50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[lamad]

This what do you think of this verse? You quoted it but left no explanation. 1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse. That's what I thought for many years, too.


I believe all of it, of course. It is written, remember?


1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on?

Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event, or that there are several different events that eventually include all who belong to Him.

btw, 1 Cor 15:23 shows 2 groups in the resurrection. The first one is, of course, the "first fruits", Jesus Christ, who was the FIRST person to receive a resurrection body. The second group is "those who belong to Him".

Can you defend that "those who belong to Him" cannot be every believer from Adam on?


Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"?


I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU


Of course Jesus raised the ELDERS as we see in Matthew 27.

Sorry, only those "IN CHRIST" will rise at Jesus coming to the clouds as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I must disagree with you here.

Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", Again we can agree! Hallelujah!

every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent. No. You are trying to lump many verses together as if one event. That is error. God back and read Paul. AT Paul's gathering, it is ONLY those in Christ. And this makes perfect sense. After Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. It was like a big ( church age ) It would look like this "Jewish age after Messiah........( church age )....Jewish age continues with 70th week.

So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST. None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.

It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church. What are you going to do with John 14? People have BEEN to heaven and came back. They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.

Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?

But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.

So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

This is really showing us that in his narrative, the marriage ceremony over and now it is time for the supper. The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.

Please pay attention. Yes, please do! But I suspect we read these verses differently and will disagree.

The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof. Proof that the scene is in heaven. That is where the throne is.

[/QUOTE]

You quoted it but left no explanation. In context I was talking about your statement of the dead in Christ being a much larger group and your statement that they were in heaven. Yes, certainly in heaven - UNTIL Jesus brings them WITH HIM to the rapture event. That was my point: they come WITH Him to join with their bodies.

1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse By itself is is only a rapture verse, because no timing comes with it. We have to read into chapter 5 to find timing information.

1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on? First, I think all commentaries and most believers say 1 Cor. 15 is speaking of the same event as 1 thes. 4. I believe them. I think they are sister passages speaking of His coming (for His saints) and the resurrection and catching up. Since there is no timing information given in 1 Cor, and there IS timing information given in 1 Thes 5, we must go with the 1 Thes. passage for timing. Since the 1 Thes 4 LIMITS THOSE CAUGHT UP to only those "in Christ" then it must be true for the 1 Cor. 15 passage. It is back to trying to form doctrine from an isolated verse rather than finding ALL verses on a subject. Question: do you believe 1 Cor, 15 is speaking of something DIFFERENT than 1 Thes 4?

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This does not disagree with Paul speaking of those "in Christ." If people are "in Christ," then they are HIS.

Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event Paul is very clear: only those "IN CHRIST" meaning having been born again.

Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"? It was impossible: Christ had not come before the OT saints died. How could someone in Moses time be "in Christ" when to be "in Christ" they must be born again, and to get born again they must BELIEVE in Christ and believe God raised Him from the dead. All that was impossible until Christ actually came, died, and rose.

 

[lamad]

This is a continuation from post 1050. For some reason my computer locked up and I couldn't type. So I refreshed, and continued answering the post, but the website thought I was editing, and it timed me out.

So, here's the rest of my response to lamad:



I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU assume to create an earthquake and then pin that on one of the wraths of God.


It would be nice to include the exact verse you are thinking of.


No problem. The problem is that you now have to prove from Scripture that no OT believer is "in Christ".

And you also have the problem explaining that "those who belong to Him" cannot include both OT and NT believers.


Actually, it's the way to study Scripture. When different passages describe events that share mostly common characteristics, it's a no-brainer.


So you think that 1 Cor 15:23 means only NT believers? But the verse doesn't say that. It says, "those who belong to Him". Can you show me from Scripture that OT believers cannot be said to "belong to Him".

Consider this verse from Paul:

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Do you see anything here that would separate OT from NT believers? I don't.


I can't wait for your explanation of how no OT believer is "in Christ". And don't forget to address 1 Tim 4:10.


