50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

So you don't think the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken immediately after the great tribulation, just before the day of the Lord/Christ and Gods wrath? 6th seal?

Then you haven't dug very deep into eschatology, yet you want to discuss it with great passion. You can't have this conversation if you aren't even willing to absorb the scriptures, study them, cross reference them, and meditate on them.

So you don't think the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light Let's look and see when...

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
WHEN? WHEN does the moon appear blood red - and how would one KNOW unless they SEE IT? This speaks of a total eclipse of the moon and a SEEN (visible) moon.
WHEN does the sun appear black? Again during a total eclipse of the sun. How would one know the sun appears black? They would have to SEE IT. AGain this is a visible sign.

Joel 2: "Darkness" - ḥōšeḵ "darkness (70x), dark (7x), obscurity (2x), night (1x). "

In Joel, it is chapter 2.
In Revelation it is chapter 6.

Joel 3: 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
WHEN? When is both the sun and moon dark so they are invisible? When God turns out the lights! Neither the sun or moon are visible here. This darkness started here:

Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Joel 3: Darkened: qāḏar mourn (6x), black (4x), dark (4x), blackish (1x), darkened (1x), heavily (1x).
Matthew 24: the sun be darkened: skotizō: darken (8x).

1. to cover with darkness, to darken
2. to be covered with darkness, be darkened
A. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

If the sun and moon are deprived of light, then God turned off the lights. Neither the sun or the moon will be visible.

The sign in Joel is before the tribulation of those days.
The sign is Matthew is after the tribulation of those days.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->-->--> the tribulation of those days (7 years) -->-->--> Matthew 24 sign-->|

The sign at the 6th seal is the sign of the Day of the Lord...so let's redo this chart.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->-->--> the DOTL & tribulation of those days (7 years) -->-->--> Matthew 24 sign-->|

The sign after the trib of those days is the sign of His coming, so let's redo again.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->--> the tribulation of those days (7 years) -->--> Matthew 24 sign--> HIS COMING! -->|

I think the sign for the Day of the Lord will be total eclipses in the sun and moon; then the Day will begin.
Then the 70th week and Day of the Lord are running - both at the same time - to the end: 7 years.
Then another and different sign in the son and moon: TOTAL DARKNESS - not even a star seen.

I form doctrine from scriptures as they are presented.
It seems you have formed a doctrine and they are forced to rearrange Rev. to fit.

 

[lamad]

"The Day of the Lord" STARTS at the BEGINNING of the "7-yr Trib" not at its END.


"The Day of the Lord" INCLUDES:

--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... per 1Th5:2-3;

--the "LAMPS LIT" (for the "NIGHT WATCHES");

--the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" (earthly-located) TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth (PRIOR to Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19)

--"the man of sin" IN HIS TIME

Also includes every trumpet judgment and every bowl judgment.

 

[lamad]

...

Then you haven't dug very deep into eschatology, yet you want to discuss it with great passion. You can't have this conversation if you aren't even willing to absorb the scriptures, study them, cross reference them, and meditate on them.

You are too funny! That should be said of ANYONE that must rearrange Revelation to fit their theory!

 

[lamad]

I was found to be speeding and got a ticket.

No search involved.

Ah! The police had his radar up LOOKING for speeders! Good example.

 

[VCO]

Its all talk. The truth is, Jesus had to die. No amount of talk or planning could do what His death did. Sure it was planned from the foundation of the earth. But at some point in time it HAD to happen. The truth is, God could NEVER allow a sinful human spirit (as they ALL were) in heaven, or heaven would cease being heaven. So in spite of all your words, the OT saints had to wait For Christ's resurrection.

Good luck explaining your WRONG theory to GOD.

Don't you get it, HIS PLAN WILL HAPPEN, AS HE PLANNED IT.

It is still A LACK OF FAITH THAT GOD WILL DO WHAT SAYS.

Numbers 23:19-20 (ESV)
19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said,
and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
20 Behold, I received a command to bless: he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.

 

[VCO]

Ah! The police had his radar up LOOKING for speeders! Good example.

You are Sinning every time you go above the Posted Speed Limit.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Is not the POSTED SPEED LIMIT, and ordinance of MAN ? ? ?

God gave me the tool to not go over the speed limit. Mine is Called CRUISE CONTROL.

 

[VCO]

So you don't think the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light Let's look and see when...

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
WHEN? WHEN does the moon appear blood red - and how would one KNOW unless they SEE IT? This speaks of a total eclipse of the moon and a SEEN (visible) moon.
WHEN does the sun appear black? Again during a total eclipse of the sun. How would one know the sun appears black? They would have to SEE IT. AGain this is a visible sign.

