-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
W
Rev 20 does not promise Christians 1000 years of glorious world-wide eutopia. Christians might expect such, seeing themselves as "deserving" or some such.
But Rev 20 only promises 1000 years of reign, not promising world-wide dominion, nor eutopia, nor peace, nor anything. Rev 20 only promises "Christians will be legal rulers for 1000 years". In Byzantium, emperors were Christian for ~1000 years. The dimensions of the Byzantine empire, in the eastern Mediterranean, closely resemble the 12,000 stadia = 2400km = 1400mi of Rev 21.
something is causing confusion...
the "four corners of the earth" phrases all apply, to Satan, and Gog & Magog, after the fall of the Christian Millennium; Rev only promises Satan world-wide dominion (until the Mighty White Throne arrives, for the coup-de-grace). Satanic forces, will "high-jack" earth, commandeering control of the "space-ship earth passenger compartments" -- like the Muslims who took over the Achille Lauro in 1985, but space-ship-earth-world-wide -- holding earth in submission, until "God in heaven" emerges therefrom.
Then, "fire from heaven" = Game Over.
But Rev 20 only promises 1000 years of reign, not promising world-wide dominion, nor eutopia, nor peace, nor anything. Rev 20 only promises "Christians will be legal rulers for 1000 years". In Byzantium, emperors were Christian for ~1000 years. The dimensions of the Byzantine empire, in the eastern Mediterranean, closely resemble the 12,000 stadia = 2400km = 1400mi of Rev 21.
something is causing confusion...
the "four corners of the earth" phrases all apply, to Satan, and Gog & Magog, after the fall of the Christian Millennium; Rev only promises Satan world-wide dominion (until the Mighty White Throne arrives, for the coup-de-grace). Satanic forces, will "high-jack" earth, commandeering control of the "space-ship earth passenger compartments" -- like the Muslims who took over the Achille Lauro in 1985, but space-ship-earth-world-wide -- holding earth in submission, until "God in heaven" emerges therefrom.
Then, "fire from heaven" = Game Over.
W
First, i'd like to re-iterate, that Jesus Christ applied Dan 9 --> 70 AD. Jesus = Lord of Sabbath, greater than the Law (Matt 12). Jesus > Torah. Jesus could pin Dan 9, anywhere he wanted. If The Messiah says Dan 9 --> 70 AD, Q.E.D.
Second, you're saying
Crucifixion = 30 AD = end 62nd "seven"
7x7 = 30-79 AD
70th 7 = 79-86 AD ?
The "gap" from Crucifixion to Destruction of Jerusalem vaguely corresponds to the un-specified "seven sevens" of Dan 9; the 70th "seven" to the seven-year Jewish war, 66-73 AD, in the middle of which, the temple was destroyed, 70 AD
But, by similar logic, what if
62 x 7 = to 20 BC = Herod the Great began renovating temple
7 x 7 = to 30 AD = Crucifixion (John 2 = 46 years, at beginning of Jesus' 3 year ministry)
then, technically, the Crucifixion would have occurred, "after the 62 sevens" (but also after the 7x7). Then, either there is a "gap" until the 7 year Jewish war, in the middle of which the (physical) temple was destroyed; or the 70th "seven" = 7 decades = 70 years = Apostolic era of Church = 30-100 AD, Crucifixion to natural d. of the Apostle John, in the middle of which the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed (or both?).
Second, you're saying
Crucifixion = 30 AD = end 62nd "seven"
7x7 = 30-79 AD
70th 7 = 79-86 AD ?
