50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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VCO

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Find the verse. If it is true, there must be a verse. Paul gives us a NT verse for that: absent from the body = present with the Lord. Where is such a verse in the OT?
THAT IS EASY!

First of all PAUL was INSPIRED by GOD HIMSELF, to right Absent from the Body, is Present with the LORD.


Malachi 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!


If Lazarus and Abraham went anyplace except HEAVEN, then GOD LIED, when HE made the above Statement.

BUT GOD IS NOT A LIAR!


1 Samuel 15:29 (NCV)
29 The LORD is the Eternal One of Israel. He does not lie or change his mind. He is not a human being, so he does not change his mind.


The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all alone. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The only other person in here looking at that dynamic is vco.

Nobody else brings it in.
Not true. [Hello! :p ]

I'm always talking (and have, throughout this thread, and the related thread) about it too...

("WITH - G4862 - UNIONed-with"; as opposed to "with - G3326 - accompanying," as said of the "5 virginS [plural]" that He is not coming to "MARRY" ;) )

It's just that *I* do not use the Matt25:1-13,10 passage [per context] to speak of it, as you do.
[where v.10 says, "...and they that were ready went in with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding/marriage FEAST"]




But I *am* always pointing out the 2Cor11:2 "...FOR I [Paul] have espoused/betrothed you [corporate 'you'] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may PRESENT you [understood (corporate) 'you'] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ." (As well as the distinction that Rev19:7 makes to that of Rev19:9, similarly.)
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Not true.

I'm always talking (and have, throughout this thread, and the related thread) about it too... ("WITH - G4862 - UNIONed-with"; as opposed to "with - G3326 - accompanying," as said of the "5 virginS [plural]" that He is not coming to "MARRY" ;) )

It's just that *I* do not use the Matt25:1-13,10 passage [per context] to speak of it, as you do.




But I *am* always pointing out the 2Cor11:2 "...FOR I [Paul] have espoused/betrothed you [corporate 'you'] to ONE HUSBAND, that I may PRESENT you [understood (corporate) 'you'] A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ." (As well as the distinction that Rev19:7 makes to that of Rev19:9, similarly.)
You are speaking Theoretically.

Where is the gathering
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"... and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONed-with] the Lord."

[ ^ speaking of "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")]
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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THAT IS EASY!

First of all PAUL was INSPIRED by GOD HIMSELF, to right Absent from the Body, is Present with the LORD.


Malachi 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!


If Lazarus and Abraham went anyplace except HEAVEN, then GOD LIED, when HE made the above Statement.

BUT GOD IS NOT A LIAR!


1 Samuel 15:29 (NCV)
29 The LORD is the Eternal One of Israel. He does not lie or change his mind. He is not a human being, so he does not change his mind.


The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all along. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.

There is a TYPO in the Last Sentence. I should BE:

The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all ALONG. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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"OUR epiSYNagoges UNTO HIM" (and context)




That is, "IN THE AIR"--"the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (our Rapture event)
And so how is the 10 virgin parable not the gathering of the bride?

It is unquestionably vivid....the rapture.
The groom Jesus.
Virgins..believers.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Please do describe the search that is PARKED in your mind.
What did that search look like?
Go and read it: the angel asked WHO IS WORTHY...apparently in heaven, on earth and under the earth. But no man was found worthy, It makes no difference if you choose not to call it a search. Jesus did and that is good enough for me. But what is more important than what we call it is the question Jesus asked: WHY was He not found then?
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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There is a TYPO in the Last Sentence. I should BE:

The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all ALONG. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.
It is a moot point: the place is empty now.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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There is a TYPO in the Last Sentence. I should BE:

The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all ALONG. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.
How do you explain then the change from second person of the trinity as a spirit being to having a human body? Is that not "change?"
 

lamad

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"... and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONed-with] the Lord."

[ ^ speaking of "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]")]
And "we should live together with him. "
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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THAT IS EASY!

First of all PAUL was INSPIRED by GOD HIMSELF, to right Absent from the Body, is Present with the LORD.


Malachi 3:6 (NJB)
6 ‘No; I, Yahweh, do not change;
and you have not ceased to be children of Jacob!