Explain what Paul meant in 1 Tim 4:10. It's clear enough to me.


It's a description of the Second Coming, which includes a gathering.

btw, Paul noted the same thing in 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,


What would you like me to do with it? I'd be happy to explain any verse you are curious about. Let me know.


Prove it.


Again, prove it. I am NOT aware of any verse or passage that supports any of this.


Are you now back in Rev 19, or are you still in Matt 24?


This info supports my view, not yours. If the wedding happened 7 years before Christ gathers His army to leave heaven and return to earth, the wording would have been different. But it is wording as "about to happen".


The "timing" in Revelation is admittedly difficult to figure out. I look at events that resemble other events in previous epistles.


OK, I'll agree. And the very next event is Jesus leaving heaven with His army, headed to earth to end Armageddon.


That isn't at all clear in the text. But nice try. The next verse is, as you say, another subject. Which happens right away.


Of course all of these are in heaven. What's your point about that? All of them are seen in Rev 4. What's the point?

Neither you nor anyone can make "is come" into "about to happen." You are putting TIMING information into a Greek Aorist verb which has no timing. I could say "just happened" and be just as wrong. All we can know from this Greek word is, "marriage." We have to decide WHEN from the context. It is a FACT that John mentioned the marriage before he mentioned the Descent to earth. No posttriber can change that fact.

My point is, this HUGE bunch of people are IN HEAVEN with John when marriage is mentioned. John could have mentioned marriage AFTER Jesus descent - but He did not.

You can ignore believer's personal testimonies if you wish. But if they agree with the written word, WHY? Paul USED His person testimony all through Acts.

The "timing" in Revelation is admittedly difficult to figure out. I look at events that resemble other events in previous epistles. I disagree in general. The "timing" is when John mentions it. But occasionally there is a prophecy of future events that may LOOK like it happens where written. Example: 11:16-19 Then there are parenthesis. For example: it first appears that the Two Witnesses die in the timing of the 11th chapter, around the midpoint of the week. But 11:4 through 11:13 is without a doubt written as a parenthesis. The truth is, they show up and begin their 1260 days just a few days before the midpoint of the week.

we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. OF COURSE Jesus is the only doorway into heaven for both the OT and NT believers. But the OT saints had to wait out the time in Abraham's bosom until Jesus rose from the dead. The truth is, if OT believers could have made it to heaven under the Law, Jesus would not have had to come. But that was IMPOSSIBLE. No sin could be totally remitted and the guilt thereof taken away until JESUS BLOOD was shed. The blood of bulls and goats could NEVER remove sin - only cover it.

Jesus is the doorway into heaven for the OT saints as well as for the NT, but it was done differently for each group. THEY believed a Messiah was coming, WE know He came and we put our faith in His death and resurrection.

John 14, WHEN will Jesus take us to those homes He has prepared? I would guess you will say when the New Jerusalem comes down. Pretribbers think LONG before that. The truth is, we have to go SOMEWHERE after we are caught up just before wrath.

The next verse is, as you say, another subject. Which happens right away. How can you say that? If the marriage does not happen when John mentions it, then anyone is free to move anything in Revelation to a place they feel it fits better. Maybe HIs descend DOESN'T happen right away. That is why I have an axiom on Revelation:

"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong."

I have actually had people say silly things like "the 7th seal really happens before the 6th. Then other say things just as silly: the 6th seal is opened at the 7th trumpet, or vice vesa: the 7th trumpet sounds at the 6th seal. Well, maybe the Holy City comes down before the Great White Throne judgment - according to someone's whim. When someone tries to move something, rearranging John's great book, they are opening up the proverbial can of worms. Anyone can move any event anywhere. Of course they will be wrong, but they just don't know it.

 

[VCO]

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

 

[Evmur]

Strange: John shows us the Day of His Wrath (6th seal) starts before the 70th week begins (7th seal). That makes the entire 70th week or as people say, "the tribulation" all the wrath of God.

