Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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Mar 4, 2013
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The sanctifying power of faith... the law kills, but the spirit gives life...
This is true, and there is law that metaphorically depicts destroying, and cleansing in sequence. Read Leviticus 14:33 through the end of the chapter. The house and all that is mentioned can be seen as daily cleaning within us, we being the house mentioned. It also shows us by the tools that are used a clear depiction of the hill of Calvary where our Savior died instead of us having to suffer and die. I love it! What love!!!
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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This can be related to sowing the seed of the Word, and the Woman being the church, or the ground in the parable of the sower and the seed. Sowing the seed during the wrong season will be in vain.
Oh? Where did you get that from the early church fathers who were full of allegories?
 
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Originally Posted by just-me

This can be related to sowing the seed of the Word, and the Woman being the church, or the ground in the parable of the sower and the seed. Sowing the seed during the wrong season will be in vain.
Oh? Where did you get that from the early church fathers who were full of allegories?
What church fathers? I'm endorsing the Word itself and nothing more. I wasn't thinking of any early church fathers, the Septuagint, the Greeks, the Romans, or anything else except straight KJV Bible. LOL GBU.
 
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How great and much better is that??? Why do people wish to go back to retake a test, they cannot pass?? I have no idea bro!!I sure am not! Now about your reference to Moses! take a look at hebrews 3!! Jesus is superior to Moses! 1-6( verse 3!) Moses was in his house!!
Hebrews 3:1-11 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Not Jesus in Moses house bro hehe) in verses 7-19 what we see here is the catastrophe of UNBELIEF!!! Why brother as a believer in Jesus would any wish to take second best??verse 4 God is the builder bro.Not Moses. verse 5 now Moses was faithful!! verse 6 BUT!!! Christ was faithful as a Son OVER!!! HIS House! whose house!! ready??? WE ARE!!!
John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Thanks for caring, even though you said that you didn't. GBU
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Interestingly enough, most really believe that Luke 16 is doctrine rather than a parable. Most believe that this is direct teaching about heaven and hell and it is to be taken literally. Well, most of it anyway. This part apparently does not apply...

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now who rose from the dead and who is this reference to? Why Jesus Christ of course.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If you won't here Moses and the prophets, you won't hear Christ either!

Now how'd that get in there? And, it is in red letters! Christ, Himself, says to heed Moses and the Prophets! But I am sure the lawless ones will have a way to explain this away also.
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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Interestingly enough, most really believe that Luke 16 is doctrine rather than a parable. Most believe that this is direct teaching about heaven and hell and it is to be taken literally. Well, most of it anyway. This part apparently does not apply...

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now who rose from the dead and who is this reference to? Why Jesus Christ of course.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If you won't here Moses and the prophets, you won't hear Christ either!

Now how'd that get in there? And, it is in red letters! Christ, Himself, says to heed Moses and the Prophets! But I am sure the lawless ones will have a way to explain this away also.
EXCELLENT! EXCELLENT! I'm ready to start another thread called "Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Interestingly enough, most really believe that Luke 16 is doctrine rather than a parable. Most believe that this is direct teaching about heaven and hell and it is to be taken literally. Well, most of it anyway. This part apparently does not apply...

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now who rose from the dead and who is this reference to? Why Jesus Christ of course.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If you won't here Moses and the prophets, you won't hear Christ either!

Now how'd that get in there? And, it is in red letters! Christ, Himself, says to heed Moses and the Prophets! But I am sure the lawless ones will have a way to explain this away also.
What lawless ones?

You mean we who come to God in faith, and trust him to save us completely and empower us to obey these commands?

Why is it you think we have no desire in the law? Just because we do not think we can be saved by it, that means we are then lawless??

Oh ye of little faith!

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
EXCELLENT! EXCELLENT! I'm ready to start another thread called "Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?"

be carefull brother. By your mere faith in Christ alone, he will think you are one of the lawless ones!
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
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Example bro. I give you a test to take in school, and you fulfill the taking of that test,do you go back to it ever again? No, No point!! It has been fulfilled, you await a new test,or in our case our New covenant!!

A better test set upon much better promises!! now this test when you take it, you know something you did not know in the last test!! YOU PASS!!! The last test was based upon how good you are and how smart YOU ARE!! This test has already been passed by Jesus himself!! YOU WIN before you even take it!!! All you have to do with this test is believe it!!

How great and much better is that??? Why do people wish to go back to retake a test, they cannot pass??
If I could clarify some points in your example...

It's already been established that it was the goal of the Pharisees to use the Law, or the Old Covenant, to affect someone's status before God. They thought obedience to it was critical for salvation, and disobedience disqualified you from it. It has also been established that the Torah was never intended to do this, because our salvation is by "grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast" (Eph 2:8-9).

Once you pass a test, you don't have to take it again, you're correct. (Unless you consider Final Exams, Licensing Exams, etc. ;))

However, every test you take builds upon the knowledge you gained on previous tests. When you're taking an Algebra test, are they any questions testing you on simple addition and subtraction? No. Would it be helpful to know and use simple math on each question, and for every math test you will ever take? Yes.

Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"

Blessings, bro.
Matt
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Are you absolutely sure we are not to keep "the law" (aka Torah)? I can show you over 10 examples of Paul, Peter, etc. keeping the Torah after the resurrection.

The Renewed Covenant (aka New Testament) is replete with examples proving that Paul, the disciples and Gentile converts were all keeping the Mosaic Law after the Resurrection.