If Lazarus and Abraham went anyplace except HEAVEN, then GOD LIED, when HE made the above Statement.

BUT GOD IS NOT A LIAR!


1 Samuel 15:29 (NCV)
29 The LORD is the Eternal One of Israel. He does not lie or change his mind. He is not a human being, so he does not change his mind.


The human theory about a good side of HADES for those who were Saved in the O.T., was wrong all alone. AND YOU TRUST IT BLINDLY.
Paul's verse is straight forward and right to the point: when one is absent from their flesh body, their spirit is present with the Lord.

The fact that God never changes does not answer this question. We need to qualifiy that statement: He DID change when He took on flesh. You are trying to say Him never changes means the NT = the OT. Sorry, won't work. NO ONE could be born again until Jesus died and rose from the dead.
God never changes in principles
God never changes in Truth.
God never changes in His love for us.
But He DID change between the OT and the NT: He too on flesh and died.
 

lamad

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Point specifically to the search
“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Notice the bolded word "search."

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.



If Jesus called it a search - and He did - I will call it a search. What difference does it make what we CALL it? The question still stands: WHY was Jesus not found immediately? John wept, showing us that search ended in failure.
 

VCO

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How do you explain then the change from second person of the trinity as a spirit being to having a human body? Is that not "change?"

That is not a CHANGE,

The FATHER HE IS GOD.
The SON HE IS GOD.
The HOLY SPIRIT HE is GOD.

THE THREE THEY ARE ONE and only ONE GOD.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN YOUR DIVISIVE NATURE?

Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.

That is your FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING! After your Second Warning, on the THIRD DIVISIVE ATTITUTE, I will be forced to put you on my permanent IGNORE LIST.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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And "we should live together with him. "
Yes [addressed to/for/about "the Church which is His body" ^ ], saying,

1Th5 "10 ... that WHETHER we might WATCH [same word as in v.6!] *OR* WHETHER we might SLEEP [same word as in v.6! (NOT the same 'sleep' word as in chpt 4!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him."



Yes.

That's the verse I had put over in the related thread ("Less well known rapture verses..." thread).

Please let the readers consider carefully what I'd put in that post:


Post #1579 (pg 79, in mid-Feb) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4494665





[and two more posts on that, in mid-April, in THIS current thread...]

Post #300 (pg 15) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533006

Post #1043 (pg 53) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4538231



[as well as back in January, a very brief post on this, in yet another thread...]

Post #43 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...d-how-many-years-are-left.197122/post-4480365



(y)
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Yes [addressed to/for/about "the Church which is His body" ^ ], saying,

1Th5 "10 ... that WHETHER we might WATCH [same word as in v.6!] *OR* WHETHER we might SLEEP [same word as in v.6! (NOT the same 'sleep' word as in chpt 4!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him."



Yes.

That's the verse I had put over in the related thread ("Less well known rapture verses..." thread).

Please let the readers consider carefully what I'd put in that post:


Post #1579 (pg 79, in mid-Feb) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4494665





[and two more posts on that, in mid-April, in THIS current thread...]

Post #300 (pg 15) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4533006

Post #1043 (pg 53) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4538231

[as well as back in January, a very brief post on this, in yet another thread...]

Post #43 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...d-how-many-years-are-left.197122/post-4480365

(y)
As I read this text, Paul is making a paradigm, bringing up two different groups of people and showing us two very different outcomes at the same moment in time:
FIRST the dead in Christ arise (which event will cause a worldwide earthquake [Mat. 27] )
Next, the two groups:
1. Those alive and in Christ will get raptured ("salvation") and get to live together with Him.
2. Those alive and NOT in Christ will get sudden destruction (from the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.)

In other words, the rapture and the sudden destruction are simultaneous events.

This does NOT mean the whole world is destroyed. Yes, the mountains may well move out of their place. But all sinners are not destroyed: some may just get shaken up.

