Can you Sin and Not Die?

[zone]

he said it broke his heart everytime he lied,he overcame such besetting sin by crying out to God all night.

Psalm 6
O LORD, rebuke me not in your anger,
nor discipline me in your wrath.
2 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am languishing;
heal me, O LORD, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled.
But you, O LORD—how long?

4 Turn, O LORD, deliver my life;
save me for the sake of your steadfast love.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of you;
in Sheol who will give you praise?

6 I am weary with my moaning;
every night I flood my bed with tears;
I drench my couch with my weeping.
7 My eye wastes away because of grief;
it grows weak because of all my foes.


sam - i wonder how many people who both know the Lord and those who do not yet know the Spirit is working in them...the Lord is drawing them to Christ....how many suffer this way, alone....flooding their beds with tears.

then have to clean it up and hide it to look good for their sinless fellows at church?

too afraid to say they are suffering...even from confessed sin. < they don't believe they are forgiven!
because no one tells them:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[schoolofyoungprophet]

Psalm 6
O LORD, rebuke me not in your anger,
nor discipline me in your wrath.
2 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am languishing;
heal me, O LORD, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled.
But you, O LORD—how long?

4 Turn, O LORD, deliver my life;
save me for the sake of your steadfast love.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of you;
in Sheol who will give you praise?

6 I am weary with my moaning;
every night I flood my bed with tears;
I drench my couch with my weeping.
7 My eye wastes away because of grief;
it grows weak because of all my foes.


sam - i wonder how many people who both know the Lord and those who do not yet know the Spirit is working in them...the Lord is drawing them to Christ....how many suffer this way, alone....flooding their beds with tears.

then have to clean it up and hide it to look good for their sinless fellows at church?

too afraid to say they are suffering...even from confessed sin. < they don't believe they are forgiven!
because no one tells them:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That's very true zone.
God bless

 

[homwardbound]

The same question I asked God:

How do we die with Christ? (end)

In essence, how do we die to the Law when the Law is still spoken to us by the Spirit?

The law is stillspoken to you by the Holy Ghost but the Spirit of error this world has goteveryone so focused on sin tostop it that really what we end updoing is sinning more and then less proud over and then shameful.
Paul sais it well in Romans 7 everytime I wish to do good i do what? I seve God with the inner man but i serve the law of sin and death with my flesh. Who will save mefrom this Jesus Christ my savior my Lord
If one wants to stop the sin issue ones conscience would need to be purged from sin,nowthe onlyonethat can do this is God through you asking to see this. If you arenot thinkoing aobut sin in anyway, shape or form wold you sin? No you would not nor would you be awre of if you did or not. Now when ones conscience is purged from sin then they are so busy with praising Father and thanking Father being in the Spirit of Father constant. this is what the Holy Ghost is trying to tell us all how to stop and start you stop by starting the new life in Christ and staying focused on what God has done for you taken all sin out of the way through his Son and made you Holy the day you first believed,the sooner one responds to this the sooner one's conscience is purged from all sin thanks to Father and Son and Holy Ghost that is the one that teaches you all truth the truth that sets one free

 

[homwardbound]

Many will speak of being set free from the curse of the law yet what is neglected it being set free from the bondage of sin itself.

The wages of sin is death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The curse of the law is that the law brings death.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Yet it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from this law of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

When one walks in the Spirit they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

The Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is simply walking in the Spirit abiding in Christ. Sin does not have dominion over a Christian because they are not under the letter of the law (letter kills).

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Not being under the letter of the law is the liberty which Jesus Christ gives those who abide in Him. Yet this liberty is not a liberty to yield to the flesh.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

It is the liberty to love one another apart from the letter of the law. In other words instead of being subject to the rules and regulations of law one is subject to their own conscience as they walk by a faith which works by love.

This is why Paul would teach this...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

There are two ways to walk. One way is to walk carnally yielding to the passions and desires of the flesh while the other way is to walk in accordance with the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body. This is why there is no such thing as a Christian who is still in bondage to the lusts of their flesh. There is no such thing as a Christian pornography addict or a Christian drunkard. The wretch of Romans 7 is not the Christian walk because the wretch is "carnal and sold under sin." The wretch even cries out "who shall deliver me from this body of death."

