A pre-tribulation coming?

[WolfInOxHide]

"Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel."


"Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four messengers which are bound in the great river Euphrates ("fruitfulness"). And the four messengers were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."


Flown away physically, or prepared for a spiritual battle?

"And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege."

Peace.

 

[peterT]

Peter T let me ask you this: Do you consider the church to be the bride of Christ? Do you know what happens to brides back in ancient Israel? If you can answer both of those questions you know why a pre-trib rapture is coming. OH, yeah that information is not in scripture so look it up somewhere else, show some initiative.

For those who are "in Christ" Jesus, have already experienced the wrath of God given to Christ Jesus on the cross. (Read Isaiah 53)

Of course for those who insist on going through the great tribulation, you probably will, because you are not "in Christ."

The "tribulation, the great tribulation" written about in John's Revelation is God's wrath on the Earth. It is not a series of natural catastrophes that humans are just going to have to suffer through for discipline's sake, it is not some purification ritual, it is God's wrath as payment for humankind's unredeemed sin.

Oh in the mean time, there will be tribulation but it is merely natural disasters or other human caused tribulation. On a human scale it may seem to be great.

Well you haven’t shown Jesus coming before the tribulation.

No raising the dead before the tribulation.

No Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.

No trumpet sounding before the tribulation.

No resurrection before the tribulation

No Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation

No voice of an angel before the tribulation.

Nothing.

And as for the wrath of God it comes on the wicked not the righteous.

Just like back in the days of Moses, they put the blood on the door, and the wrath of God passed them by.

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

You haven’t shown Nothing about Jesus coming before the tribulation, Or do you just want us to take your word for it.?


..

 

[Trax]

A pre-tribulation coming?

There is no pre-tribulation coming in the Bible, on one hand I wish there was, so we could go home sooner.

But there is no pre-tribulation coming in the bible, there’s no story in the Bible were Jesus comes before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were Jesus comes in the clouds before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were Jesus gathers us together before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were Jesus raises the dead before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were Jesus raises the living before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were the trumpet sounds before the tribulation.

There’s no event in the Bible were the Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation.

There’s no story in the Bible saying Jesus comes before the tribulation.

No chapter, no story, no event,

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot
of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven.

Mat 27:51-52 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and
the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the
saints which slept arose,

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (kinda of hard
to converse with dead people)

 

[peterT]

The rapture is a blessed hope when Christ, the Bridegroom, comes for His bride. A critical purpose of the rapture is to transform believers' bodies to a glorious and immortal one, like Christ's, fit for Heaven (Phil 3:20-21). While the inhabitants of Earth are facing the Great Tribulation, the Church will be in the Marriage supper of the Lamb and judgement seat of Christ (Bema seat) to receive or lose rewards (1 Cor 3:14-15). Then at the end of the seven-year tribulation, Christ will set foot on Earth (the second coming of Christ) as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords with His bride to establish His millennial kingdom.

Rev 3:10- Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Just as Noah and Lot were saved from destruction, the Church will also be saved from the wrath to come.

It funny how some Christians use the story of Noah to say it’s a pre-tribulation coming, when Jesus used that same story of Noah telling you that Immediately after the tribulation the son of man comes, and it will be like the days of Noah, one shall be taken, and the other left.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


...

 

[peterT]

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot
of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven.

Mat 27:51-52 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and
the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the
saints which slept arose,

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (kinda of hard
to converse with dead people)

And what’s your point Trax?

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Not to seem needy or anything lol, but does anyone have a perspective on what is happening in the 6th seal concerning the multitude that appears in heaven? This is in the same seal that the 144000 are sealed.

King James Version Revelation 7:9 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[Trax]

And what’s your point Trax?

You said it wasn't in your Bible. I showed it was in mine.

 

[peterT]

You said it wasn't in your Bible. I showed it was in mine.

Sorry it didn’t seem to show anything about Jesus coming before the tribulation.

Could you go into detail about those verses?

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot
of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven.

Mat 27:51-52 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and
the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the
saints which slept arose,

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: (kinda of hard
to converse with dead people)

 

[peterT]

Not to seem needy or anything lol, but does anyone have a perspective on what is happening in the 6th seal concerning the multitude that appears in heaven? This is in the same seal that the 144000 are sealed.

King James Version Revelation 7:9 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It doesn’t show a Jesus coming before the tribulation.

Nothing about the last trumpet before the tribulation.

Nothing about raising the dead before the tribulation.

Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.

Nothing about resurrection before the tribulation

Nothing about Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation

Nothing about the voice of an angel before the tribulation.

Nothing, and no event, about Jesus coming before the tribulation


And there not the only ones that are sealed.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

1 Corinthians 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

I believe that particular multitude is a quick vision of the end, as well as this one:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

I believe that a great multitude, "which no man can number", is...

Everyone.

 

[peterT]

I believe that particular multitude is a quick vision of the end, as well as this one:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

I believe that a great multitude, "which no man can number", is...

Everyone.

Is what?


It doesn’t show a Jesus coming before the tribulation.

Nothing about the last trumpet before the tribulation.

Nothing about raising the dead before the tribulation.

Nothing about Jesus coming in the clouds before the tribulation.

