When does the rapture occur?

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Man,I have laughed so hard all day reading your posts its like being addicted or something and my wife fears my china man looking eyes and permanent grin are gonna ruin our sttanding in the neighborhood
I am not laughing popeye, the mountains are kingdoms; and that is exactly the way Dr. John MacArthur has been teaching it since the late 70's. And where do we get that teaching? All you have to do is really read Revelation:

Revelation 17:9-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Here is the mind with wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They are also seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain for a little while.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] The beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth ⌊king⌋, yet he belongs to the seven and is going to destruction.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The 10 horns you saw are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they will receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] These will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will conquer them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings. Those with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Horns also represent kingdoms in Biblical Prophecy, and of the 10 horned beast, 3 of those horns are to be torn up by their roots. Now what is that? You are old enough to know, you saw it happen on the news to one country back in 1990. East Germany was torn up by it's roots. So with three horns torn up by their roots, how many remain. Correct SEVEN, the same SEVEN as the Mountains represent. The prophecy is not about ROME, it is about the European Union, which is the revival of the Roman Empire. I know there are more than ten now, but when it comes to erasing their borders and turning over complete control to a Dictator, the rest will bail out. In case you have not noticed, the European Union meets in Brussels, NOT ROME.

Whoever started that falsehood that the seven mountains were the seven hills of Rome, and therefore it was the Catholic Church it was talking about; was a denominational bigot, and he pedaled that lie all over, and people to lazy to check out his teachings, and actually read Revelation for themselves, have been swallowing that lie, hook line and sinker ever since.

The seven mountains are a seven nation confederacy in it's final form (Rev. 17:9-10), that give control of their nations over to a Dictator, who is actually the Antichrist. (Rev. 17:13)


Grace to You

https://ihcc.org/Resources/GilRughMessages#
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I doubt it. The post-tribbers would create a new doctrine, warning of believing those lying eyes, and proven by one word in scripture, if you take careful note of definition #4 in Strong's, and dismiss the rest of the Bible, of course.
All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.

Do that and I'll shut up. Do it not, then you're the one who made up a doctrine.:D
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,985
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All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.

Do that and I'll shut up. Do it not, then you're the one who made up a doctrine.:D
1. I already shown you the verses, and you rejected them.

2. I have already explained that it is NOT a Second Coming until His feet land on the Mount of Olives and split it in two. Appearing in the Air, does not count as a Coming.

3. The body of flesh and blood are changed to an immortal body, in the twinkling of an eye on the way up to meet Him in the air.

. . . . . 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the third heaven 14 years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, God knows.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I know that this man—whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, God knows
[SUP]4 [/SUP] was caught up into paradise. He heard inexpressible words, which a man is not allowed to speak.

. . . . . Revelation 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

. . . . . Revelation 11:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.

4. Elders, is a position of authority in the Church, and that TITLE was not in Judaism, but it was a political position in each City in Israel.

. . . . . Revelation 7:13-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter them:
 
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GaryA

Guest
The Luke 21 account deals with the temple. Note that they are at the temple area the whole time starting in Luke 20:1. Notice that when the topic of the temple came up that the question posed in Luke 21 was different than the Mat and Mark accounts. There was no mention of the end times.
Look at the "highlighted" parts of the following passages:

Matthew 24:

[SUP]15[/SUP] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: ) [SUP]16[/SUP]
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [SUP]17[/SUP] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18[/SUP] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19[/SUP] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mark 13:

[SUP]14[/SUP] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)
then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: [SUP]15[/SUP] And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]16[/SUP] And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. [SUP]17[/SUP] But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Luke 21:

[SUP]20[/SUP] And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [SUP]21[/SUP]
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [SUP]22[/SUP] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23[/SUP] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Is there no significance here to the likelihood that three different accounts of the same discourse would be talking about the same thing?


Thus, Luke is talking about the Temple of AD 70 events where Matthew and Mark and discussing the end times. So the lesson to learn is that both eras will be similar.
Matthew and Mark are not discussing anything. They, along with Luke, wrote three different accounts of the same discourse! Jesus was "discussing" --- the other three were "recording"... ( Please understand the context - I am trying to make a point here... )

It is true that certain "small details" were recorded differently in the three accounts -- some details even left out of one or more accounts. But there is one thing that is inescapable -- there was only ONE discourse ( Jesus ) - and three accounts ( Matthew, Mark, and Luke ) of the same discourse.