Deliverance from the body of death is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation and this is where the believer dies with Christ. This is where the body of sin is done away with once and for all. This is where the old man is crucified. This is where the passions and desires of the flesh are crucified once and for all. This is where the grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies. This is where one loses their life in order that they may find it.

If the above does not happen then the professing believer is still double-minded and they are attempting to serve two masters. Jesus taught that the eye must be single in order for the body to be full of light.

When God regenerates a believer who has indeed died with Christ the rebirth is complete. That believer is not in bondage to sin anymore nor are they carnally minded. Instead they have been born from above and are now in a teachable position ready to yield to God. Now they can be made holy as they grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. This is the time that a Christian is to add to their faith as they remain steadfast in endurance, lest they fall back into their old ways and the old man revives.

Often the fallacy of "perfectionism" is brought up as a charge against those who preach the true crucifixion of the flesh. A new believer IS NOT perfect but nor are they in rebellion.

This following scripture written by Peter is key...

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

If an individual has not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust then they have not truly repented and have not been born again.

When Peter spoke of being "born again" he stated this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Those who are born again have purified their souls in that they obeyed the truth through the Spirit. The rebellion in a Christian has ceased because rebellion is rooted in iniquity or a defiled heart. A pure heart has been purged of iniquity.

The root issue of sin has been dealt with in a true believer. This is why it is so important to examine ourselves and make sure we are indeed in the faith. If we are engaged in any willful sin in our lives we are deceiving ourselves if we think we are born again.

If anyone who is reading this and is having an issue with ongoing willful sin you must seek that godly sorrow which will work a genuine repentance. It is through being broken on the rock of Christ that the motivation to yield to God will be wrought. God empowers those who go through this experience. It is not our power by which we walk in the light, it is by God's power working through us. All we do is yield from the heart. Hence it is obedience from the heart that sets us free from sin (Rom 6:17).

There are many wolves in the church system today won't teach the above because it contradicts their doctrine. They truly believe that there is salvation IN sin. In other words they truly believe that you can be addicted and engaged in the carnal sins of the flesh and be saved at the same time. It is a myth.

Jesus came to rescue "whoseover will" from the corrupting influence of sin. Jesus did not come provide a provisional reconciliation to God whilst leaving people still enslaved. When Jesus said you can be "free indeed" that is EXACTLY what He meant.

There is freedom in Christ. Freedom from condemnation and corruption via the blood and the Spirit.

All those that do believe will come to the conclusion of what you have said here skinski7 good for you to see thistruth being in him
Very well put it is a process to come to understand, and God the Father will not leave us nor forsake God the Holy Ghost will carry on the good work that Christ began in us and Father will take it to completion. so the sooner we all give up with ourselves and others trying to get ourselves to stop sin and others as well this will be the sooner we can see the escape from the sin that so easily besets us. So how does one die to the flesh here and now? by Romans 6:11 Reckon thyself to be dead to sin, believe it through the finished work of Christ where all sin has been taken away from Father's vantage and rejoice in this having your conscience purged from sin moving on into the new life where you are freed from this world and its traps

 

[mark54]

All those that do believe will come to the conclusion of what you have said here skinski7 good for you to see thistruth being in him
Very well put it is a process to come to understand, and God the Father will not leave us nor forsake God the Holy Ghost will carry on the good work that Christ began in us and Father will take it to completion. so the sooner we all give up with ourselves and others trying to get ourselves to stop sin and others as well this will be the sooner we can see the escape from the sin that so easily besets us. So how does one die to the flesh here and now? by Romans 6:11 Reckon thyself to be dead to sin, believe it through the finished work of Christ where all sin has been taken away from Father's vantage and rejoice in this having your conscience purged from sin moving on into the new life where you are freed from this world and its traps

Homewardbound
Can I ask you? Why do you think the 'Romans7 wretch' as Skinski put it came to be as he was?