I Corinthians 5:7-8 7 “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

Why is Paul instructing Gentile converts on how to keep the Passover Feast? Isn’t that part of the Mosaic Law that was nailed to the cross?

I Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?”
1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Acts 2:46
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

Acts 20:11
Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.

Neither the gospel accounts of the institution of the Supper nor Acts 2:42 nor 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 declare a day on which the Supper is to be observed. However, through an approved apostolic example and inferences from the New Testament, the day for its observance is clear-- the first day of the week.

While travelling and preaching the gospel, the apostle Paul came to Troas. Upon arriving in the city he stayed seven days.

“Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (Acts 20:7). Just as “the breaking of bread” in Acts 2:42 seemingly refers of the Lord’s Supper, so here, “to break bread” seemingly refers to the Lord’s Supper. These disciples, or Christians (Acts 11:26), assembled on the first day of the week to take the Lord’s Supper.

There is no example in the New Testament of another day on which Christians, or members of the Lord’s church, came together to eat the Supper.

but God Bless you in your choice of Saturday, if that is is so.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.
Matt
hi Matt.
what sin is, is clearly written...particularly and straightforwardly without confusion in the New Testament, since the Levitical issues are not there.

why not just teach what sin is directly?

this is why i don't understand grown adults searching for packets of baking yeast as some kind of round-about way to just teaching about SIN.

:)

the acting out through rituals (though it may feel as though we are "living" our faith, in reality, we are acting out symbols from the LAW) sounds more like being a child under a tutor than a free and responsible son who has learned his Father's rules.

and for Christian adults (mature believers, there's an element of superstition involved which can be harmful).
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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What lawless ones?

You mean we who come to God in faith, and trust him to save us completely and empower us to obey these commands?

Why is it you think we have no desire in the law? Just because we do not think we can be saved by it, that means we are then lawless??

Oh ye of little faith!

Which of the Laws are you keeping and which are you ignoring?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Which of the Laws are you keeping and which are you ignoring?

I can ask you the same question. Unless your perfect. (which scripture says you are not) do you think you are more righteous than myself?

Why are you basing ones eternity based on how well they CAN keep the law??
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Which of the Laws are you keeping and which are you ignoring?
john, are you able to bear the yoke neither Peter; Paul; James or the entire Jerusalem Council declared they nor their fathers were able to bear?

if so, i hope you have done so from a youth, and without a single transgression.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Acts 2:46
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

Acts 20:11
Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left.

Neither the gospel accounts of the institution of the Supper nor Acts 2:42 nor 1 Corinthians 11:23-29 declare a day on which the Supper is to be observed. However, through an approved apostolic example and inferences from the New Testament, the day for its observance is clear-- the first day of the week.

While travelling and preaching the gospel, the apostle Paul came to Troas. Upon arriving in the city he stayed seven days.

“Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (Acts 20:7). Just as “the breaking of bread” in Acts 2:42 seemingly refers of the Lord’s Supper, so here, “to break bread” seemingly refers to the Lord’s Supper. These disciples, or Christians (Acts 11:26), assembled on the first day of the week to take the Lord’s Supper.

There is no example in the New Testament of another day on which Christians, or members of the Lord’s church, came together to eat the Supper.

but God Bless you in your choice of Saturday, if that is is so.
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

In the highlighted phrase first day of the week

The word for first is:

G3391
μία
mia
mee'-ah
Irregular feminine of G1520; one or first: - a (certain), + agree, first, one, X other.

Yep, means first.

If you carefully note, the word day is in italics. Check and you will find that words in italics were not in the Greek but were added by the translators of the 1611 KJV. Day is not really in the Greek manuscripts.

the words "of the" were derived from the Greek word...

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho hē to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

And means the definite article.

The word the translators got "week" from is...

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

Here is how the Diaglott translates Acts 20:7...

Act 20:7 In and the first of the sabbaths, having been assembled of us to break bread, the Paul discoursed to them, being about to depart on the morrow; continued and the discourse till midnight.

So the discourse continued until midnight and then the next day he walked 19 miles acorss the peninsula to Assos to meet the disciples

Act 20:13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.
Act 20:14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene.

Walking nineteen miles is an odd way to keep Sunday as the Sabbath.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"
Paul is speaking from the perspective of having been a Judean living under the law of the old covenant in order to make a rhetorical point. I can assure you that I knew what sin was without knowing what the 10 commandments were. The laws of the new covenant command faith and love. Sin is a violation of those laws written in the heart.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If I could clarify some points in your example...



Application: Do we need the Torah to "pass" into right standing with God? No. Do we need to know what sin is to avoid doing it on a daily basis? I would recommend it.

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"

Blessings, bro.
Matt
I pray you understand Paul was taking this from a viewpoint to those trying to be saved under law.

paul follows this with his main point.


[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

Paul is saying the law (command) causes him to sin, it does not help him not sin, It brings in him ALL manner of evil DESIRE (to Sin) And by it, the law decieved him, and he was killed by it (sin)
 
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Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Under the old covenant the sabbath day was the holiest day of the week. Under the new covenant, the holiest act of worship was breaking bread together on the first day of the week.

Well now isn't interesting...
 
Mar 4, 2013
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be carefull brother. By your mere faith in Christ alone, he will think you are one of the lawless ones!

LOL. thanks for the warning. What I say, if it is truth according to the will of God is not me, it's Him. If I discern within myself, I am already wrong. I guess that makes me a glutton for punishment. Love ya man. really!!

Philippians 4:6-9 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.