The "gap" from Crucifixion to Destruction of Jerusalem vaguely corresponds to the un-specified "seven sevens" of Dan 9; the 70th "seven" to the seven-year Jewish war, 66-73 AD, in the middle of which, the temple was destroyed, 70 AD
But, by similar logic, what if
62 x 7 = to 20 BC = Herod the Great began renovating temple
7 x 7 = to 30 AD = Crucifixion (John 2 = 46 years, at beginning of Jesus' 3 year ministry)
then, technically, the Crucifixion would have occurred, "after the 62 sevens" (but also after the 7x7). Then, either there is a "gap" until the 7 year Jewish war, in the middle of which the (physical) temple was destroyed; or the 70th "seven" = 7 decades = 70 years = Apostolic era of Church = 30-100 AD, Crucifixion to natural d. of the Apostle John, in the middle of which the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed (or both?).
The beginning of the 62 week period described in Daniel 9:26 does not start counting at the end of the 7th week.
The last part of that verse ( from colon to end ) is not "stated" to align with anything in the entire passage.
The last part of that verse ( from colon to end ) is not "stated" to align with anything in the entire passage.
W
Rev 20 says Satan leads Gog & Magog vs. "the beloved city", which "must" mean the Church:
- Harlot (Rev 17) = Babylon = Jerusalem = apostate Jews symbolized as "unfaithful wife"
- Bride (Rev 12) = faithful Jews + gentiles symbolized as "faithful wife" = New Jerusalem = Church symbolized as building constructed from Jasper-like gem-stones, each of which symbolizes a single Christian convert
G
I am saying:
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.
This is from memory. I lost my notes from the study years ago.
NOW --- this thread has gotten side-tracked ( again ) -- and, I want it to get back on track - by examining Luke 21:24 as I have been trying to do for weeks...
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too! -- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole!
THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.
This is from memory. I lost my notes from the study years ago.
NOW --- this thread has gotten side-tracked ( again ) -- and, I want it to get back on track - by examining Luke 21:24 as I have been trying to do for weeks...
Luke 21:24 must be a very powerful verse -- and intimidating, too!
-- because nobody seems to be willing to touch it with a 1000-foot pole! THIS verse seems to create questions -- the possible answers to which I want to discuss.
I do not want to discuss "outside" or "third party" opinions. I want to know how YOU ( other CCers ) interpret this verse - in the context of the Olivet Discourse passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
I believe that it aligns with Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 - which both describe the beginning of "a period of great tribulation":
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ~ Matthew 24:21
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ~ Mark 13:19
The end of that same 'great tribulation' is marked by what is described in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27. ( Please see the chart. )
So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
Last edited:
Dear GRA,
The Luke version of the Olivet Discourse always bothers me as it, on the surface, appears to conflict with both Matthew and Mark's account. However, I do have an explanation that I will share. First let’s sets the stage and look at how each author poses the questions:
Matthew:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mark:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
Luke:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
So we have Peter, James, John and Andrew who were there to hear the reply of the Lord. Interestingly, none of these guys give the account. It is given second hand by Matthew, Mark and Luke. Since each account is divine, each account must be consistent to the others and the rest of the Bible.
I believe that there are dual aspects of this prophesy. Matthew and Mark focus more on the description of the End Times where Luke on the events surrounding AD 70. See how Luke is focusing on the first question as it relates to the temple? Both accounts have Jesus telling the people to flee, when to flee and what to hope for. There is an Abomination in the Temple in both accounts.
Since none of the authors of the Discourse were there, the Lord can use them to teach different things. Let's study further.
MARK'S ACCOUNT
The Great Tribulation
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]e][/SUP] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]18 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
MATTHEW'S ACCOUNT:
The Great Tribulation
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
LUKE'S ACCOUNT:
The Destruction of Jerusalem
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
You can see from the headings of the NKJV that Luke's account describes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 while the other events are end times. Matthew and Mark specifically reference the Abomination of Desolation as spoke of by Daniel. Luke only mentions the desolation of Jerusalem with no reference to Daniel or the abomination, although we know there was one in 70 AD too. Luke also describes the time of AD 70 with people fleeing to the mountains. Some of the zealots of the day fled to Masada. The days of the Gentiles are from then until the grafting of the church into Israel is complete. Hope this makes sense?