 

[homwardbound]

I'm not going to say it's impossible walk perfect after salvation, because in 1 John it says "if" we sin we have an advocate with the father. But i will say you're wrong by saying a Christian won't sin, because if a Christian sins they do have an advocate. Peter denied Christ three times, was he not saved. Thomas had to put his fingers in Jesus' wounds to believe... Was he not saved? Sin is something that Christians don't practice accidents happened, and the flesh is on the rise at times. I'm not saying go on and sin after you're saved, but imitate Christ.

The ones that still sin on occassion and just sin yet whenever they do have a godly sorrow and begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion, yes from God's vantage point the ones that believe are saved from God the Father's vantage point, now though God is the one that carries on the good work God began in you the one that believes and is sorrowful to God about their sin issues. The Holy Ghost that lives in you from the foirst day of belief is there to teach you truth, and the world is here to keep you sinning and taking advantage of the grace of God. You decide does God want you to continue to hurt yourself and others? No is right so how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin? Go to God andask God to purge your conscience from sin thereofre once you are purged through the cross where all sin has been taken away you get a new life in the Spirit of God and taught to stay in the Spirit at all times where no sin can ever enter you are now dead to sin and alive in Christ. it is a process my brothers and one heck of a fight, just endure forget waht is behind and move on towards the mark your high calling in Christ Jesus

 

[zone]

The ones that still sin on occassion and just sin yet whenever they do have a godly sorrow and begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion, yes from God's vantage point the ones that believe are saved from God the Father's vantage point, now though God is the one that carries on the good work God began in you the one that believes and is sorrowful to God about their sin issues. The Holy Ghost that lives in you from the foirst day of belief is there to teach you truth, and the world is here to keep you sinning and taking advantage of the grace of God. You decide does God want you to continue to hurt yourself and others? No is right so how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin? Go to God andask God to purge your conscience from sin thereofre once you are purged through the cross where all sin has been taken away you get a new life in the Spirit of God and taught to stay in the Spirit at all times where no sin can ever enter you are now dead to sin and alive in Christ. it is a process my brothers and one heck of a fight, just endure forget waht is behind and move on towards the mark your high calling in Christ Jesus

homwardbound, i hope you continue in this understanding and not be drawn back by the continual hammering of the likes of some here who are on incessantly about sin (always others).

i hope you are able to keep discerning that the struggle and obsession remains (and intensifies) that way as long as we are obsessing about sin and the Law. we have to move away from serving sin by using the same flesh body to turn and actually serve God and neighbor. sitting still hoping to avoid sin and talking about being sinless is a sham.

it's a disaster waiting to happen. the mind is breeding a deadly delusion.

i know you know it....be careful to take this grace with you at all times and extend it to people who are in Romans 7.
if we don't do this, we are going to be responsible for their stunted growth, since turning back to the Law takes people further from Grace and the Person of Christ.

you can decide for yourself if they end up eventually severed from Christ or not.

the fruit the branches connected to Vine bear are the fruits of the Spirit.
not the fruit of dead works and unbelief toward God.

abiding in Christ is abiding in His words and Grace. looking to His Person.
not to self.

rebuke these people who would turn the Romans 7 man who is in crisis back to the Law.

love zone.

 

[homwardbound]

No it is not twisting Skinski. But obviously you are desperate to say it is

I did not make up myself the definition of sin. John tells us plainly what that definition is
And this is why your Gospel is so dangerous
You cannot say sin must cease in order for a person to be saved/accepted by God, without in reality saying the law must be upheld/obeyed in order for a person to be accepted by God
Try and evade that if you wsh but it is the truth
As for the verses you put forth
Once again, you need to understand the new covenant. If a person accepted Christ as their saviour and wilfully without caring about it sinned to their hearts content, no they were never saved in the first place
But, once again, Heb 10:16&17

They are desperate to see victory over the sin by faith in Christ, not according to law/a righteousness of their own, for as Paul said that must fail(Gal2:16&17)