I very seriously doubt that Jesus got to the 'middle' of the discourse -- and said:

"Okay - Matthew and Mark, I want the two of you to listen really well to this first part [ of the 'middle' part of the whole discourse ] ( because I will be talking about the 'early' event ) - and Luke, I want you to listen really well to this last part [ of the 'middle' part of the whole discourse ] ( because I will be talking about the 'later' event )... Now, Matthew and Mark, I do not want you to record anything about Luke's part -- and Luke, I don't want you to record anything about Matthew's or Mark's part..."

:rolleyes:

:)
 
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charlesNY

Junior Member
Jan 2, 2014
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Thinking is one thing, backing it up with scripture is another. I would also like for someone to present scripture to me that supports a Pretrib rapture.
 
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GaryA

Guest
"Okay - Matthew and Mark, I want the two of you to listen really well to this first part [ of the 'middle' part of the whole discourse ] ( because I will be talking about the 'early' event ) - and Luke, I want you to listen really well to this last part [ of the 'middle' part of the whole discourse ] ( because I will be talking about the 'later' event )... Now, Matthew and Mark, I do not want you to record anything about Luke's part -- and Luke, I don't want you to record anything about Matthew's or Mark's part..."
I really meant for the 'early' part to be matched with Luke and the 'later' part to be matched with Matthew and Mark -- just to fit PlainWord's scenario...

:)
 
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popeye

Guest
All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.
1) we do not believe he returns to earth pretrib. he meets us in the air pretrib
2) see no 1
3)2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

rev 19;6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

to her (the church in heaven with Jesus).....(pre 2nd coming)was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

4) 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
 
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popeye

Guest
Thinking is one thing, backing it up with scripture is another. I would also like for someone to present scripture to me that supports a Pretrib rapture.
Postrib is impossible. the ac kills every born again humanoid w/o the mark.

Who/what is alive postrib for this imaginary postrib rapture?
 
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GaryA

Guest
Appearing in the Air, does not count as a Coming.
This is the part that I have always considered to be the most ridiculous part of the whole pre-trib rapture teaching...

( And, I can say this with both love and sincerity --- I was taught this stuff when I was growing up --- however, I no longer believe it. And, I do not think I ever believed this particular part of it... )

If Jesus comes back - but His feet do not touch the ground - did He come back...?

What if His feet touch the ground "a little later on" ( after the rapture ) -- did He come back...???

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
This is the part that I have always considered to be the most ridiculous part of the whole pre-trib rapture teaching...

( And, I can say this with both love and sincerity --- I was taught this stuff when I was growing up --- however, I no longer believe it. And, I do not think I ever believed this particular part of it... )

If Jesus comes back - but His feet do not touch the ground - did He come back...?

What if His feet touch the ground "a little later on" ( after the rapture ) -- did He come back...???

:)
Why is it that people think [ whether His feet touch the ground or not ] determines whether He "came back" or not?

If He "came back" and hovered 6 inches above the ground - but did not touch the ground - did He "come back"...???

If He "came back" and hovered 6 miles above the ground - did He "come back"...???

In the "big picture" of:

~ He came ( first coming )

~ He left ( to go to the Father )

~ He is coming back ( second coming )

Don't you realize that -- the next time He "comes back" ( ANYTHING that constitutes "coming back" -- "leaving heaven and coming back" ) -- it is considered to be His second coming...???

If He comes back and "just barely" enters the Earth's atmosphere -- He STILL came back. And, it would be considered His second coming.

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.
1) we do not believe he returns to earth pretrib. he meets us in the air pretrib { no biblical passage here -- just "what I believe" }
2) see no 1
{ see no 1 } 3)2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
{ Jesus will be on Earth. If you are with Him, you will not be in [ the third ] heaven }29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. { possibly - kingdom on Earth ? }

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. { on Earth }
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

rev 19;6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

to her (the church in heaven with Jesus).....(pre 2nd coming
{ So - the martyred Tribulation saints are not allowed to be part of the bride ???????????? } )was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

4) 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
popeye - you do not realize this yet -- but, none of this actually "answers" any of the four things in the first quote bubble above. You do not realize it yet -- but, you are starting with the "conclusion" and working "backwards" --- "you can't do that - it doesn't work" --- you cannot use the conclusion ( that you are trying to "arrive at" ) as the premise for the proof of that conclusion.

If you are going to understand what the Bible actually says on [ any particular subject matter ], you must give up whatever "assumptions" are built-in to what you were taught...