The Luke version of the Olivet Discourse always bothers me as it, on the surface, appears to conflict with both Matthew and Mark's account. However, I do have an explanation that I will share. First let’s sets the stage and look at how each author poses the questions:
Matthew:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mark:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”
Luke:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
So we have Peter, James, John and Andrew who were there to hear the reply of the Lord. Interestingly, none of these guys give the account. It is given second hand by Matthew, Mark and Luke. Since each account is divine, each account must be consistent to the others and the rest of the Bible.
I believe that there are dual aspects of this prophesy. Matthew and Mark focus more on the description of the End Times where Luke on the events surrounding AD 70. See how Luke is focusing on the first question as it relates to the temple? Both accounts have Jesus telling the people to flee, when to flee and what to hope for. There is an Abomination in the Temple in both accounts.
Since none of the authors of the Discourse were there, the Lord can use them to teach different things. Let's study further.
MARK'S ACCOUNT
The Great Tribulation
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]e][/SUP] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]18 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
MATTHEW'S ACCOUNT:
The Great Tribulation
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
LUKE'S ACCOUNT:
The Destruction of Jerusalem
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
You can see from the headings of the NKJV that Luke's account describes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 while the other events are end times. Matthew and Mark specifically reference the Abomination of Desolation as spoke of by Daniel. Luke only mentions the desolation of Jerusalem with no reference to Daniel or the abomination, although we know there was one in 70 AD too. Luke also describes the time of AD 70 with people fleeing to the mountains. Some of the zealots of the day fled to Masada. The days of the Gentiles are from then until the grafting of the church into Israel is complete. Hope this makes sense?
G
PlainWord:
I appreciate the response; however...
~ These three accounts are of the same event - the same men asking the same questions -- the intent behind the questions cannot be different from one account to the next. In all three accounts, the men are still asking for a sign to "tip them off" that "the end is near" / "stuff is about to happen" - the wording may a little different from one account to another, but the intent is the same. ( One event. One group of men. One set of questions. One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Whatever was said and heard ( the complete discourse ) in one account is the same for the others. Some of the details recorded may be different for each account; nonetheless, it is still three different accounts of the one same event and discourse.
~ These are the ROWS in the chart that I believe can possibly be related to events around 70 A.D. : 3-4,9,11,16-18,26. The rest are strictly future from a 70 A.D. perspective.
Please also see the 'Comments' in "the little chart after the big chart": Chronological Order
I appreciate the response; however...
~ These three accounts are of the same event - the same men asking the same questions -- the intent behind the questions cannot be different from one account to the next. In all three accounts, the men are still asking for a sign to "tip them off" that "the end is near" / "stuff is about to happen" - the wording may a little different from one account to another, but the intent is the same. ( One event. One group of men. One set of questions. One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Whatever was said and heard ( the complete discourse ) in one account is the same for the others. Some of the details recorded may be different for each account; nonetheless, it is still three different accounts of the one same event and discourse.
~ These are the ROWS in the chart that I believe can possibly be related to events around 70 A.D. : 3-4,9,11,16-18,26. The rest are strictly future from a 70 A.D. perspective.
Please also see the 'Comments' in "the little chart after the big chart": Chronological Order
PlainWord:
I appreciate the response; however...
~ These three accounts are of the same event - the same men asking the same questions -- the intent behind the questions cannot be different from one account to the next. In all three accounts, the men are still asking for a sign to "tip them off" that "the end is near" / "stuff is about to happen" - the wording may a little different from one account to another, but the intent is the same. ( One event. One group of men. One set of questions. One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Whatever was said and heard ( the complete discourse ) in one account is the same for the others. Some of the details recorded may be different for each account; nonetheless, it is still three different accounts of the one same event and discourse.