Marc under the salvation that you are saved is God working in you to be dead to sin now and forever?Are you growing in the grace that he has given you? Is God that lives in you perfecting your faith (belief) in him and finding yourself giving up sin, to the point that you will sin no more being in him constant in the Spirit where there can not ever be any sin since God through Christ condemned all sin to the Flesh, are you dead reckoning yourself dead to sin daily? Are you trying to give up sin? or are you trusting God to do this in your place being in agreement with God that God can do this, and noone else can. Please as you are growiung and are saved by God through your belief, now come to seeing this from God ask for the purging of your conscience from sin, and all others here that believe God. Once one has their conscience purged from sin sin no longer is an issue for it has been put to death
I think you are and Skinski is as well I think you both are saved, Skinski seems to have come to the end of the energy of his own flesh and died to sin in this process and now has stated that is when one is born again, that I do not believe for God is faithful and will carry on the good work God began in each and every one that believes. Therefore each and everyone that believes will by the operation of God come to perfection the meat of the word, Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.
Does God desire for us to be perfect as he is perfect? How does this happen since no one of the flesh can ever be perfect and just as well all sin beiing condemned to the Flesh? By reckoning thyself dead to sin (flesh) while still alive, but now in the Spirit perfect in the sight of God one praising God being pre-occupied in God the old self stays crucified with Christ back at the cross where all sin has been dealt with, and the new you the hidden man of the heart that serves God perfectly. This is what Skoinski might be trying to say
Thanks marc for being you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Marc under the salvation that you are saved is God working in you to be dead to sin now and forever?Are you growing in the grace that he has given you? Is God that lives in you perfecting your faith (belief) in him and finding yourself giving up sin, to the point that you will sin no more being in him constant in the Spirit where there can not ever be any sin since God through Christ condemned all sin to the Flesh, are you dead reckoning yourself dead to sin daily? Are you trying to give up sin? or are you trusting God to do this in your place being in agreement with God that God can do this, and noone else can. Please as you are growiung and are saved by God through your belief, now come to seeing this from God ask for the purging of your conscience from sin, and all others here that believe God. Once one has their conscience purged from sin sin no longer is an issue for it has been put to death
I think you are and Skinski is as well I think you both are saved, Skinski seems to have come to the end of the energy of his own flesh and died to sin in this process and now has stated that is when one is born again, that I do not believe for God is faithful and will carry on the good work God began in each and every one that believes. Therefore each and everyone that believes will by the operation of God come to perfection the meat of the word, Hebrews 6:1-3
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3[/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.
Does God desire for us to be perfect as he is perfect? How does this happen since no one of the flesh can ever be perfect and just as well all sin beiing condemned to the Flesh? By reckoning thyself dead to sin (flesh) while still alive, but now in the Spirit perfect in the sight of God one praising God being pre-occupied in God the old self stays crucified with Christ back at the cross where all sin has been dealt with, and the new you the hidden man of the heart that serves God perfectly. This is what Skoinski might be trying to say
Thanks marc for being you

if you read skinski's posts. He is not trying to say this at all. He is of the belief once your saved, you can't sin period. This is not found in scripture anywhere!

 

[mark54]

Marc under the salvation that you are saved is God working in you to be dead to sin now and forever?Are you growing in the grace that he has given you? Is God that lives in you perfecting your faith (belief) in him and finding yourself giving up sin, to the point that you will sin no more being in him constant in the Spirit where there can not ever be any sin since God through Christ condemned all sin to the Flesh, are you dead reckoning yourself dead to sin daily? Are you trying to give up sin? or are you trusting God to do this in your place being in agreement with God that God can do this, and noone else can. Please as you are growiung and are saved by God through your belief, now come to seeing this from God ask for the purging of your conscience from sin, and all others here that believe God. Once one has their conscience purged from sin sin no longer is an issue for it has been put to death
I

Homeward
We know that sin is transgression of the law
Bearing that in mind, and what you have written, has sin been put to death in your life, and is it no longer an issue?

 

[mark54]

if you read skinski's posts. He is not trying to say this at all. He is of the belief once your saved, you can't sin period. This is not found in scripture anywhere!

From my conversations with Skinski, he believes all sin must cease before God will accept you/you can have rightstanding with God/you can receive salvation/be a Christian.

