day of Christ."
However, the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". Which also means that the true Church will be taken out of the way at the same time (at the Resurrection/Rapture).
This is brilliant and correct. Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."

However, it seems you have missed something. HOW did the man of sin get revealed in verse 3b? Can you explain how?

Do you know that "apostasia" is a compound word? Do you know how Strong's defines both words?

It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

"of separation
...oflocal separation,

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole
...where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place
(emphasis added)

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

In other words, a "falling away" may not be what Paul was thinking at all. Anyway, all during the church age, when one "falls away" two come in. The church will be GROWING, not shrinking.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,287
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Hello again!

Well, it is very simple to deduce from the following:

"23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. "

So, the spirit of the rich man departed his body and went down into Hades as the verse above states. Therefore, since
the rich man could see Abraham and was speaking with him, then it would demonstrate that both Abraham and the rich man were in the same area. Then there is the following:

" And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

This demonstrates that there is a great chasm fixed in between the place of comfort where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, with the area of torment in flame which is where the rich man was and still is. Think of it as one big area divided by a wide trench.



See, this is the error in that, you and others interject heaven into the context where there is no mention of it. The chasm is like a ravine separating the two areas. The place of comfort/paradise was on the side where Abraham and Lazarus were. The place of comfort is the opposite side of where the rich man was.



The wicked do not go into heaven at the time of death, but just as the rich man, their spirits go down into Sheol/Hades where they will be in torment until the great white throne judgment, where at which time they will be resurrected, with their spirits being released from Hades, which is revealed in Rev.20:11-15. Here is the definition of Sheol/Hades:

===================================================

Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the spirits of the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

=======================================================

Since Abraham was speaking with the rich man, it would put them in the same place, but with a great trench separating the two areas.

The spirits of the OT saints are no longer there, but are in the presence of the Lord, waiting for the resurrection from heavenside, including all who have died in Christ.

The wicked continue to fill up Sheol/Hades 24/7 where they are in torment in flame until the judgment, where at which time they will be cast into the final place of judgment which is the lake of fire.
1620601146011.png

No, but I see the ERROR that ingnoring what it says in this verse can cause:

Malachi 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!

Also, I still think that part of the verse that speaks of "he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off" and Lazarus walking in his bosom.

That clearly indicates it was a VISION that the rich man had, seeing Abraham FAR OFF, in HEAVEN, walking with Abraham hand, in hand.
I have explained that is what mideasteners call walking in each others Bosoms. Just like President George Bush did. It is a culteral thing.
1620598932989.png

Now How do I know up is looking into Heaven ? ? ?

I had ONE and only one VISION, the night I WAS SAVED.

I usually leave this part out of my testimony out, because some people just WILL NOT UNDERSTAND IT. After my third attempt at Suicide the last week on 1977, I totally surrendered to JESUS CHRIST out of LOVE. I had a vision, and a vision is so real, you cannot tell the difference between the VISION and REALITY. I had been Pleading with HIM for Forgiveness of my whole lifestyle, for 1.5 or maybe 2 hours, as I did not look at the clock. Suddenly I was transported to the CROSS, as I was still PLEADING with HIM, and weeping. I was on my knees before HIS CROSS, and HE WAS HANGING THERE. I looked up in the VISION, and saw the nails were not in the hands as I had been taught. THEY WERE IN HIS WRISTS. No one in the Church, where I took up space on a pew, thinking that and my infant baptism made me a Christian; none of them ever even told me that in HIS wrists was an option. It was YEARS LATER when I first heard a sermon about the NAILS were in the WRIST, and that is not a contradiction, as JEWS believe the WRISTS are Part of the Hands. I SAW blood dripping from the NAILS, and it fell on my FORARMS, and I knew HE had forgiven me of all my sins. That is where the VISION ENDED.

1620598380077.png

No one can convince me that Abraham and Lazarus we in HEAVEN, and the RICH MAN was in Hades, a place for disembodied human spirits, a place of torment.
 

GodMyFortress

Active member
May 9, 2021
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The biggest flaw of the rapture theory is that the idea of it originated very late in Christianity. I’m not personally ok with a Christian belief that we can’t see any evidence of someone believing it until 1800 years after Christ’s death.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,140
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"Found worthy"
Not "found"
....
I have also noticed that no one else (I have ever seen" writes down word for word what the Lord said. I am not embarrassed that Jesus spoke to me. I have written His words over and over again on different threads. That way people can judge His words.

John wrote, "And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." I still say, John was expecting someone to be "found." Whether or not the word "search" occurs, "found" usually goes with a "search." Jesus' words to me:

"John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

You can go ahead and argue that there was no search, but Jesus called it a search and that is good enough for me. What we call it is really a side issue. What is important is WHY Jesus was not found?

There was no house to house search.
True: it was on a MUCH larger scale: heaven, then earth, then under the earth.

God told you he looked and questioned every man on the planet and in heaven????
And Gods search was a failure????
Ha ha! Not quite! Jesus was speaking about why John wept much. John was weeping because the search HE WATCHED ended in failure. That was the very reason why he was weeping. "Much" tells us it was not for a few seconds. Anyway, it was an ANGEL leading this. (We can guess that God sent the angel. )

What you are missing: Jesus is showing John EXACTLY what He wants John to see. In other words, Jesus WANTED John to see a search that ended in failure. It is up to us to come up with Jesus intent. WHY did He want John to see a search end in failure? Then Jesus be found worthy later. WHY? We probably will not find His intent by arguing details.