~ These are the ROWS in the chart that I believe can possibly be related to events around 70 A.D. : 3-4,9,11,16-18,26. The rest are strictly future from a 70 A.D. perspective.
Please also see the 'Comments' in "the little chart after the big chart": Chronological Order
I appreciate the response; however...
~ These three accounts are of the same event - the same men asking the same questions -- the intent behind the questions cannot be different from one account to the next. In all three accounts, the men are still asking for a sign to "tip them off" that "the end is near" / "stuff is about to happen" - the wording may a little different from one account to another, but the intent is the same. ( One event. One group of men. One set of questions. One answer. Three separate accounts. )
Whatever was said and heard ( the complete discourse ) in one account is the same for the others. Some of the details recorded may be different for each account; nonetheless, it is still three different accounts of the one same event and discourse.
~ These are the ROWS in the chart that I believe can possibly be related to events around 70 A.D. : 3-4,9,11,16-18,26. The rest are strictly future from a 70 A.D. perspective.
Please also see the 'Comments' in "the little chart after the big chart": Chronological Order
I hear what you are saying, as noted, the 3 accounts give slightly different variations. This is the case with all the same stories in the Gospels whether it is the feeding of the 5,000, the various parables, the account of the birth of Christ, death of Christ or Resurrection, etc. Each version gives slightly different details and adds to each other. The Olivet Discourse is no different. What appears on the surface to be in conflict vis a vie events around AD 70 and future events are in fact consistent.
It is entirely possible that the Lord used the same descriptive words, warnings and such for both periods, AD 70 and end time events. Let's just look at Matthews and Luke's account as they are most vivid.
Matthew posses 3 distinct questions:
Matthew:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “#1Tell us, when will these things be? And #2what will be the sign of Your coming, and #3of the end of the age?”
Luke's version asks just 2 questions:
Luke:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So they asked Him, saying, “#1Teacher, but when will these things be? And #2what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”
Matthew's account contains 3 questions, whereas Luke asks 2 questions. So clearly they are recounting the experience differently. So, just as clearly, it should not be surprising that Luke is more focused on the part describing the more immediate future, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple vs. Matthew who is focused on the part dealing more with the Lord's coming. Luke skips the Great Tribulation part of Jesus' reply altogether and he jumps from the AD 70 stuff straight to the Coming of the Son of Man whereas Matthew and Mark include the Tribulation stuff.
Luke doesn't discuss the "Abomination of Desolation as mentioned by Daniel" where the others do. Luke's reference to "Desolation" refers to the desolation of Jerusalem circa AD 70. This is clear from the other things he is talking about such as, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, flee to the mountains. Falling by the edge of the sword, being lead away captive and the time of the Gentiles are all unique to Luke's account." Even during the discussion of the end times Luke makes reference to the seas and waves roaring and hearts failing from fear which the others don't mention.
In the end, I think we need to take all 3 accounts as you are doing and blend them together to get the true picture.
The thing that is tricky and confusing and took me the longest time to figure out is the apparent use of the same warnings, i.e., flee to the mountains, woe to those who are pregnant and nursing babies. Again, Luke seems to be using these phrases in connection with AD 70 stuff while Matthew and Mark use them in connection with the Great Trib. Jesus providing the same warnings for both periods explain things for me. Not sure if this satisfies you?
G
I do not see any conflict. I see all three accounts very consistantly giving common details about all of the same "events in time" - more or less details are given from one account to the next about each "event in time"; however, there is still enough "parallel" across all three accounts to draw the conclusion that is represented in the row-by-row comparison of verses that is illustrated in the chart.
A lot of things are "possible" -- the question to answer is - 'What is this passage of scripture [actually] trying to tell me?' ( Without me distorting it by what I would "like" for it to say. Without me trying to mold it or shape it in any way to fit some "theoretical postulation" ... We get ourselves into "error-prone trouble" when we stray too far from keeping this question at the center of our quest for understanding of a particular passage of scripture. The moment we start "speaking to it" instead of letting it "speak to us" - we have waded into treacherous waters where interpretation is concerned. )
I am not accusing you of anything -- I am just saying, 'We have to be careful...'.