 

[homwardbound]

Sir, according to your above statements Christians will get to Heaven regardless of obeying God therefore obedience is disconnected from faith; it is merely optional. You believe Christians can live in partial obedience to God which is essentially walking on the broad and narrow way simultaneously, indulging in worldly pleasures once in a while whilst remaining justified just as Noah could have jumped out of the ark occasionally and not drown. These doctrines you have bought into essentially encourage an extra form of believers, carnal ones who share the same fate as faithful believers - Heaven. That is a lie from Satan. One is either on the broad way to destruction or narrow way to life, there is no middle ground. These doctrines not only pose as stumbling blocks to spiritual growth, they coddle carnal Christians by giving them false assurance of salvation when in reality they are on the road to damnation. What a pity!

The foolish virgins probably believed they were eternally secured and could not lose their salvation that's why they didn't take extra oil for their lamps, but what was the result? "I know you not". Similarly, multitude of Christians who think they could live however they wish and still inherit the kingdom will be greatly disappointed to hear "I know you not" on Judgment day.

I believe in a greater grace that enables us to deny ungodliness in this present world, not some weak grace that simply condones willful ongoing disobedience. Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;[not in the future world to come]
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

God’s call to obedience and righteous living is not impossible because His abundant grace and Spirit enables us. With God all things are possible.
1 Peter 1:14-16
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written,Be ye holy; for I am holy. This is addressing believers: Heb 12:14-15
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Sin can defile a believer and cause spiritual death but you say it cannot.

All these admonitions would not be in the scriptures if believers can live however they like and still enter Heaven.

But brother this can not be done in and of the flesh, it is only a gift from God to be able to walk circumspectly for when one learns from God this enablement to walk perfectly it is from God and by God that this occurs and this is from Fatih (belief) in God that does not quit for when one receives that God just love them, that is when one truly has changes that are real from God. I have seen God's faithfulness and my failures over a lifetime that sometimes I think that I am so old that I was a servant at the last supper. Anyway my brother it starts with believing and continues in believing for one to have growth in the wisdom of this miraclous salvation where while we yet sinners Christ died for us, a free gift, now go and take advantage of this GOD FORBID!!!!!. Nope rather appreciate this and then seek truth from God the Holy Ghost that came and resided in you the hidden man of your heart and learn from the Holy Ghost how to say no to unrighteousness for this is the only way to know is from God

 

[Skinski7]

The ones that still sin on occassion and just sin yet whenever they do have a godly sorrow and begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion, yes from God's vantage point the ones that believe are saved from God the Father's vantage point, now though God is the one that carries on the good work God began in you the one that believes and is sorrowful to God about their sin issues. The Holy Ghost that lives in you from the foirst day of belief is there to teach you truth, and the world is here to keep you sinning and taking advantage of the grace of God. You decide does God want you to continue to hurt yourself and others? No is right so how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin? Go to God andask God to purge your conscience from sin thereofre once you are purged through the cross where all sin has been taken away you get a new life in the Spirit of God and taught to stay in the Spirit at all times where no sin can ever enter you are now dead to sin and alive in Christ. it is a process my brothers and one heck of a fight, just endure forget waht is behind and move on towards the mark your high calling in Christ Jesus

While that may sound good and while it may offer comfort to those who are still engaged in willful known sin it is simply not Biblical.

Paul wrote that it is...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Yet you are saying that it is salvation worketh godly sorrow unto repentance.


Did Paul have the attitude that, "The ones that still sin on occassion and just sin yet whenever they do have a godly sorrow and begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion, yes from God's vantage point the ones that believe are saved from God the Father's vantage point."

No he did not. Paul said this...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

It appears you are trying to deceive people with vain words by teaching that "one is saved from God's perspective" while one "still engages in willful known sin?"

Whether you are doing this intentionally or not is not the issue. The fact is that you are offering people "assurance of salvation" whilst they "still yield unto sin."

You say, "No is right so how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin?"

Paul tells us...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Those are not my words but Paul's. Do you believe them?

Paul plainly states that if you "yield to sin" you are a "slave of sin." You asked "how does one come to the truth that sets them free from sin?"