What will cause this worldwide earthquake? In my opinion it will be God bringing together the "dust" that once formed the bodies of the saints. For some, that "dust" may be scattered over acres or miles. This is not written, but when Jesus raised the elders when He was raised, there was an earthquake. When the two witnesses will be raised, John says there will be an earthquake.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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This is the Best Chart of the 70 Weeks of Daniel. YES, I added the colored part, to make the RAPTURE make sense to those who are unfamiliar with the term, as the down arrow only point to were the Rapture may occur. That is RIGHT ON where I believe it occurs.
Sorry, but I had to reduce the size of the chart to 800 X 500 pixels to make it fit. Use ZOOM to make small print readable.

1621011669020.png
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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This is the Best Chart of the 70 Weeks of Daniel. YES, I added the colored part, to make the RAPTURE make sense to those who are unfamiliar with the term, as the down arrow only point to were the Rapture may occur. That is RIGHT ON where I believe it occurs.
Sorry, but I had to reduce the size of the chart to 800 X 500 pixels to make it fit. Use ZOOM to make small print readable.

View attachment 227641


I guess it is now called MAGNIFIER, type that in the SEARCH FOR ANYTHING box on the lower left. Also, the best tool that I have found for resizing pictures, is: FASTSTONE IMAGE VIEWER 7.5.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
As I read this text, Paul is making a paradigm, bringing up two different groups of people and showing us two very different outcomes at the same moment in time:
FIRST the dead in Christ arise (which event will cause a worldwide earthquake [Mat. 27] )
Next, the two groups:
1. Those alive and in Christ will get raptured ("salvation") and get to live together with Him.
2. Those alive and NOT in Christ will get sudden destruction (from the earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.)
In other words, the rapture and the sudden destruction are simultaneous events.
I don't disagree that they are pretty much lock-step! Right!

But here's my thoughts (slightly differing with yours):

--the same word for "destruction [G3639]" is translated in 1Tim6:9 as "ruin" (...and the 'and they shall NOT escape' is contrasted with those also finding themselves in the trib yrs, who *will* heed His word [by contrast], by their [heeding the] 'watch, and pray always, that ye may have strength TO FLEE OUT OF [same Grk word] each and every thing coming [on the earth, during trib] and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man [His Second Coming TO THE EARTH designation]'--IOW, the "they shall NOT escape" is contrasted with Lk21:36 ppl ALSO *IN* the trib yrs);

--the thing that is contrasted here (in 1Th5) is "for God hath not appointed/destined US for/unto wrath..." (like in 1Th1:10 'the One delivering US out-from THE WRATH COMING')... meaning, those (the 'they' of this passage) who will be left on the earth when our Rapture occurs, this is not said of them ;

--the "suddenness" of said "destruction" seems to parallel the wording in both Lam2:3-4 (as I've pointed out is parallel language to that of 2Th2:7b-8a), as well as the language saying, "for the spoiler shall SUDDENLY COME UPON us" (not speaking of 'us / the Church which is His body,' mind you) in a chpt filled with wording such as "pain, as a woman IN TRAVAIL," and "they shall lay hold on BOW...; they are cruel and have no mercy... roareth like the sea... ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion" etc (again, similarly to what I've said also parallels Lam2:3-4's language, that being Hab1:6,12, "...O Lord, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] FOR/TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT; and O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] FOR CORRECTION.")

--just before this "sudden destruction" COMES UPON "them," our "SNATCH" takes place *FIRST* (as all of the related passages agree).

This does NOT mean the whole world is destroyed. Yes, the mountains may well move out of their place. But all sinners are not destroyed: some may just get shaken up.
What will cause this worldwide earthquake? In my opinion it will be God bringing together the "dust" that once formed the bodies of the saints. For some, that "dust" may be scattered over acres or miles. This is not written, but when Jesus raised the elders when He was raised, there was an earthquake. When the two witnesses will be raised, John says there will be an earthquake.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
This is the Best Chart of the 70 Weeks of Daniel. YES, I added the colored part, to make the RAPTURE make sense to those who are unfamiliar with the term, as the down arrow only point to were the Rapture may occur. That is RIGHT ON where I believe it occurs.
Sorry, but I had to reduce the size of the chart to 800 X 500 pixels to make it fit. Use ZOOM to make small print readable.

View attachment 227641
I like it!