I have to disagree. The Matthew account does not pose three distinct questions.
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ~ Matthew 24:3
Grammatically speaking, both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' are prepositional to 'the sign' -- both are descriptive modifications of 'what shall be the sign' -- both "go together" as two 'facets' of the same 'event' - which is to be "indicated" by 'the sign'. ( And, considering that the Second Coming of Christ actually marks 'the end of the world'... ( as related in the context of this verse ) )
It makes even more sense if you also take into account what is contained in the Order of Events chart in my 'study' thread with the same title.
Again, I have to disagree.
It is largely the details themselves - and knowing that they are three accounts of the same event and discourse - that enable us to build the "parallel" between the three accounts.
A lot of things are "possible" -- the question to answer is - 'What is this passage of scripture [actually] trying to tell me?' ( Without me distorting it by what I would "like" for it to say. Without me trying to mold it or shape it in any way to fit some "theoretical postulation" ... We get ourselves into "error-prone trouble" when we stray too far from keeping this question at the center of our quest for understanding of a particular passage of scripture. The moment we start "speaking to it" instead of letting it "speak to us" - we have waded into treacherous waters where interpretation is concerned. )
I am not accusing you of anything -- I am just saying, 'We have to be careful...'.
I have to disagree. The Matthew account does not pose three distinct questions.
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ~ Matthew 24:3
Grammatically speaking, both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' are prepositional to 'the sign' -- both are descriptive modifications of 'what shall be the sign' -- both "go together" as two 'facets' of the same 'event' - which is to be "indicated" by 'the sign'. ( And, considering that the Second Coming of Christ actually marks 'the end of the world'... ( as related in the context of this verse ) )
It makes even more sense if you also take into account what is contained in the Order of Events chart in my 'study' thread with the same title.
Again, I have to disagree.
It is largely the details themselves - and knowing that they are three accounts of the same event and discourse - that enable us to build the "parallel" between the three accounts.
GRA,
I guess it would have helped if I saw your chart first. I wasn't able to open it at first but just got it working. It is quite a masterpiece, I am very impressed!!
I don't think we differ very much in our opinions here. As my moniker suggests, I am all about not interpreting too much and reading and understanding what is actually written. Without getting into a grammatical debate, it is clear to me that the three versions of the Olivet Discourse, while nearly identical in most aspects, have major differences. Those differences have been exhaustively discussed. We will have to agree to disagree that Luke's version was more descriptive of AD 70 Jerusalem events while Matthew and Mark were more about the Tribulation and end times. I don't think this minor disagreement alters your chart in any meaningful way so I'm happy to drop it.
I want to discuss your chart (which I am still studying). I have a different take on a few things but absolutely AGREE that the Rapture comes with or immediately after the 7th Trump. I think the most compelling verse for the timing of the Rapture is 1 Cor 15:52 which I don't see you using:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I disagree that the first 5 seals are part of the actual Tribulation. I think they are part of the "Beginnings of Sorrows" spoken of by Jesus. I base this on several things:
1. There isn't time in a 7 year period for 3 major, global or near global, wars plus a great economic depression and still have time for the other end time events.
2. If the seals were part of the Tribulation, then clearly the saints at the 5th seal would not be impatient because they would know that God's revenge was imminent. I think the saints are restless because the seals are being opened over time.
3. Several very significant events happened in the 19th century that to me align with Jesus' repeated warnings of "deceptions." In the 1800s we had John Darby coming out with the Pre-Trib Rapture theory that has fooled most of the modern church. We had Charles Darwin's Origin of Species (Evolution) that replaced God as creator of the universe. We had the start of the New World Order concept with the Jacobians, Illuminati, Free Masons, etc. Certainly in this country we had a explosion of new faiths begin (without naming names) that don't always follow the clear teaching of the Word.
