50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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FreeGrace2

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Absolutely said:
Rev 14 is neither the rapture or the second coming.

But in the rapture of 1 Thes 4 and rev 14 jesus meets them in the atmosphere.

Most here miss the plan and purposes of end times

It is the gathering of the gentile bride and the wayward wife.
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Most of the Bride is already in heaven, given about 2,000 years of deaths. So they are already gathered. One would have to accept the ludicrous doctrine of soul sleep to believe that the gathering is about Bride and wife. lol
 
cv5

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Some of the post-tribbers seem to believe that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the same trumpet as 1st Thessalonians 4:16. This is certainly not the case. That seventh trumpet is a trumpet of WOE......per Rev 8:13.
 
VCO

VCO

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GaryA said:
My King James Bible says 'Yep!'.


Nope!


The default common-sense view and understanding is 'no gap'.

. . .
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You do know that KJV was only a Paraphrase of the 5 earlier English Bible translations, WITH KNOW ERRORS.

It was done to update English language and to correct the Known Errors. They did not go to the original language translations,
they relieved on paraphrasing the older English languages, and in problem verses referred the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Bible.

Here is the link to the ORIGINAL 1611 KJV PREFACE:

https://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm


Here is an excerpt:

The Translators To The Reader​

Zeale to promote the common good, whether it be by devising any thing our selves, or revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . .
. . .
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknowen tongue? . . . so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readinesse. . .
. . .
Yet it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to them, to take that which they found, (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather then by making a new, in that new world and greene age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations, as though they made a Translation to serve their owne turne, and therefore bearing witnesse to themselves, their witnesse not to be regarded. This may be supposed to bee some cause, why the Translation of the Seventie was allowed to passe for currant. . . . he holdeth the Authours thereof not onely for Interpreters, but also for Prophets in some respect: and Justinian the Emperour enjoyning the Jewes his subjects to use specially the Translation of the Seventie, rendreth this reason thereof, because they were as it were enlighted with propheticall grace. . . .
. . . This is the translation of the Seventy Interpreters, com- monly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gen- tiles by written ERRORS preaching . . . It is certain, that that Translation was not so sound and so perfect, but it needed in many places correc- tion; . . . {KNOWN in the Septuagint} . . . (and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sence thereof according to the trueth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greeke Translations of the old Testament. . . .
. . . But now the Latin Translations were too many to be all good, for they were infinite (Latini Interprets nullo modo numerari possunt, saith S. Augustine.) [S. Augustin. de doctr. Christ. lib 2 cap II]. Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy. . . .
There were also within a few hundreth yeeres after CHRIST, translations many into the Latine tongue: for this tongue also was very fit to convey the Law and the Gospel by, because in those times very many Countreys of the West, yea of the South, East and North, spake or understood Latine, being made Provinces to the Romanes. But now the Latine Translations were too many to be all good, . . . Now the Church of Rome . . . Yea, so unwilling they are to communicate the Scriptures to the peoples understanding in any sort, that they are not ashamed to confesse, that wee forced them to translate it into English against their wills. . . .
. . .
. . .
. . . the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place. {KNOWN ERRORS} . . .
Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .
. . .
to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this meanes it commeth to passe, that whatsoever is sound alreadie (and all is sound for substance, in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours farre better then their autentike vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . . .
. . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest {poorest} translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .
. . .
Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Translations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. { The very same thing you do to MODERN Translations. } For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .
. . .
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke, but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .

{That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages.}
​
 
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FreeGrace2

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cv5 said:
Some of the post-tribbers seem to believe that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the same trumpet as 1st Thessalonians 4:16. This is certainly not the case. That seventh trumpet is a trumpet of WOE......per Rev 8:13.
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As a post tribber, I don't believe the trumpet associated with Christ's Second Coming is the 7th trumpet of Revelation. That would place Christ back on earth somewhere in the middle of the trib, or earlier.

There can easily be the "7 trumpet judgments" and a final trumpet, announcing Christ's return, at the end of the trib.
 
OldSage

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FreeGrace2 said:
Getting a grip would be advised. And accepting correction, of course. :)
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The Forum is a great disappointment. Very few serious bible students, if any
I guess the serious students are quietly studying at home, or in a good church
 
cv5

cv5

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Another thing the post-tribbers don't recognize: The time of tribulation is the wrath of the LAMB.
This wrath is NOT appointed to the Church.

But wait there is more. By far the greatest numbers of Christians of those who are already deceased. And they will definitely not be going through the time of the wrath of the Lamb either.
 
cv5

cv5

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OldSage said:
The Forum is a great disappointment. Very few serious bible students, if any
I guess the serious students are quietly studying at home, or in a good church
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You can say that again. Especially lately.....now that TDW is gone, Athuwakee is not around, MattforJesus has yet to post and I am not posting much anymore.......:whistle:
 
VCO

VCO

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OldSage said:
The Forum is a great disappointment. Very few serious bible students, if any
I guess the serious students are quietly studying at home, or in a good church
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OR they have been TAUGHT like I WAS, if you want to Teach the less educated, remember one THING:

"KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!" An elderly Pastor pulled me into his OFFICE on Sunday Morning, after seeing me witnessing on this
very subject, a couple days before, downtown. Those were his exact words, and he added, "You were going CLEAN OVER HIS HEAD."
I have NEVER forgot that eye-opening LESSON.
 
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FreeGrace2

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cv5 said:
Another thing the post-tribbers don't recognize: The time of tribulation is the wrath of the LAMB.
This wrath is NOT appointed to the Church.
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Unless there is a clear verse that indicates resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven after the "gathering", your point doesn't prove a pretrib rapture. Only a verse that actually indicates believers being taken to heaven would prove it.