When we discover the Old Testament plan for the Day as is written that God's plan is to destroy the world and the sinners in in the world, we see that the trumpet judgments certainly fit God beginning to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. There can therefore be no doubt that the trumpets are then inside the Day of the Lord, in the same order John wrote it.

According to your own statement, we are saved from His wrath - so the rapture is just as Paul and John show it: just before wrath or just before the 6th seal start of wrath. It is no mistake then that John SAW the just raptured church in heaven as that great crowd too large to number. Take note, that was written by John in chapter 7, before the 70th week begins. This is one reason I am pretrib: I SEE pretrib in scriptures.

all that depends upon the hope that you understand Revelations and David correctly. I don't think you do.

Paul clearly teaches that before the comes to collect His saints
Antichrist will be revealed
he will oppose all that is called god or worshipped as god [that is the great persecution or tribulation]
he will sit in the temple claiming that he is God
he will be destroyed by the coming of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is a 1, 000 years

 

[lamad]

all that depends upon the hope that you understand Revelations and David correctly. I don't think you do.

Paul clearly teaches that before the comes to collect His saints
Antichrist will be revealed
he will oppose all that is called god or worshipped as god [that is the great persecution or tribulation]
he will sit in the temple claiming that he is God
he will be destroyed by the coming of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is a 1, 000 years

Please, allow me to lay it out.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This is one of God's descriptions of the Day of the Lord. John shows it starting at the 6th seal.

2nd Trumpet: 1/3 of sea becomes blood.
3rd Trumpet: 1/3 of fresh water becomes "wormwood."
6th trumpet 1/3 of earth's population killed

Question: does this fit Isa 13:9 above: God making the land desolate and destroying sinners out of it? You know it does. So what is this showing us? It shows us very clearly that the Day of the Lord starts right where John mentions it: the 6th seal. (Others say the 7th seal - small difference)

Question 2: did I understand that correctly? I think these scriptures cannot be seen any other way.

2 thes 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Please answer this question: in verse 3b bolded, is the man of sin revealed in Paul's argument or is he not?

 

[lamad]

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

He may well come before some on this forum imagine. He could come TONIGHT.

 

[Absolutely]

It is quite simple We are saved from the wrath of God
we are not save from tribulation we are saved with and through tribulation

Tribulation comes from the world and is persecution. The great tribulation is the great end times persecution

Mat 24 shifts to "before the flood"

THEN ( timetable) Jesus brings in noah, and the "one taken/ left"and " watching and waiting/ being ready"

Jesus THEN goes straight into the 10 virgins and ...you guessed it..." Watching and waiting/being ready.

No rapture dynamic ANYWHERE Is postrib.

No possibility of a postrib rapture alongside 1 thes 4 and rev 14.

You can not have the living of rev 14 PRECEDE The dead in christ of the rapture

Unless you are one of the " trib is any trib and wrath is ONLY last half of the gt." Adherents.

Too tedious.

The entire 7 years is trib/ wrath mixture.

Take a real close look at the 4 horsemen
They are beyond "trouble" ,or "tribulation"

 

[Absolutely]

What I said:
"""What I would like to see is any verse that clearly indicates that Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere, with all the dead saints from heaven, and gathers up (raptures) all the living believers on earth, resurrects the dead, and changes the living, and then TAKES THEM ALL BACK TO HEAVEN."""

Typical copout technique. You know very well you don't have any U-turn verses, so you hide behind the lousy excuse that I will ignore them.

Since I have been begging your pretribbers to provide any such verses, why would I ignore what I'm asking for? You don't make sense.


Yeah, you're one to talk about "methods". See above.


Actually, NO parable is "clear as a bell". Apparently you have no idea why Jesus used parables, huh.

Mark 4:9-13
Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”
Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

The bold words describe you.

You did not address any point specifically. You just threw your postrib workbook at it.

Then went on to show how you supposedly , in abstract generalities , in your mind, think you made some point.

My challenge remains.
Post for us a postrib rapture verse.
I will wait.

Just bible

No postrib sideshow.