4. Nothing in the scriptures says the seals are part of the Tribulation or suggests it, rather that the seal the events.
Unless I missed it, I don't see the 6th seal unless you subscribe to the idea that the 7 trumps are part of the 6th seal?
I guess it would have helped if I saw your chart first. I wasn't able to open it at first but just got it working. It is quite a masterpiece, I am very impressed!!
I don't think we differ very much in our opinions here. As my moniker suggests, I am all about not interpreting too much and reading and understanding what is actually written. Without getting into a grammatical debate, it is clear to me that the three versions of the Olivet Discourse, while nearly identical in most aspects, have major differences. Those differences have been exhaustively discussed. We will have to agree to disagree that Luke's version was more descriptive of AD 70 Jerusalem events while Matthew and Mark were more about the Tribulation and end times. I don't think this minor disagreement alters your chart in any meaningful way so I'm happy to drop it.
I want to discuss your chart (which I am still studying). I have a different take on a few things but absolutely AGREE that the Rapture comes with or immediately after the 7th Trump. I think the most compelling verse for the timing of the Rapture is 1 Cor 15:52 which I don't see you using:
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I disagree that the first 5 seals are part of the actual Tribulation. I think they are part of the "Beginnings of Sorrows" spoken of by Jesus. I base this on several things:
1. There isn't time in a 7 year period for 3 major, global or near global, wars plus a great economic depression and still have time for the other end time events.
2. If the seals were part of the Tribulation, then clearly the saints at the 5th seal would not be impatient because they would know that God's revenge was imminent. I think the saints are restless because the seals are being opened over time.
3. Several very significant events happened in the 19th century that to me align with Jesus' repeated warnings of "deceptions." In the 1800s we had John Darby coming out with the Pre-Trib Rapture theory that has fooled most of the modern church. We had Charles Darwin's Origin of Species (Evolution) that replaced God as creator of the universe. We had the start of the New World Order concept with the Jacobians, Illuminati, Free Masons, etc. Certainly in this country we had a explosion of new faiths begin (without naming names) that don't always follow the clear teaching of the Word.
4. Nothing in the scriptures says the seals are part of the Tribulation or suggests it, rather that the seal the events.
Unless I missed it, I don't see the 6th seal unless you subscribe to the idea that the 7 trumps are part of the 6th seal?
G
Are you talking about the Olivet Discourse chart or the Order of Events chart?
The 'charts' from all three of my 'study' threads been a great study tool for me. I am hoping others can get some good out of them as well...
I am not disputing this at all -- as I said:
I believe all three accounts at least "touch on" all of the same "event scopes" / "time frames" - some in more detail, some in less detail.
Please see post #31.
Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not give any indication whatsoever as to the exact length of the great tribulation.
( It only tells us when it begins - and when it ends... ( In terms of order-of-events, not mark-in-time. ) )
I believe the first four seals were 'opened' - "one at a time" - "slowly" - across the past ~ 2000 years. ( starting at some point after 70 A.D. )
I believe we may now be "in the early part of" seal 4 --- that is - it has begun - but is not "fully fulfilled" yet.
I am thinking that seal 5 is "somewhere around now" --- "plus or minus" ... ( 'plus' -> "still in the 'near-range' future" )
I am quite sure that seal 6 is future - and is post-tribulation. It includes seven trumps and possibly more... See my Order of Events chart.
The 'charts' from all three of my 'study' threads been a great study tool for me. I am hoping others can get some good out of them as well...
I am not disputing this at all -- as I said:
I believe all three accounts at least "touch on" all of the same "event scopes" / "time frames" - some in more detail, some in less detail.
Please see post #31.
Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not give any indication whatsoever as to the exact length of the great tribulation.