:)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,985
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Thinking is one thing, backing it up with scripture is another. I would also like for someone to present scripture to me that supports a Pretrib rapture.


First of all you have to understand why the LORD called HIMSELF the BRIDEGROOM. The answer is in the FACT that the Bride of Christ is the ASSEMBLY that He has ALWAYS BEEN BUILDING. If you look at Young's Literal Translation, you will find out that the Word CHURCH, is not in the original GREEK. It really is ASSEMBLY, therefore the same promises of building His Assembly is an ongoing process that applies to both OT Saints and NT Saints.

Mark 2:19-20 (YLT)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And Jesus said to them, `Are the sons of the bride-chamber able, while the bridegroom is with them, to fast? so long time as they have the bridegroom with them they are not able to fast;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] but days shall come when the bridegroom may be taken from them, and then they shall fast--in those days.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

Jeremiah 2:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: "'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown.

Isaiah 62:5 (YLT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For a young man doth marry a virgin, Thy Builders do marry thee, With the joy of a bridegroom over a bride, Rejoice over thee doth thy God.

Matthew 25:1-13 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "But at midnight there was a shout,
'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
[SUP]10 [/SUP] "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "
Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

The only way that COMMAND to BE ON THE ALERT has any significance from when HE said it until NOW, is it means HE will come to carry HIS Bride to the New Dwelling place, that a Jewish Bridegroom always built in the His Father's house specifically for the WEDDING; before any of the events that are prophesied to happen after the first three chapters of Revelation.

Since I have posted numerous responses to others asking the same questions in the past, on three different websites, I will copy paste one of my responses from about three or four years ago.

t<><
Is the Calling Out of the Bride (or Rapture) going to come first or is it the Second Coming?

The rapture (which is the Calling Out of the Bride the Church to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in the New Dwelling Place that HE has prepared for us), has to happen before the Second Coming. The Second Coming is when HE reclaims the earth, slaying all unbelievers with the sword of HIS mouth; and then sets up HIS Thousand Year Kingdom, ruling from the Throne of David. That event happens so slowly that the Armies of the World have time to move their troops to Valley of Megiddo, also know as Armagedon, before Christ actually sets foot on earth at the Mt. of Olives, Zech 14:3-4, Rev. 16:12-16, & Rev. 19:1-21. While in comparison, the Calling Out of the Bride happens so fast that it is compared to lightning flashing from the east to the west, plus at that time Christ does not set foot on earth, He only APPEARS in the air in the clouds.

Matthew 24:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Titus 2:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The main reason the Calling Out of the Bride has to come first is in this Verse:

Mark 13:32 (NKJV)
32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

That cannot be talking about The Second Coming when HE comes as KING of Kings; but rather when HE appears in the clouds as Our Bridegroom to Call out HIS Bride to go to HIS and Her Wedding; because the Days of the Antichrist’s reign are numbered and he will reign for 3 and a half years peacefully, followed by 3 and a half years of being the most blood thirsty Dictator that has ever lived.

The understanding of why the Calling out of the Bride the Church has to happen first is found in understanding the Jewish Wedding Traditions at the time of Christ. Most of the info that I have on the Jewish Wedding Traditions, comes from the late Dr. Zola Levitt. I pray this will be helpful:

False teachers frequently try to pick the day of the Second Coming or even the Judgment Day, and some even say the Church must go the Tribulation. Therefore they either skip entirely the 7 year reign of Antichrist or falsely claim we go through it too; and some even deny the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus Christ. I totally believe in both, and I believe the Lord literally meant it when he said:

1 Thess 5:9 (KJV)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I believe the Wrath He is referring to is:

Rev 6:15-17 (NKJV)
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

I also believe HE literally meant it when HE said:

Rev 3:10 (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I also believe that because the "hour of trial" is coming upon the whole earth and those who dwell on the earth; then our "Ark" of safety is a place off this earth. I believe that place of safety off this earth is in Heaven in the New City Jerusalem that is described in Rev. Chapter 21. WHY is He taking us there?:

Rev 21:9 (NKJV)
. . . "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."

NOTE: She is in her new dwelling place in heaven.

Rev 19:9 (NKJV)
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

Eph 5:23 (NKJV)
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

The Marriage Supper is always at the very end of the 7 day Wedding Ceremony.
So what happens at the very beginning of the 7 day Wedding Ceremony?