In fact, Scripture says the opposite. In both rapture (gathering) verses, the context is the Second Advent.
 
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Runningman

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FreeGrace2 said:
Unless there is a clear verse that indicates resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven after the "gathering", your point doesn't prove a pretrib rapture. Only a verse that actually indicates believers being taken to heaven would prove it.

In fact, Scripture says the opposite. In both rapture (gathering) verses, the context is the Second Advent.
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Exactly.

Jesus comes to punish those who have not obeyed the Gospel of Christ and to be glorified in His saints.

Let's pretend this occurs pre-trib then there wouldn't be a great tribulation period populated by unbelievers. When Jesus comes to be glorified in His saints and to punish the unbelievers with everlasting destruction that would eliminate all of the unbelievers of the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The only way these verses make any sense is they occur post-tribulation.
 
cv5

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Unless there is a clear verse that indicates resurrected and raptured believers being taken to heaven after the "gathering", your point doesn't prove a pretrib rapture. Only a verse that actually indicates believers being taken to heaven would prove it.

In fact, Scripture says the opposite. In both rapture (gathering) verses, the context is the Second Advent.
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Show us the clear indisputable verse that says that the Akedah of Genesis 22 is a type of God the Father and the sacrifice of His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Show us the indisputable verse says Joseph is a type of Christ. Show was the indisputable verse that tells us that the book of Joshua is a microcosm of Jesus' Coming to conquer the wicked planet in the 70th week tribulation.

The pre-tribbers have eyes to see with and ears to hear with......The rest not so much.
 
GaryA

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VCO said:
And that is the War will continue until the end, that Daniel mention Dan. 9:26, and on top of it all,
and desolations have been decreed, committing horrible SINS in Jerusalem:
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circa 70 A.D.

The word 'end' is not referring to "the end of time"...

VCO said:
Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
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Armageddon

VCO said:
The Nations gather to make war against Israel, in the Valley of Megiddo, then go on to ISRAEL to make WAR against the KING of kings.
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Armageddon
 
GaryA

GaryA

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lamad said:
Your second coming scriptures leave out His THIRD (3rd) coming.

He is coming the next time (2nd coming) FOR His church, but only to the air, as shown in 1 Thes. 4 - a coming scripture you failed to list.
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Oh wow - I can't believe it! A pre-tribber who is bold enough to call their belief of a pre-trib rapture event exactly what it is - a 'coming' of Christ.

I have never in my life seen this before - somebody write it on the calendar.

"I applaud you, sir!"

:cool: (y)
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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GaryA said:
circa 70 A.D.

The word 'end' is not referring to "the end of time"...
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Of course it's not referring to "the end of TIME" but of the "end" of what that context is speaking of.



And that cannot be in the "70ad events" because the events surrounding "70ad" brought about this (per Lk21:23,20,24):

--(a) "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"; and...

--(b) "and Jerusalem [the city that the Dan9:24-27 prophecy is concerning] shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..."


...and those parts (in the "70ad" section, in Lk21:12-24a) are SEQUENTIALLY PRIOR to what Dan9:27a/b/c goes ON to speak about... which verse (v.27) also speaks of "determined" issues (v.26)... Hope that makes sense. = )
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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GaryA said:
Oh wow - I can't believe it! A pre-tribber who is bold enough to call their belief of a pre-trib rapture event exactly what it is - a 'coming' of Christ.
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I have never in my life seen this before - somebody write it on the calendar.

"I applaud you, sir!"

:cool: (y)
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Ah... apparently you missed where I said that in 2Th2:1 when WE (ALONE) are who will be IN HIS PRESENCE [/parousia - the "coming" word in v.1) not being the SAME TIME-SLOT as His v.8b "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia - "coming" in that verse 8b]"

--not everyone in the world will experience the VERSE 1 thing, see... ONLY *US* ("IN THE AIR");

--v.8b involves "EVERY EYE" shall see Him (i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth POINT IN TIME Rev19)



IOW, a "coming" to the MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR (involving ONLY "US"), is not identical to a "coming" to the earth Rev19 (same way His "come" at Bethlehem to be BORN was not identical to His "come" to Jerusalem as Zech9:9 spoke of... tho BOTH were a part of His "FIRST ADVENT" things ;) )




[what *I* usually point out though, is that ONLY ONE of these (at top) ^ is what His "RETURN" speaks of--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom)... THEN the meal (G347); and Lk19:12,15,17.19 "RETURN"]
 
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ewq1938

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OldSage said:
Ah the old 'let's start a silly heated debate' routine because I don't actually have a clue what I am talking about
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This reply is more like, "Ah the old 'let's avoid addressing the content of the post' routine because I don't actually have a clue what I am talking about and cannot disprove what ewq1938 posted."
 
GaryA

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VCO said:
I forgot to mention , that WAR could be World War III, a fuel scale Nuclear War. The city of Jerusalem half them population goes into voluntary Exile. Most are killed, EXCEPT for the 144,000 sealed by the Holy Spirit, flews the to the East into Jordan after HIS feet touch down on the Mt. of Olives. He sends them out, through that Valley after the mountain splits to a place of safety. AND TURNS to the Valley of Megiddo to end ALL WHO ARE TRYING TO STOP HIS RETURN.

Rev. 14:20 – Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses’ bridles for about 180 miles. (HCSB)

That is How many combatants on in that VALLEY that are killed instantly.

Zechariah 14:12 (HCSB)
12 This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.


YES, I believe that all is to be interpreted LITERALLY.
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Armageddon and the Wrath of God - with a little 70 A.D. mixed in...

I agree with a literal interpretation; however, the horses bridles illustration may be just that. But, what it is illustrating - the amount of blood - is very highly likely to be literal.
 
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