( It only tells us when it begins - and when it ends... ( In terms of order-of-events, not mark-in-time. ) )
I believe the first four seals were 'opened' - "one at a time" - "slowly" - across the past ~ 2000 years. ( starting at some point after 70 A.D. )
I believe we may now be "in the early part of" seal 4 --- that is - it has begun - but is not "fully fulfilled" yet.
I am thinking that seal 5 is "somewhere around now" --- "plus or minus" ... ( 'plus' -> "still in the 'near-range' future" )
I am quite sure that seal 6 is future - and is post-tribulation. It includes seven trumps and possibly more... See my Order of Events chart.
Are you talking about the Olivet Discourse chart or the Order of Events chart?
The 'charts' from all three of my 'study' threads been a great study tool for me. I am hoping others can get some good out of them as well...
I am not disputing this at all -- as I said:
I believe all three accounts at least "touch on" all of the same "event scopes" / "time frames" - some in more detail, some in less detail.
Please see post #31.
Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not give any indication whatsoever as to the exact length of the great tribulation.
( It only tells us when it begins - and when it ends... ( In terms of order-of-events, not mark-in-time. ) )
I believe the first four seals were 'opened' - "one at a time" - "slowly" - across the past ~ 2000 years. ( starting at some point after 70 A.D. )
I believe we may now be "in the early part of" seal 4 --- that is - it has begun - but is not "fully fulfilled" yet.
I am thinking that seal 5 is "somewhere around now" --- "plus or minus" ... ( 'plus' -> "still in the 'near-range' future" )
I am quite sure that seal 6 is future - and is post-tribulation. It includes seven trumps and possibly more... See my Order of Events chart.
The 'charts' from all three of my 'study' threads been a great study tool for me. I am hoping others can get some good out of them as well...
I am not disputing this at all -- as I said:
I believe all three accounts at least "touch on" all of the same "event scopes" / "time frames" - some in more detail, some in less detail.
Please see post #31.
Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not give any indication whatsoever as to the exact length of the great tribulation.
( It only tells us when it begins - and when it ends... ( In terms of order-of-events, not mark-in-time. ) )
I believe the first four seals were 'opened' - "one at a time" - "slowly" - across the past ~ 2000 years. ( starting at some point after 70 A.D. )
I believe we may now be "in the early part of" seal 4 --- that is - it has begun - but is not "fully fulfilled" yet.
I am thinking that seal 5 is "somewhere around now" --- "plus or minus" ... ( 'plus' -> "still in the 'near-range' future" )
I am quite sure that seal 6 is future - and is post-tribulation. It includes seven trumps and possibly more... See my Order of Events chart.
I can buy that we have finished the 4th seal if that seal was Hitler as he sure fits and WWII lead to the formation of Israel. This would mean the 3rd seal was the Great Depression of the 1930s. If that was the case, the next event for us on earth would be the 6th seal.
G
The Great Tribulation, the trumpet events, and the Wrath of God are three separable things - from a time-frame point of view.
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
The Great Tribulation is not 'wrath' from God -- 'wrath' from Satan, perhaps...
The statement from Revelation 6:16-17 is made from a post-Second-Coming-of-Christ point of view.
From the descriptions of the vials and of the trumpet events, I believe that we can correctly view each of them as an ordered sequence of events. With the seals, it is a bit different. Each seal may be considered as a sort of "viewport" into a particular set of events contained within a particular time-frame. The time-frame of seal #5 is quite short. The time-frame for each of the first four seals is much longer - ranging even into the hundreds of years... And, there are overlaps - of the time-frames of the seals - and between the time-frames of the seals and other recorded events - such as the trumpet events and the vials...
( EDIT: The beginning points of the seals are time-order-sequenced. )
See my Order of Events chart.
Pay close attention to the details...
Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? ---------- and the bottomless pit?
Feel free to ask me if you do not see why something is in a particular place on the chart. But, please ask in the Order of Events thread --- so as to keep each of the threads "on track"...
Last edited: