50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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GaryA

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Revelation 13:7-8
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Verse 7 is past history. Verse 8 is future.
 

GaryA

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I think the nuances and finer points are escaping you my friend.
I think the nuances and finer points are escaping most of you.

Why did I say what I said in post #121 ???

Do you understand the parenthetical statements in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 ??

Yes or No ?
 

Truth7t7

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What is the time span of verse 29?

(3.5 years)

The actual AoD occured in 167 B.C.

Do you understand the parenthetical statements in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 ??

Yes or No ?
There is no 3.5 year gap between immediately after and the second coming, your using that rubber yardstick, trying desperately to make your Historicism fit

No the Abomination of desolation didnt take place in 167AD with Antiochus Epiphanies, it's a future event unfulfilled, that will see the (Little Horn/Antichrist) present on earth until the (Consummation) The End!

Merrian-Webster
Definition of consummation


1: the act of consummatingthe consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 

GaryA

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The saints seen are the (Two Witnesses) not the entire church as many teach, that will be killed, just days before the second coming.

(Same Event Below)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Not the same event.

First is past history. Second is future.

The 'targets' are entirely different.
 

Truth7t7

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I think the nuances and finer points are escaping most of you.

Why did I say what I said in post #121 ???
The nuances and finer points are in a false interpretation of scripture, better known as Preterism in Historicism

The Great Tribulation Ans Little Horn, Or Man Of Sin, The Beast, OrThe Antichrist is are future events unfulfilled.
 

GaryA

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For then shall be [the] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)
Relative to the time the words were written.

I have inserted "the" here because it is "the Tribulation, the Great" (in Greek) in Revelation 7.
MAJOR BLUNDER!!!
 

Truth7t7

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Not the same event.

First is past history. Second is future.

The 'targets' are entirely different.
I disagree,the 1260 days ofthe two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast are the same time frame (Future)

You falsely believe these events have been fulfilled in history, a false teaching known as (Preterism)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Yes, it is - twice. It helps to define the context of the verse. However, it does not provide any sense of precise measure of time as to the length of it.
Okay... but did you agree with any part of the rest of my post (which was an effort to explain how we can determine the length intended)??

--Rev7:14 ("THE GREAT tribulation") connects back with what Jesus said in Matt24:21,15

--Matt24:21,15 then connects back with Dan12:11 ("A[singular]ofD[singular]), which context (vv.6-7,1) provides an answer to "how long?" ('for a time, times, and an half')

--Dan12:11 and vv.6-7,1 then connects back with Dan7:25,27, where v.25 also says "a time, and times, and the dividing of time" (and parts of vv.20-25[v.11] correspond with Rev13:5-7,1)

--Dan7:25,27 then corresponds with Rev12:14 "for a time, times, and half a time" (where the "[re: the woman...] ...FLY to the wilderness" corresponds to what Jesus had said in Matt24:21,15[16] "FLEE into the mountains")

--Rev12:14 then connects back with Rev12:6 "[re: the woman]... FLED into the wilderness" and saying "that they should feed her there 1260 days"



... and my view is that, even though Dan12:6-7,1 (the answer to "how long...?") is worded distinctly from Dan7:25,27 (Hebrew vs. Aramaic), I believe they speak of the exact same time-period... but that 12:6-7 uses words that will be made abundantly clear to those Jews/Israel who find themselves in that future time period, and who will have come to faith during same [that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], that this is to whom [i.e "the WISE [of Israel]," per context] that the words in v.4 will most especially apply ("knowledge shall be increased"), who will "understand" (v.10 "the WISE will understand") the specificity with which 12:6-7 phrases the time-period... IOW, it isn't just "any random time-period [start and finish]" but instead, very specific (per the wording here in vv.6-7).

My conclusion: a very specific set of 1260 days.


[and recall: Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says the future aspects of that Book are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... and these other passages are just a PART of that, namely from the 5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth MID-point... there will then be 1260 days remaining until the END of the trib... and this corresponds with Rev12:12's "because he [Satan] knoweth he hath but A SHORT TIME"... and if my recollection is accurate, that phrase (in the bold) used elsewhere never meant "a lengthy period of time" ;) ]
 

Truth7t7

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Relative to the time the words were written.


MAJOR BLUNDER!!!
Relative To The Time The Words Were Written?

(No No Ever Shall Be) Has No Time Frame (FACT)

World War II with 75 million casualties, with 6 millions Jews in the count, and you want to claim this was fulfilled historically prior to 1940 and World War II o_O

More rubber rulers Gary, trying to put glue on the torn patchwork of Historicism in Preterism, toooo many isms my friend :giggle:

In Love!

Jesus Christ Is Lord!
 

GaryA

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The 1260 days of the two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast is the same exact time frame of 3.5 years

What does the world receiving the mark of the beast, have to do with the fact of the "saints" that the beast makes war with is the two witnesses?
Nope.

and

Wrong.
 

GaryA

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I disagree,the 1260 days ofthe two Witnesses and 42 months of The Beast are the same time frame (Future)

You falsely believe these events have been fulfilled in history, a false teaching known as (Preterism)
I don't believe everything has been fulfilled in history - only some of it.
 

GaryA

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Okay... but did you agree with any part of the rest of my post (which was an effort to explain how we can determine the length intended)??
No. Sorry. I don't believe it all goes together the way you have described it.
 

GaryA

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World War II with 75 million casualties, with 6 millions Jews in the count, and you want to claim this was fulfilled historically prior to 1940 and World War II
WW2 is part of it.
 

Truth7t7

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I don't believe everything has been fulfilled in history - only some of it.
Gary openly admit to the forum, you dont believe in a future (Little Horn) (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) please correct me if I'm wrong? :giggle:
 

Truth7t7

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WW2 is part of it.
World War II is part of progressive tribulations as historicism teaches, will it be worse than World War II in the future, (No Nor Ever Shall Be)?
 

GaryA

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World War II is part of progressive tribulations as historicism teaches, will it be worse than World War II in the future, (No Nor Ever Shall Be)?
You still just don't get it - do you????? :rolleyes:

The GT includes everything ("trouble") from the ~70 A.D. events at Jerusalem until the end of the GT - which is future...

(And --- the worst is yet to come.)