Reference above: Matt 25:1-13

He is Our Bridegroom, and HE is coming for us, but we do not know the day or the hour which is exactly the same in the Jewish Wedding Traditions. The Jewish Wedding Traditions that apply to Christ coming for His Bride the Church are as follows:

1. The man seek a bride had to make a contract with the father, agreeing on the purchase price of the Bride, which was due the day after she accepted the Proposal. The price the Father demanded to Redeem us was a Holy Blood Sacrifice, and Christ paid the price purchasing the Church as His Bride.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.


2. The wedding proposal was never verbal. The man seeking a Bride is invited to a family sit down supper, after making contract with the father. During the course of the meal the man would pour a cup of wine and passed it to his prospective Bride. If she drank from the cup she was accepting the proposal, and if she set it down without drinking, she was refusing the proposal. Jesus poured the cup and passed it to the Disciples the foundation of the Church. The Disciples drank from the betrothal cup accepting Jesus Christ as our Bridegroom. Just as in any Jewish Wedding Proposal, the Couple is known as Bride and Bridegroom throughout the Betrothal Period. ( Mat. 9:15 )

1 Corinthians 11:25 (NCV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]In the same way, after they ate, Jesus took the cup. He said, “This cup is the new agreement that is sealed with the blood of my death. When you drink this, do it to remember me.“

3. The first thing that would take place after the Bride drank from the Cup, accepting the Marriage Proposal, is the Bridegroom would stand, look at his Bride, and say, “I go to prepare a place for you.” He would then leave the old dwelling place of the Bride, never to set foot in it again until after the Wedding Ceremony. According to the Jewish Wedding Traditions, he would go back home and begin to build a New Dwelling Place for his Bride either in or near his father’s home. Jesus said in:

John 12:2-3 (NASB)
2 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

That comes straight out of a Jewish Wedding Proposal.

4. So did they set the Date for the Wedding like we do? NO, because only the father of the Bridegroom had the right to periodically inspect the New Dwelling Place and giving additional instructions to his son to add this and that, make this better, etc. Finally without any advanced warning, the father would say to his son, frequently near midnight, “It is finished, go get your Bride.”

Hence, it is a reality in any Jewish Wedding that ONLY the Father knows when the Wedding will start; because it is ONLY the Father that can decide when the New Dwelling Place is FINISHED, including the Wedding Decorations, because the Wedding ALWAYS took place in the New Dwelling Place. While the Son would go off to steal His Bride away like a Thief in the Night, the father would give orders to the servants to get ready to welcome the Wedding Guests. Where is our New Dwelling Place? The New City Jerusalem in Heaven and it is Decorated, adorned as you would a Bride, which eventually be lowered to the earth.

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

5. While it is true that NO ONE knew the day or hour that Wedding would begin, because only the father of the Bridegroom made that decision at the last minute; is was possible to see signs that the Time for the Wedding was NEAR. If the new dwelling place was outside the father’s house, the building itself was a visible sign of times, and/or by the products the servants were buying for their Master. When you saw them buying decorations for a Wedding you knew the time was near. At that time the Bride would gather her wedding party in her old dwelling place. They each would have to have a lantern with oil in because they new that the Jewish Wedding Traditions of 2000 years ago, dictated that the Bridegroom could come to call out his Bride late at night. We in a real sense are gathering the Wedding Party in our old dwelling place, “earth”, as we lead each new believer to receive Jesus as LORD. Sure we do not know the day or hour, but the signs of the times indicate that it is soon. Therefore we keep watch, expecting our Bridegroom to APPEAR in the clouds to call us out. And JUST LIKE the parable of ten virgins, ONLY those with oil in their lamps ( the Holy Spirit is the living oil in us ), get to go with the Bridegroom to the Wedding.

Mark 13:35 (NIV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]"Therefore keep watch {very relevant in a Pre-Trib Rapture} because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back--whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.

6. When the father tells the son to go get his Bride, he still does NOT set foot in the old dwelling place of the Bride. He actually travels to the old dwelling place of the Bribe, but stops just outside of it and calls her out. The Bridegroom is not the one that calls out the Bride, but rather he chooses a member of his wedding party to SHOUT to wake her and her wedding guests, calling her out of the old dwelling place. And they join with the Bridegroom’s wedding party and together they travel to the new dwelling that the Bridegroom has personally built, for the Wedding Ceremony. Jesus has actually chosen the archangel already to SHOUT and call us out of our old dwelling place “earth”.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.

7. The wedding ceremony in the new dwelling place was not like our weddings of today. They actually lasted seven days. If the guests lived close by they would go home, but if the bridegroom lived far away from the old dwelling place of the Bride, then accommodations would be made in the father’s house for the wedding guests. Each morning the Wedding celebrations would continue, with the official Marriage Supper being saved for last. Then they would travel back to the old dwelling place of the Bride for a reception dinner at Her Family's house, and the Bridegroom we set foot again in the old dwelling place of the Bride for the first time since the Bride had accepted his proposal.

Revelation 19:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
 
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GaryA

Guest
First of all you have to understand why the LORD called HIMSELF the BRIDEGROOM. The answer is in the FACT that the Bride of Christ is the ASSEMBLY that He has ALWAYS BEEN BUILDING. If you look at Young's Literal Translation, you will find out that the Word CHURCH, is not in the original GREEK. It really is ASSEMBLY, therefore the same promises of building His Assembly is an ongoing process that applies to both OT Saints and NT Saints.
Including the martyred Tribulation saints...???

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Is the Calling Out of the Bride (or Rapture) going to come first or is it the Second Coming?
I believe that it will be the first of a number of things that will all happen - in proper order - at the Second Coming of Christ.

:)
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
All you have to do is provide one passage that tells us:

1) Christ returns before the Tribulation
2) Christ returns twice
3) Any living person is taken to heaven
4) A teaching that makes a distinction between a pre-trib and trib saint.

Do that and I'll shut up. Do it not, then you're the one who made up a doctrine.:D
Thing is, you've been shown all the verses before. I know, months ago, I posted most all of them in the Bible, plain as the nose on your face, and did this at least a couple times, even tried some different colored keyword accents. (This takes a little effort, you know, highlighting things you have reading comprehension problems with. I was being nice. Other people have done this, too, some desperate, or more optimistic than me, and resorting to big fonts, so you've already had a whole lot better than like a triple whammy of the same truths.) Problem is, you don't believe the scriptures, just go about saying the Bible doesn't say what it says, that we should believe you, not our lying eyes.

I have a better idea, something everybody can agree on. How about we just leave it you don't understand the rapture aspect of Bible truths? This would be an opportunity for you, to move on to tearing down some other doctrine. It would be like a job promotion for you, even get you off that mobius strip of this dead end job of yours on ChristianChat. No?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Popeye,

1) we do not believe he returns to earth pretrib. he meets us in the air pretrib
Show me a passage that proves the above happens before the tribulation then.

I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
When Jesus comes again to receive us, where will He be?

when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Is Christ going to be reigning on earth or in heaven after He returns? Consider Rev 5:10.

And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

I ask again, where will Christ be when He returns and where do we reign with Him?

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Again, can we not be with the Lord after the Tribulation? The 1 Thes 4 passage provides no timing whatsoever so what makes you place it before the Tribulation when every single place where the timing is found places it AFTER the tribulation???

for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

to her (the church in heaven with Jesus).....(pre 2nd coming)
So you see the Church in heaven prior to the second coming??? Me too. How do people get to heaven today? They have to die first, right? I see the church getting absolutely decimated/slaughtered during Satan's terrible Great Tribulation. We have many, many passages that tell us the Little Horn/Beast is waging war with and overcoming the Saints. We have NO PASSAGE that tells us any living person is transported to heaven!!

4) 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
This parable does not say a word about any Pre Trib timing. The Master comes latter than expected, doesn't that tend to support Post Trib better?

You cite a lot of verses but as Gary points out, not one answers any of the questions I posed to you. The body of Christ did not leave this earth in a pristine body, did He? He left looking like a Lamb who had been slain. What makes you think His bride is going to fair any better at the hands of this wicked planet? Christ promises us Tribulation. There is no passage where we are taught the End Times Believer gets to avoid tribulation.

If God or Christ wanted us to believe in an earlier, Pre-Trib Rapture return there would be a simple verse that says something like this:

"...And before the Great Tribulation I will send my Son back to earth to gather the Elect Saints and escort them back to heaven until the Tribulation is over."

Why don't we see such a verse? Why do you have to piece together multiple passages including parables, etc, none of which state any of the key facts to come up with your theory. Is God the author of Confusion? Did Christ not twice tell the disciples, "behold, I have told you all things?" Since He did, where's Christ Pre-Trib Rapture teaching? It doesn't exist.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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This is the part that I have always considered to be the most ridiculous part of the whole pre-trib rapture teaching...