 

[Absolutely]

There is no Scripture to suggest that the "church age" ends before the Trib. That's just another "construct" required to hold on to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Kinda like your 3 advents idea.

Do you think that God expects His people (believers in Messiah/Jesus) to return to the Law and sacrifices? Most scholars say the GT will have the most intense period of evangelization ever. And obviously there will be a number saved.

You think they will be under the Law and sacrifice????


"""I count on what the Bible says plainly. You have no evidence for your views.

I count on what the Bible says plainly. You have no evidence for your views"""

0k show us IN THE BIBLE , that you claim to know, a verse supporting your postrib rapture postion.

 

[lamad]

Mat 24 shifts to "before the flood"

THEN ( timetable) Jesus brings in noah, and the "one taken/ left"and " watching and waiting/ being ready"

Jesus THEN goes straight into the 10 virgins and ...you guessed it..." Watching and waiting/being ready.

No rapture dynamic ANYWHERE Is postrib.

No possibility of a postrib rapture alongside 1 thes 4 and rev 14.

You can not have the living of rev 14 PRECEDE The dead in christ of the rapture

Unless you are one of the " trib is any trib and wrath is ONLY last half of the gt." Adherents.

Too tedious.

The entire 7 years is trib/ wrath mixture.

Take a real close look at the 4 horsemen
They are beyond "trouble" ,or "tribulation"

Very good except the last two sentences.
The first five seals are church age. Wrath starts at the 6th seal and the 70th week starts at the 7th seal.
ALL of the week is wrath, just as you said, because the DAY of wrath starts first, then the week.

By the way, Jesus ONLY point in referring to Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction. Notice the preposition "for." It gives away Jesus reason for bringing up Noah. It will be the same with His coming to Armageddon: untold millions will die that day. They will get up that morning thinking it will be a day just like yesterday.....WRONG! Those in Noah's day were wrong. Those in Lot's day were wrong. And much of the world will be wrong on the Day Jesus returns on the white horse.

 

[Absolutely]

If there is such a thing as a pretrib rapture, how in the world could I "ignore" it?? And my smile will be AT LEAST as wide as yours.

However, if you have miscalculated, how will you take the fact that you have sorely misunderstood Scripture?


You are counting things that simply aren't there.

There are 2 advents. Who in this world has ever taught that there are "3 advents of Christ"? Please name any scholar or famous Bible teacher who has.

If the Bible clearly taught that Jesus makes a huge U-turn before the Trib and brings all believers up to heaven, it would be common knowledge that there are "3 advents".

But, since such an idea is hardly common knowledge, and you have no evidence for it, why should anyone believe it?

Lol....rev 14 is what?
The coming in horses?

That is comical.

You have no case or verses.

All your posts are generalities.

No specific verses in you argument.

 

[FreeGrace2]

A coincidence? I think not. When God resurrects those long dead, He must first reform the body that died. I am convinced, from string theory that at some level, the "dust" will have an identity of that dead body. God won't just use any dust: it will be THE dust from the body that turned to dust. Now imagine those who died before the flood. The dust that once formed their bodies could be separated, particle from particle, for thousands of miles. Yet in a split second, the Holy Spirit will gather the "dust" that once made up those bodies and reform it back to the same body that died. All I am saying is, it makes good sense that such a resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake.

String theory or not, of course God is fully able to take the exact molecules from the physical body, where ever they may be, and put them back together into a NEW resurrection body, without the sin nature's effects, of course.

When I think of those from before the flood, I am convinced that it will cause the world's worst earthquake. Where do we find the world's worst ever earthquake? It is at the 7th vial on the "last day" of the Jewish age - the very day that Jesus said He would raise the dead. Therefore I suspect the OT saints will be raised at the 7th vial. It is only a guess. I cannot prove it with scripture - but then, no one can prove otherwise.

Lots of things we can't prove.

Next, were the OT saints "in Christ?" No, that would be impossible because they lived BEFORE Christ.

With God, NOTHING is impossible. That's Scripture. Jesus said so.