One comes to the "knowledge of the truth" by simply opening one's ears to the light of God wherever it may be found, whether through the light of conscience, a preacher, the Bible for it is the Holy Spirit that is at work in the world which convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Yes it is true that we can cry out to God to "ask God to purge your conscience from sin thereofre once you are purged through the cross." Yet do you really know that that means? I don't think you do.

In verse 17 of Romans 6 Paul speaks of "obedience from the heart to the doctrine delivered" as the method by which one is "set free." If one asks God for deliverance but refuses to do what God tells one to do then there will be no deliverance.

God is the author of the salvation of those whom obey Him. If you don't obey then God will not author your salvation because obedience is a necessary requirement.

What is this "doctrine once delivered" which Paul speaks of in verse 17? It is this...

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

Whosoever sins and does not "abide in that doctrine" does not have God.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Can one be engaged in willful known sin and be abiding in the doctrine of Christ? Paul lays that to rest right here...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


Is what you are teaching in agreement with the Bible? No! You are offering assurance of salvation whilst someone is still engaged actively in known sin, as long as they "believe." Yet you don't understand that those who truly "believe" also "yield to the measure of light they have been given." Again God is the author of salvation of those whom obey Him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It is through obedience to the doctrine once delivered that one is set free from sin.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Didn't Paul teach that we are to "awake to righteousness and sin not"?

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

It is through the "knowledge of God" that we have all things that pertain to life and ungodliness by which we have the great and previous promises of God whereby we can partake in the divine nature HAVING ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Any person who is letting themselves be drawn away by the lusts of their flesh and is yielding to temptation and sinning is still a slave of sin and is not saved. That is what the Bible teaches...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

There are two roads. Obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

It is great error to offer those on the road of "sin unto death" assurance of "begin their belief seeking out truth God will carry it on to completion" because the REBELLION HAD TO CEASE. If the rebellion has not ceased then they NEVER REPENTED.

Again it is not "salvation unto godly sorrow working repentance" as you have CLEARLY implied. It is godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation.

Every single statement I have made is right from the Bible and is in perfect harmony with the context.

The issue is this...

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

One has to come to the light and let their deeds be reproved then one must WALK in the light and ONLY THEN will the blood cleanse one from all sin whic is the TRUE CONTEXT of 1Joh 1:8-10.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hence this...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Eternal life is given to those who patiently continue in doing good for they have truly repented and forsaken their sin. While those who refuse to obey the truth but rather continue to yield to unrighteousness they receive wrath.

Believe the Bible not the great swelling words of men which may "sound good" but are in reality nothing more than "candy coated poison."

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

[Ariel82]

www.standingthegap.org

why do you always quote this website?

I hope and pray one day you will be able to read the Bible and converse on topics without always cutting and pasting from that site. its full of lies and anger and bitterness. False acussations and twisting of sound doctrine.

Do you even know the difference between sinless and blameless?

no one in the bible is found sinless except JESUS. everyone else is said to be blameless because they followed the OT laws concerning repentance and sacrifice whenever they sinned.

However Jesus has come to mediate a NEW Covenant where God's laws are written in our hearts and minds and we are to live our lives as LIVING epstiles of love to the world from God.

God pours clean water into us and we speak and give it to the world. however if our words are full of bitterness, hatred and condemnation then God's pure water is tainted by our fleshy deliverance. Sometimes we should spend more time cleaning ourselves before trying to share with others.

Something to think about:

James 3
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.See how great a forest a little fire kindles! [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. [SUP]9 [/SUP]With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.[SUP][b]

[/SUP]

 

[Skinski7]

if you read skinski's posts. He is not trying to say this at all. He is of the belief once your saved, you can't sin period. This is not found in scripture anywhere!

No, a Christian can sin because sin is a choice. I never said you cannot sin. I do say you cannot willfully be engaged in ongoing sin and not surely die. The rebellion has to cease otherwise perdition awaits.

I state that if you are engaged in willful sin and do not forsake it you will perish. Thus godly sorrow worketh a repentance whereby the REBELLION CEASES and thus God delivers one from the BONDAGE OF SIN and purges and purifies the heart by the blood of Jesus. No person is going to sin their way into the kingdom.