Joel 2: "Darkness" - ḥōšeḵ "darkness (70x), dark (7x), obscurity (2x), night (1x). "

In Joel, it is chapter 2.
In Revelation it is chapter 6.

Joel 3: 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
WHEN? When is both the sun and moon dark so they are invisible? When God turns out the lights! Neither the sun or moon are visible here. This darkness started here:

Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Joel 3: Darkened: qāḏar mourn (6x), black (4x), dark (4x), blackish (1x), darkened (1x), heavily (1x).
Matthew 24: the sun be darkened: skotizō: darken (8x).

1. to cover with darkness, to darken
2. to be covered with darkness, be darkened
A. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

If the sun and moon are deprived of light, then God turned off the lights. Neither the sun or the moon will be visible.

The sign in Joel is before the tribulation of those days.
The sign is Matthew is after the tribulation of those days.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->-->--> the tribulation of those days (7 years) -->-->--> Matthew 24 sign-->|

The sign at the 6th seal is the sign of the Day of the Lord...so let's redo this chart.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->-->--> the DOTL & tribulation of those days (7 years) -->-->--> Matthew 24 sign-->|

The sign after the trib of those days is the sign of His coming, so let's redo again.

|----Joel 2 & 6th seal sign-->--> the tribulation of those days (7 years) -->--> Matthew 24 sign--> HIS COMING! -->|

I think the sign for the Day of the Lord will be total eclipses in the sun and moon; then the Day will begin.
Then the 70th week and Day of the Lord are running - both at the same time - to the end: 7 years.
Then another and different sign in the son and moon: TOTAL DARKNESS - not even a star seen.

I form doctrine from scriptures as they are presented.
It seems you have formed a doctrine and they are forced to rearrange Rev. to fit.

And that is a SURE THING, just like SALVATION guarantees your Human Spirit goes to HEAVEN, the moment you die, THERFORE even the O.T. Assembly has the SAME GUARANTEE.

 

[VCO]

Also includes every trumpet judgment and every bowl judgment.

That one, you got 100% CORRECT.

 

[VCO]

Here is a commentary that I can agree with:

QUOTE:
The phrase “day of the Lord” usually identifies events that take place at the end of history (Isaiah 7:18-25) and is often closely associated with the phrase “that day.” One key to understanding these phrases is to note that they always identify a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect of His plan.
. . .
The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used often in the Old Testament (e.g. Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).
. . .
The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.
. . .
https://www.gotquestions.org/day-of-the-Lord.html
:END QUOTE.

 

[Glitter]

Here is a commentary that I can agree with:

QUOTE:
The phrase “day of the Lord” usually identifies events that take place at the end of history (Isaiah 7:18-25) and is often closely associated with the phrase “that day.” One key to understanding these phrases is to note that they always identify a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect of His plan.
. . .
The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used often in the Old Testament (e.g. Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5) and several times in the New Testament (e.g. Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).
. . .
The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to a still future fulfillment when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1) and on the unbelieving world (Ezekiel 38–39; Zechariah 14). The Scriptures indicate that “the day of the Lord” will come quickly, like a thief in the night (Zephaniah 1:14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:2), and therefore Christians must be watchful and ready for the coming of Christ at any moment.
. . .
https://www.gotquestions.org/day-of-the-Lord.html
:END QUOTE.

Amen 🙏

 

[Evmur]

Since it is so plain to you, please explain how the man of sin is revealed in 3b? What got "taken out of the way" so that could happen?

That day [the rapture] shall not come unless the rebellion comes FIRST and the man of rebellion is revealed ... so Antichrist will be revealed by heading up the world - wide rebellion against God.

who opposes everything god so called and is worshipped as God. He will seek to stamp out all religion ... that spells tribulation for YOU, great tribulation. It is the world - wide persecution Jesus warns about when we will be hated by all men for His name's sake. It is the great test which is coming upon all who dwell upon the earth which we are warned to watch and pray that we may be found worthy to stand before the Lord when He appears.

But the church is not watching and praying or preparing itself, YOU have taught them that we will be taken out of it by the rapture. The church is looking for the rapture but not the awful holocaust which must precede it.

Of COURSE the devil is going to put up a fight.

You will say that what is taken out of the way is the church, I say it is St. Michael.

 

[lamad]

That day [the rapture] shall not come unless the rebellion comes FIRST and the man of rebellion is revealed ... so Antichrist will be revealed by heading up the world - wide rebellion against God.

who opposes everything god so called and is worshipped as God. He will seek to stamp out all religion ... that spells tribulation for YOU, great tribulation. It is the world - wide persecution Jesus warns about when we will be hated by all men for His name's sake. It is the great test which is coming upon all who dwell upon the earth which we are warned to watch and pray that we may be found worthy to stand before the Lord when He appears.