Again, you seem to be ignoring 1 Cor 15:23 and the phrase "then those who belong to Christ".

Do you believe that OT saints either DON'T belong to Christ, or that not everyone who belongs to Christ is "in Christ".

Christ died for everyone, and those who believe in Him are given eternal life. They are SAVED because of Him. How can they NOT be "in Christ". They are surely in Christ's total care and safety.

Only two people (exceptions to the rule) made it to heaven before Christ came: Enoch and Elijah - the very two that I suspect will be the Two Witnesses.

Absolutely agreed! In fact, Heb 9:27 says men are destined to die once. They haven't died yet, but will during the Tribulation.

How God did it is His business. But until Christ died and rose again, all the righteous dead had to go to paradise in hades - the place of departed spirits.

Correct, and Jesus took them all to heaven when He went to Hades, to preach to the spirits.

Therefore the OT saints are a different group from the NT saints.

But they have been in heaven SINCE Jesus' resurrection, and where ALL NT saints go at death. I see no difference.

Yes, it says "those who belong to him. But 1 Thes 4, speaking of the same event, says only those IN CHRIST.

I do the math and realize that those who belong to him ARE all saints. Not just a separate group of saints.

 

[Absolutely]

Very good except the last two sentences.
The first five seals are church age. Wrath starts at the 6th seal and the 70th week starts at the 7th seal.
ALL of the week is wrath, just as you said, because the DAY of wrath starts first, then the week.

By the way, Jesus ONLY point in referring to Noah and Lot was the suddenness of their destruction. Notice the preposition "for." It gives away Jesus reason for bringing up Noah. It will be the same with His coming to Armageddon: untold millions will die that day. They will get up that morning thinking it will be a day just like yesterday.....WRONG! Those in Noah's day were wrong. Those in Lot's day were wrong. And much of the world will be wrong on the Day Jesus returns on the white horse.

Nope.... Jesus made sure he framed Noah " before the flood".

Jesus also invokes lot ( try and disprove the pre judgement dynamic of lot)

You are reaching

After Jesus said " before the food" he invokes Noah, the one taken/ left", and then, in the same breath " watching, waiting, being ready"

Not convinced?

Then IN THE SAME BREATH Jesus tells of the rapture in the 10 virgins

(Being ready)...and 50% left behind.

But noah was removed into the ark FIRST along with the animals.

The ark is a type of heaven.
( Gods dwelling place)

Solid bible.
50 % LEFT BEHIND

 

[FreeGrace2]

My comments were in blue.
You quoted it but left no explanation. In context I was talking about your statement of the dead in Christ being a much larger group and your statement that they were in heaven. Yes, certainly in heaven - UNTIL Jesus brings them WITH HIM to the rapture event. That was my point: they come WITH Him to join with their bodies.[/QUOTE]
OK, we are in agreement here.

1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse By itself is is only a rapture verse, because no timing comes with it. We have to read into chapter 5 to find timing information.

Could you please cite or quote the verse you have in mind. This kind of response leave one hanging. I have no idea what verse you are thinking of.

1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on? First, I think all commentaries and most believers say 1 Cor. 15 is speaking of the same event as 1 thes. 4. I believe them. I think they are sister passages speaking of His coming (for His saints) and the resurrection and catching up. Since there is no timing information given in 1 Cor, and there IS timing information given in 1 Thes 5, we must go with the 1 Thes. passage for timing. Since the 1 Thes 4 LIMITS THOSE CAUGHT UP to only those "in Christ" then it must be true for the 1 Cor. 15 passage. It is back to trying to form doctrine from an isolated verse rather than finding ALL verses on a subject. Question: do you believe 1 Cor, 15 is speaking of something DIFFERENT than 1 Thes 4?

Until I have the 1 Thess 5 verse that you only refer to, I cannot make further comment. I do agree, however, that 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:17 refer to the same event. Obviously.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This does not disagree with Paul speaking of those "in Christ." If people are "in Christ," then they are HIS.