( And, I can say this with both love and sincerity --- I was taught this stuff when I was growing up --- however, I no longer believe it. And, I do not think I ever believed this particular part of it... )

If Jesus comes back - but His feet do not touch the ground - did He come back...?

What if His feet touch the ground "a little later on" ( after the rapture ) -- did He come back...???

:)
If you were in Los Angeles and boarded a plane to London and stopped at JFK to refuel but never got off the plane, did you enter New York or not? Let's say you were witnessing to a passage next to you and they accepted the Lord right there on the plane while sitting on the tarmac at JFK. Did they receive the Lord in LA or London or did they receive the Lord in New York State? They didn't touch the ground, so where they even in New York?

I know, this hovering nonsense not counting as a Return is absolutely crazy. There is no passage that says Christ hovers and doesn't touch ground. There is no passage that tells us He does a 180 and goes back to heaven. Instead we are told when He returns, He comes to reign on earth and we are gathered. That's all is says.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Postrib is impossible. the ac kills every born again humanoid w/o the mark.

Who/what is alive postrib for this imaginary postrib rapture?
The A/C does not kill everyone without the mark. Taking the "mark" has NOTHING to do with being killed. Not worshiping the image gets you killed. Please read it again.

...and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

The mark deals with buying and selling.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Jesus Himself tells us that the days are shortened for the Elect. Jesus also tells us that His angels gathers His Elect when He returns so obviously not every Christian is killed.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Clearly Christ is gathering Christians. My guess is that the "image" to the Beast is the Abomination of Desolation. That is why people are told to flee. If you flee you won't be there to be caught not worshiping the image. They can't kill you if they don't see you not worshiping the image, just like in Daniel's day. They had to catch you praying to someone other than the King. Make sense?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Thing is, you've been shown all the verses before. I know, months ago, I posted most all of them in the Bible, plain as the nose on your face, and did this at least a couple times, even tried some different colored keyword accents. (This takes a little effort, you know, highlighting things you have reading comprehension problems with. I was being nice. Other people have done this, too, some desperate, or more optimistic than me, and resorting to big fonts, so you've already had a whole lot better than like a triple whammy of the same truths.) Problem is, you don't believe the scriptures, just go about saying the Bible doesn't say what it says, that we should believe you, not our lying eyes.

I have a better idea, something everybody can agree on. How about we just leave it you don't understand the rapture aspect of Bible truths? This would be an opportunity for you, to move on to tearing down some other doctrine. It would be like a job promotion for you, even get you off that mobius strip of this dead end job of yours on ChristianChat. No?
All the big fonts and colored text in the world isn't going to change the words you posted before into saying what they don't say. NONE OF IT states any of the following:

1. Christ returns before the Tribulation
2. Any living person is taken back to heaven
3. End Time Christians avoid the Tribulation
4. There is a huge revival on earth following the Rapture
5. There are saints, and tribulation saints

The problem with your thinking is you start off with a false premise that the Lord returns before the tribulation, then you force everything else to fit into that view. Now I'm going to try to say this with Love, although you will be offended. The below passages apply to you and those who have fallen for this Pre-Trib Rapture lie.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

If you forget about 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 for one moment (and even those passage do not provide timing), your eyes would open to the truth that the Lord returns once after the Tribulation. But because you don't understand the hard concepts Paul was trying to teach, you end up twisting and inventing things not there. Just who do you think Paul was talking to:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (Christ returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

He is speaking directly to you. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is the ANY MEANS BY WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED.

You are being specifically warned NOT TO BE DECEIVE BY ANY MEANS, Any means Any. The Pre-Trib is an ANY MEANS.

My job is to actually help those who have been blinded by Satan's lie. That's why I am on here constantly tearing down this lie (which you call a doctrine) every chance I get. You are going to end up going out and worshiping Satan thinking he's Christ. Christ tells you to stay in and wait for Him. Man, this delusion God has sent you for believing the lie is so strong. It can't be broken without His help.

I was under the same delusion for a long time. I finally bowed down with earnest prayer and asked the Lord to show me the truth. All of a sudden my eyes were opened, it was the most incredible feeling. I wish you could experience it but you won't as long as you keep your heart and mind closed to the truth.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I believe that it will be the first of a number of things that will all happen - in proper order - at the Second Coming of Christ.

:)
We know it comes after the destruction of Islam.

Rev 19:2 He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Rev 19:7
for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

Rev 19:9 “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’”


It certainly is NOT before the Great Tribulation.