Nothing about resurrection before the tribulation

Nothing about Angels do any Reaping before the tribulation

Nothing about the voice of an angel before the tribulation.

Nothing, and no event, about Jesus coming before the tribulation

 

[Blain]

So i have a question, is there any events happening right now that are part of the prophesy? is there evidence right now to make us believe the final days are so close we could touch it? I ask this in excitement hoping that the final days are finally upon us. As soon as jesus opens that first seal I will be ready, I hope with all my heart i will be here when jesus returns so i may bow at his feet and ask him for me to serve him even further even in his wrath. People can still be saved even then. I am just so excited for the final days i imagined how i would act when it all goes down and i saw i would be jumping up and down in joy and excitement saying Its' finally time!

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Revelation 7: 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
� KJV

I'm not really too concerned about pre/mid/post tribulation, but I do like to hear the different perspectives. I see that as long as a person understands the message in Rev concerning watching and praying in readiness, and doctrine/works corrections from God, then the rest is always a good topic to get into. I don't think it's necessary to know exactly what happens, cause there's the seven thunders that were sealed up. I will say that I have observed that it is written concerning the 144000 before it is written concerning those who came out of great tribulation. I still don't know if "after" means before,during,or after. Either way, we obviously are not made to read more than one thing at a time, and so I see the 6th seal through all perspectives and yet I go for the quickest way out which is putting off this earthen vessel or being changed.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Is what?

Maybe you misunderstand, I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.
I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, which leaves the rest of the earth in an initial state of fear and blasphemy, followed by global repentance which corrects the world and lasts 1000 years.
And I believe that everyone is reconciled in the end.
And the scripture examples presented, the one about the innumerable multitude, and the one about all creatures praising, I subject are not things that occur "during" a "seal" or before tribulation starts, but rather pictures of the end result.

Because all the nations will remember and turn to YHWH.

 

[RickyZ]

'Of course for those who insist on going through the great tribulation, you probably will, because you are not "in Christ."

This wouldn't be judging another person's soul would it?
- Holy Smokes!

Actually, if you insist on not going thru it you are not in Christ, because Jesus says those who are not prepared for it will turn from Him.

 

[Katy-follower]

Copy/Paste....

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time. This prophecy makes it plain that the seventieth week (the Tribulation) is a time of purging and restoration for Israel and Jerusalem, not for the church.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. The pretribulational view seems to be the most in keeping with God’s character and His desire to deliver the righteous from the judgment of the world. Biblical examples of God’s salvation include Noah, who was delivered from the worldwide flood; Lot, who was delivered from Sodom; and Rahab, who was delivered from Jericho (2 Peter 2:6-9).

Pretribulationism also finds support in what is not found in Scripture. The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation.​

 

[peterT]

Pretribulationism also finds support in what is not found in Scripture. The word “church” appears nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but, significantly, the word is not used again until chapter 22. In other words, in the entire lengthy description of the Tribulation in Revelation, the word church is noticeably absent. In fact, the Bible never uses the word "church" in a passage relating to the Tribulation.​

The church is were two or three are gathered, so there is plenty of the church after chapter 3

And as for the wrath.

There we are standing on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast, then the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked at the end of the tribulation, jesus comes and gets us AFTER getting the victory over the beast, then the seven last plagues/wrath are poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast and worshipped his image.

Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

It’s the wrath of the trumpet plagues that come down during the tribulation

And Just like back in the days of Moses, they put the blood on the door, and the plagues/wrath of God passed them by.

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Its not God who is going to kill the church with his wrath, it’s the antichrist

 

[RickyZ]

This is why I hate the term 'Tribulation" . There are two distinct happenings within the 'tribulation'. The first is God's judgment, as wrought by the seals and the trumpets; the second is the pouring out of God's wrath from the bowls. God has NEVER excused His people from judgment, but He does protect us from His wrath. Thus, those events related to the trumpets and seals we will endure, while the conditions associated with the bowls we will escape. When will the dividing line fall? Hard to say exactly, but when you see Jerusalem surrounded and being evacuated don't bother grabbing your toothbrush.

 

[Blain]

when i read revalations i found it amazing how god shows mercy even in his wrath because he still wants people to repent and thus be saved.

 

[2LIVE4GOD]

then explain to me why there are two different events in Revelation showing a pre-tribulation rapture for the HOLY BRIDE MEMBERS only..... while the rest of the Church Body..... remains to go through the great tribulation.

and then we see the return of the King and Queen riding down from heaven after that great marriage feast in heaven which is the pre-tribulation rapture of the HOLY BRIDE and then their triumphant return as KING and QUEEN at the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

notice verse 16-17 which states clearly there shall be a pre-tribulation rapture and it shows the order of this which interweaves with Revelation 4:1 and then goes further to show us the tribulation period.

now lets also look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

notice verse 3 states clearly a rapture before the tribulation begins.

now lets take this a bit further.....

Revelation 4:1-2
1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

lets also look at Revelations 19 which shows us a pre-tribulation rapture/marriage feast of the Bride to its betrothed Groom. then it shows us after the marriage feast the second coming which is the return of the King and the Queen.

Revelation 19:7-10
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

now lets look at that second part of Revelation 19:11-14.

Revelation 19:11-14
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

so explain who are those mentioned in verse 14?

that's the HOLY BRIDE with her KING.........