Exactly. And all believers since Adam are also His. Can't argue otherwise.

Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event Paul is very clear: only those "IN CHRIST" meaning having been born again.

Well, I think your view of "in Christ" limits the scope. Everyone who ever believed is IN CHRIST'S care and salvation. That should be obvious.

btw, if you make this artificial distinction, when are the OT saints resurrected? Or ever?

Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"? It was impossible: Christ had not come before the OT saints died.

I don't see how this makes any difference? Just WHO did the OT believers believe IN? Christ Himself. You are making a distinction without a difference. Everyone who has believed IN CHRIST is "in Christ". It cannot be otherwise. That makes no sense.

How could someone in Moses time be "in Christ" when to be "in Christ" they must be born again, and to get born again they must BELIEVE in Christ and believe God raised Him from the dead. All that was impossible until Christ actually came, died, and rose.

Glad that you bring up Moses. Let's see what the Bible says about your "distinction without a difference" idea.

Heb 11:26 - He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

So please don't tell me that Moses is not "in Christ". He believed in Him.

btw, who was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration?

 

[lamad]

String theory or not, of course God is fully able to take the exact molecules from the physical body, where ever they may be, and put them back together into a NEW resurrection body, without the sin nature's effects, of course.


Lots of things we can't prove.


With God, NOTHING is impossible. That's Scripture. Jesus said so.

Again, you seem to be ignoring 1 Cor 15:23 and the phrase "then those who belong to Christ".

Do you believe that OT saints either DON'T belong to Christ, or that not everyone who belongs to Christ is "in Christ".

Christ died for everyone, and those who believe in Him are given eternal life. They are SAVED because of Him. How can they NOT be "in Christ". They are surely in Christ's total care and safety.


Absolutely agreed! In fact, Heb 9:27 says men are destined to die once. They haven't died yet, but will during the Tribulation.


Correct, and Jesus took them all to heaven when He went to Hades, to preach to the spirits.


But they have been in heaven SINCE Jesus' resurrection, and where ALL NT saints go at death. I see no difference.


I do the math and realize that those who belong to him ARE all saints. Not just a separate group of saints.

Dan. 12:1-2
And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt

WHEN will they awake? AT the time the Jews are rescued. WHEN will that be? At the end of the tribulation. Jesus said "on the last day."

This timing does not fit or agree with Paul's timing for the rapture.

Next, the church age must end before the Day of the Lord starts. Many people don't get that. I think Paul hints strongly that the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.

You can do all the math, but the scriptures tell a different story. Want to find a resurrection in Revelation? Look for an earthquake. God has left us hints that at a resurrection, there is going to be a resulting earthquake.

 

[Absolutely]

"""

My comments were in blue.

You quoted it but left no explanation. In context I was talking about your statement of the dead in Christ being a much larger group and your statement that they were in heaven. Yes, certainly in heaven - UNTIL Jesus brings them WITH HIM to the rapture event. That was my point: they come WITH Him to join with their bodies.

OK, we are in agreement here.


Could you please cite or quote the verse you have in mind. This kind of response leave one hanging. I have no idea what verse you are thinking of.


Until I have the 1 Thess 5 verse that you only refer to, I cannot make further comment. I do agree, however, that 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:17 refer to the same event. Obviously.


Exactly. And all believers since Adam are also His. Can't argue otherwise.


Well, I think your view of "in Christ" limits the scope. Everyone who ever believed is IN CHRIST'S care and salvation. That should be obvious.

btw, if you make this artificial distinction, when are the OT saints resurrected? Or ever?


I don't see how this makes any difference? Just WHO did the OT believers believe IN? Christ Himself. You are making a distinction without a difference. Everyone who has believed IN CHRIST is "in Christ". It cannot be otherwise. That makes no sense.


Glad that you bring up Moses. Let's see what the Bible says about your "distinction without a difference" idea.