We either die with Christ whereby the old man is crucified and the body of sin is done away with by which we no longer serve to sin. In other words we yield to the doctrine delvered us and becomes a doer of the word.

Or...

We refuse to yield to God and continue to walk our own way in bondage to the lusts of the flesh.

One way is the road to life while the other way is the road to death.

God gives us everything we need in order to walk the road of life. Yet we have to make the choice as to whether we want to or not. Very few will choose to walk it because it means they have to give things they like up.

 

[homwardbound]

I have seen people who live in sin,and they are alright with it and say I am weak u know,there is no breaking of heart,no longing for repentance to such I say u need to be saved.
However,for instance I have a friend who struggles with same sex attraction but is fighting it,counting his emotion as loss,carry his cross to follow Christ.
Another mate who struggled with lying,however he said it broke his heart everytime he lied,he overcame such besetting sin by crying out to God all night.
We are to fight sin,grow more n more in holiness,
But when a person claims to be perfect,n he sins no more is a lier.
Its only by his merits we r counted right before him.

Soyou do not think that God wants to take you into his arms making you perfect and not by your or my or anyones own accord by his by what God has already done, you basking in his presence being forever busy in him going and doing as he planned for every believers life to walk in LOVE (GOD'S) now test thyself and read 1Cor. 13 and see if you are in God's love and if not ask God for you to receive this love that is unconditional and be ye perfect in the sight of God the Father not from self effort ever from God as a free gift to you, I tell you as Christ said it as he gave up the Ghost he yelled IT IS FINISHED and a new covenant took place, your sins and lawless acts are behind his back never to see again. Therefore trust God to remove all filth from you by God's doing it not you, and God will perform this in you, and you will know that it is not you that has done this.
Love homwardbound

 

[Ariel82]

learn from the Holy Ghost how to say no to unrighteousness for this is the only way to know is from God

homewordbound, I'll keep your brother in my prayers. it is wonderful to hear stories of people coming to Christ.

Skinski, your rant is unneccesary in that Homewardbound tells people to OBEY God by learning from the Holy Ghost to say NO to unrighteousness.

 

[Skinski7]

From my conversations with Skinski, he believes all sin must cease before God will accept you/you can have rightstanding with God/you can receive salvation/be a Christian.

The rebellion to God must cease in repentance. It looks like you are trying to lump "all sin" in the sense of non-presumptuous sin in with willful carnality. There is a difference.

Many don't believe this...

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[zone]

Does God desire for us to be perfect as he is perfect? How does this happen since no one of the flesh can ever be perfect and just as well all sin beiing condemned to the Flesh? By reckoning thyself dead to sin (flesh) while still alive, but now in the Spirit perfect in the sight of God one praising God being pre-occupied in God the old self stays crucified with Christ back at the cross where all sin has been dealt with, and the new you the hidden man of the heart that serves God perfectly. This is what Skoinski might be trying to say

oh wow.
if you keep listening to certain people, you're going to end up completely deluded and lose the grace you started with.
i have no idea why these perfectionism heresies are permitted for so long.

stop talking about Jesus Christ and just go back to Moses.
if you think you are EVER serving God perfectly, it's already over for you.

what is Christ NOW?
an example from the past?

everyone who keeps perpetuating this tinkering with the word PERFECT is teetering on eating the very same fruit Adam ate and DIED from.

find out what perfect means for a SAVED MAN and then compare it to THE PERFECT GOD.
can we please get serious?

 

[Skinski7]

homewordbound, I'll keep your brother in my prayers. it is wonderful to hear stories of people coming to Christ.

Skinski, your rant is unneccesary in that Homewardbound tells people to OBEY God by learning from the Holy Ghost to say NO to unrighteousness.

You just IGNORE my "rant" and you also IGNORE that Homewardbound plainly implied that there is salvation in sin. It is tragic that you see nothing wrong with the idea that "salvation works godly sorrow unto repentance" which is what he clearly implied.

Obviously what I wrote was not meant for your eyes.