But the church is not watching and praying or preparing itself, YOU have taught them that we will be taken out of it by the rapture. The church is looking for the rapture but not the awful holocaust which must precede it.

Of COURSE the devil is going to put up a fight.

You will say that what is taken out of the way is the church, I say it is St. Michael.

I don't think you understood the question: what is "taken out of the way" must be found in verse 3a - because he is revealed in 3b.

Sorry, but St. Michael is not found in 3a.

 

[lamad]

And that is a SURE THING, just like SALVATION guarantees your Human Spirit goes to HEAVEN, the moment you die, THERFORE even the O.T. Assembly has the SAME GUARANTEE.

Find the verse. If it is true, there must be a verse. Paul gives us a NT verse for that: absent from the body = present with the Lord. Where is such a verse in the OT?

 

[Absolutely]

That day [the rapture] shall not come unless the rebellion comes FIRST and the man of rebellion is revealed ... so Antichrist will be revealed by heading up the world - wide rebellion against God.

who opposes everything god so called and is worshipped as God. He will seek to stamp out all religion ... that spells tribulation for YOU, great tribulation. It is the world - wide persecution Jesus warns about when we will be hated by all men for His name's sake. It is the great test which is coming upon all who dwell upon the earth which we are warned to watch and pray that we may be found worthy to stand before the Lord when He appears.

But the church is not watching and praying or preparing itself, YOU have taught them that we will be taken out of it by the rapture. The church is looking for the rapture but not the awful holocaust which must precede it.

Of COURSE the devil is going to put up a fight.

You will say that what is taken out of the way is the church, I say it is St. Michael.

Once i began to see end times through the entire spectrum it completely changed the prism i now look through

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The only other person in here looking at that dynamic is vco.

Nobody else brings it in.

The entire end times is framed in that dynamic.

That is the next apex.

After that apex is the second
Jacobs trouble.
That is the jewish harvest.

Then Davids throne re established.
And so on into the new jerusalem.

Most on here are tribulation and AC centered.

Those are INDIRECT components.

Think PURPOSE. ONCE PURPOSE IS ON THE TABLE, we can begin to know arrangement and emphasis.

Heaven emphasizes the groom/bride.
Man emphasizes earth and AC /tribulation.

What God is doing is found in the last supper dialogue.

Jesus is framing his elect in light of heaven. That relationship dynamic carries into end times perspective.

Tribulation is part of the walk. We are promised tribulation.
So it is also the children of this natural life. They go through pain and anguish as do the children of the righteous

The earthly family is used many times to illustrate the heavenly.

In your thinking you think the father is tribulation centered.

In reality the evil father is.
The good father is guidance , mercy, and redemption centered, with a sprinkling of " tribulation".

Tribulation and testing have a purpose. The 5 wise virgins saw no tribulation. The 5 foolish did.

Your prism being " tribulation" as the center is going to forever skew your view.
IOW you are centered in the indirect dynamic.

 

[lamad]

Good luck explaining your WRONG theory to GOD.

Don't you get it, HIS PLAN WILL HAPPEN, AS HE PLANNED IT.

It is still A LACK OF FAITH THAT GOD WILL DO WHAT SAYS.

Numbers 23:19-20 (ESV)
19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said,
and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
20 Behold, I received a command to bless: he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.

So according to your theory, all God had to do is plan to sacrifice His son, but then just never get around to it.

No, at some point in time His plan had to be carried out.

Paul made it clear that after Christ died and rose again, then when a human spirit is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord. If your theory is true, there should be such a verse in the OT.

 

[Absolutely]

Ah! The police had his radar up LOOKING for speeders! Good example.

ok
The angels went door to door like the policeman and both failed to find anything and John saw it all. No wonder he was so sad.

Go for it.

It will be an interesting and worthy cause to pursue it.

 

[lamad]

ok
The angels went door to door like the policeman and both failed to find anything and paul saw it all.

Go for it.

It will be an interesting and worthy cause to pursue it.

It was a very simple question: WHY did that first search end in failure?
The answer is just as simple: Jesus Christ had not finished His work to Redeem men from their sins. He was not hiding, and he was not in transit. Either He had not yet died, or more likely had not yet risen from the dead.

 

[Absolutely]

It was a very simple question: WHY did that first search end in failure?
The answer is just as simple: Jesus Christ had not finished His work to Redeem men from their sins. He was not hiding, and he was not in transit. Either He had not yet died, or more likely had not yet risen from the dead.

Please do describe the search that is PARKED in your mind.
What did that search look like?

 

[Absolutely]

Also show me the verses that have that search in them.

 

[Absolutely]

Point specifically to the search