Heb 11:26 - He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

So please don't tell me that Moses is not "in Christ". He believed in Him.

btw, who was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration?[/QUOTE]""""



Jesus preached the gospel to the saints in paradise after he was crucified.
The bible says he took captivity captive..took them to heaven
They, with Jesus Are the "firstfruits".

Main harvest is the rapture.

Your template omits marriage supper in heaven...among other things.

 

[lamad]

Nope.... Jesus made sure he framed Noah " before the flood".

Jesus also invokes lot ( try and disprove the pre judgement dynamic of lot)

You are reaching

After Jesus said " before the food" he invokes Noah, the one taken/ left", and then, in the same breath " watching, waiting, being ready"

Not convinced?

Then IN THE SAME BREATH Jesus tells of the rapture in the 10 virgins

(Being ready)...and 50% left behind.

But noah was removed into the ark FIRST along with the animals.

The ark is a type of heaven.
( Gods dwelling place)

Solid bible.
50 % LEFT BEHIND

I did not think I would have to spell it out for you

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice the "for" We could also say "because" or "this is why I am saying "so it will be..."
What is Jesus meaning in verse 38? It means they are just living normal lives as every does. Verse 39: they woke up that morning thinking it would be another day like yesterday: "they knew nothing..." I maintain my point: Jesus purpose in referencing Noah was to think about the suddenness of their destruction: they knew nothing about their destruction until it happened. This is not "reaching," it is understanding.

Verse 40 switches from Noah back to the future: two people - one taken one left: but with the thought of Noah behind it: the one destroyed had NO IDEA a moment before that their time was up.

Yes, the idea of Noah is there in the "be ready." Because When the rapture comes, it will be sudden - just like those in Noah's day and in Lot's day. There will be no time to "get ready." (we cannot just ignore that word "FOR." Did Jesus bring up animals? No. His only point was to bring up the suddenness of their destruction.
I think we agree on most things! ;-)

 

[Absolutely]

My words are in red. in post 1076
It would not let me put the post in a quote box

 

[Absolutely]

I did not think I would have to spell it out for you

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice the "for" We could also say "because" or "this is why I am saying "so it will be..."
What is Jesus meaning in verse 38? It means they are just living normal lives as every does. Verse 39: they woke up that morning thinking it would be another day like yesterday: "they knew nothing..." I maintain my point: Jesus purpose in referencing Noah was to think about the suddenness of their destruction: they knew nothing about their destruction until it happened. This is not "reaching," it is understanding.

Verse 40 switches from Noah back to the future: two people - one taken one left: but with the thought of Noah behind it: the one destroyed had NO IDEA a moment before that their time was up.

Yes, the idea of Noah is there in the "be ready." Because When the rapture comes, it will be sudden - just like those in Noah's day and in Lot's day. There will be no time to "get ready." (we cannot just ignore that word "FOR." Did Jesus bring up animals? No. His only point was to bring up the suddenness of their destruction.
I think we agree on most things! ;-)

Show me how lot is a "sudden only" with no other possible dynamic

 

[Absolutely]

I did not think I would have to spell it out for you

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice the "for" We could also say "because" or "this is why I am saying "so it will be..."
What is Jesus meaning in verse 38? It means they are just living normal lives as every does. Verse 39: they woke up that morning thinking it would be another day like yesterday: "they knew nothing..." I maintain my point: Jesus purpose in referencing Noah was to think about the suddenness of their destruction: they knew nothing about their destruction until it happened. This is not "reaching," it is understanding.

Verse 40 switches from Noah back to the future: two people - one taken one left: but with the thought of Noah behind it: the one destroyed had NO IDEA a moment before that their time was up.

Yes, the idea of Noah is there in the "be ready." Because When the rapture comes, it will be sudden - just like those in Noah's day and in Lot's day. There will be no time to "get ready." (we cannot just ignore that word "FOR." Did Jesus bring up animals? No. His only point was to bring up the suddenness of their destruction.
I think we agree on most things! ;-)

I am not sure the point you are trying to make.
Maybe i dont see it.

Sudden only?

Not sure.