You say you and you alone were given this "insight" correct???

You and you alone are correct that the white horse rider is the church and not the ac???
Nobody else is privy to Gods plan correct?
I was certainly along when Jesus spoke to me. But that is not what you mean. No, I am certainly not alone in this belief or theory. There are others and the list is growing. For example, there is a book called "Red Moon Rising," by Peter Goodgame. I found he believes Revelation very much as I do. Then I found a youtube video of someone in Asia teaching Revelation and found he also was teaching the first seal is the church.

By the way, there are commentaries that agree;

Coffman Commentaries:
1. "The white horse ..." The color here is significant, for its contrasts with the colors of the other horses; and nowhere in Revelation is white used otherwise than as a symbol of purity, holiness, glory, etc. "In the book of Revelation, white is never used of anything evil."[10] The white throne upon which God sits is an example.

2. The choice of a "horse" in this symbolism means "war." It is a righteous war, for the horse was white, indicating truth and righteousness. "This war began when Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, and his disciples began to go everywhere at his command."[11]

3. The rider wore a crown which was "given to him," not a crown extorted through the atrocities of war, but a gift of God. A "crown" in the Scriptural sense upon the head of some profane conqueror is impossible to believe. Only Christ fits the picture.

4. The rider on this white horse went forth "conquering and to conquer," expressions used extensively elsewhere in the New Testament of Christ. "We feel sure that had you never heard another interpretation you would at once have said, `This is the Conquering Christ

He perhaps missed it in that it is the conquering CHURCH, not Christ per se. he continues:

Some little time has been devoted to this opening of the first seal, because the way it is interpreted will color all that follows. For example, if this crowned rider on the white horse with the bow in his hand is understood to mean Jesus Christ and his worldwide program of preaching the gospel, it is clear enough that it cannot possibly refer to some relatively short period of history, but to the entire dispensation reaching from the First Advent to the Second Advent. Thus we confidently interpret it. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14).

Expository Notes: By the white horse is generally understood the gospel, so called in regard of the divinity and spotless purity of its doctrine: the rider upon this horse is Christ, who rode swiftly in the ministry of the apostles, and other faithful teachers in the first ages of Christianity; and he rode with a bow in his hand, and a crown on his head: with a bow, that is, with threatenings and terrors denounced against his enemies before they were inflicted upon them, as the bow is first held in the hand, then the arrow prepared upon the string, and at last shot forth: and with a crown, denoting that royal state of kingly dignity and honour to which Christ, the Lamb that was slain, was now exalted; and thus he rode on conquering and to conquer, until he had consummated his victories, in a glorious triumph over his enemies, namely, in the conversion of some, and destruction of others; thus the opening of the first seal gave the church a very encouraging and comfortable prospect of the victories, successes and triumphs, of Christ, notwithstanding the rage, subtlety, and power, of all his enemies: Christ rode on with a bow in his hand, and with a crown on his head, conquering and to conquer, until his arrows were sharp in the hearts of his crucifiers; and will thus ride on till the people fall under him, and all his enemies become his footstool.

Matthew Poole:
2. Hence it followeth, that many of the things prophesied are fulfilled; ...

3. I take it for granted also, that things happened in the same order as is here described; so as the things under the second seal came not to pass till those prophesied of under the first seal were, in a great measure, accomplished, &c.

Some, by this white horse, understand the gospel; others, the Roman empire.

Justin Edwards Commentary: l. There are those who suppose that the seven seals and the seven trumpets run, either wholly or in part, parallel with each other in time, each carrying the history of the church and the world down to the era of millennial glory. Such of course apply the sixth seal to the mighty revolutions, commotions, and overturnings that immediately precede the millennial reign of Christ. But it seems impossible to reconcile this view with the plain words of the apostle in chap Revelation

Adam Clarke Commentary A white horse - Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

John Gill commentary
And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths, the peace it proclaims, the joy brings, and the triumph that attends it, on account of victories obtained by it,

and he that sat on him had a bow; with arrows; the bow is the word of the Gospel, and the arrows the doctrines of it;

and he went forth, conquering and to conquer; in the ministration of the Gospel which went forth, as did all the first ministers of it, from Jerusalem, to the several parts of the world; from the east, on which side of the throne was the first living creature, who called upon John to come and see this sight, as the standard of the tribe of Judah, which had a lion upon it, was on the east side of the camp of Israel; and out of Zion went forth the word of the Lord, which was very victorious, both among Jews and Gentiles, to the conversion of thousands of them, and to the planting of a multitude of churches among them, and to the setting up and advancing the kingdom of Christ; but inasmuch as yet all things are not made subject to him, he is represented as going forth in the Gospel, still conquering, and to conquer, what remain to be conquered:

had a bow] The doctrine of the gospel, whereby the people fall under him, Psalms 45:4.

As you can see, I am FAR from the only one that sees the first seal as the gospel going forth.

Perhaps you should spend some time reading the commentaries..
( I had to remove almost all of your post and 8 commentaries due to server rules.)