Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[eternally-gratefull]

Like John said on the other thread, someone just please shoot me.

let me try to help people.

there are so many who add the law (commands) to grace for salvation, it is amazing. (there are a few in this room discussing this with us)

so when some of us see someone come in and start preaching law. we want to figure out which type they are. so we ask questions.

this tends to offend people. or cause misunderstanding.

thats the problem with not listening to what someone says, or answering questions, and just comming out fighting.

You did what most who add law to grace do. You said something about easy believism, and that I believe we can sin however..

those are red flags..

sorry if there was a misunderstanding.. but we need to know what each other believes..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And then if we sin.... we have our advocate in Christ!

amen.

so are not those who try to add the ten commands to grace and salvation not judiazers? because they are adding law to grace?

they do not believe as we do. can you see this now?

 

[just-me]

Can I ask those of you who we have had conflict with for days, to please understand that when we mention the Mosaic Law, that we are addressing it for the purpose of explaining its proper place via the grace of God, as Jesus properly defined it. I am NOT endorsing the physical aspects in the least, particularly the sacrificial part. It is, however, morally right to investigate the precepts of the law that is consequential in addition to the Levitical Law but not the same, and through the Spirit of God let it minister to us. I truly hope this doesn't start another confrontation. May our God bless all in wisdom and truth, knowing that ALL of scripture has its purpose, and because we have a God of equity, all of His Word works in co-ordination with everything else that He has given and created holding all things with the gravity that He intended. Blessings to all.

 

[secularhermit]

I rather belong to a cult like taht that aligning with those who boast to tag labels on denominations. Revelations tells me I will be somehow Jewish is God saves me...

 

[john832]

Recently my wife was accused of belonging to a cult called the Hebrew Roots Movement. I didn't know what it was, so I went to this url: What is the Hebrew Roots movement?
I am wanting input, for both my wife and I believe that the Mosaic Law was given to us as a tool by God himself and is still relevant today. This causes great division, but just because we believe in the Bible as a whole, has the falling away gotten to the point where we are rejecting in bitterness parts of the Word of God that we don't like or what?

Only thing I would say is that the Law is the Law of God. He spoke the Ten Commandments, which were in force from creation, from Mt. Sinai to all the people. The rest He spoke to Moses who was simply the scribe or transcriptionist.

 

[john832]

Only thing I would say is that the Law is the Law of God. He spoke the Ten Commandments, which were in force from creation, from Mt. Sinai to all the people. The rest He spoke to Moses who was simply the scribe or transcriptionist.

Other than that, I am woefully ignorant of the Hebrew Roots movement so I cannot comment.

 

[Brighthouse]

hi just me I believe you know my feeling upon this movement,they were around in galatians and paul said to them this.gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ,you who are seeking to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. faith WORKS!!!! BY love, not by works of the law.and Rom 10:4 really puts this into prespective for us all to me bro. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who does what bro??amen believes!! This includes the Ten commandment.hebrews 8:9-13 I have found this bro, not wishing to argue! Those who look to mix the law with grace are never comforted. This is because the law condemns us.rom 8:1 there was no grace in the law,there was no salvation through it either. It was created to show mans sin,never to clean him of it. hope this helps bro.hebrews 10:1-10 there is only the reminder of sins through there sacrifice,never the forgivness of them.As you read.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can I ask those of you who we have had conflict with for days, to please understand that when we mention the Mosaic Law, that we are addressing it for the purpose of explaining its proper place via the grace of God, as Jesus properly defined it. I am NOT endorsing the physical aspects in the least, particularly the sacrificial part. It is, however, morally right to investigate the precepts of the law that is consequential in addition to the Levitical Law but not the same, and through the Spirit of God let it minister to us. I truly hope this doesn't start another confrontation. May our God bless all in wisdom and truth, knowing that ALL of scripture has its purpose, and because we have a God of equity, all of His Word works in co-ordination with everything else that He has given and created holding all things with the gravity that He intended. Blessings to all.

Nothing wrong with this bro.

I think we all have been saying we need to study this. it is just I think we got defensive for some reason and could not see what each other was saying.

 

[just-me]

hi just me I believe you know my feeling upon this movement,they were around in galatians and paul said to them this.gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ,you who are seeking to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. faith WORKS!!!! BY love, not by works of the law.and Rom 10:4 really puts this into prespective for us all to me bro. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who does what bro??amen believes!! This includes the Ten commandment.hebrews 8:9-13 I have found this bro, not wishing to argue! Those who look to mix the law with grace are never comforted. This is because the law condemns us.rom 8:1 there was no grace in the law,there was no salvation through it either. It was created to show mans sin,never to clean him of it. hope this helps bro.hebrews 10:1-10 there is only the reminder of sins through there sacrifice,never the forgivness of them.As you read.

You said nothing that I would argue with at all, or anything that I don't already know. Where the conflict comes is when those that value the law, (and it really is much more than condemnation) explain its value for today, and for the believer as well. There is no justification by us abiding by it, but there is great value in it that continues for all mankind including the saved. One might call it Spiritual food. I'm sure this is where you and I see things differently. GBU

 

[just-me]

Nothing wrong with this bro.

I think we all have been saying we need to study this. it is just I think we got defensive for some reason and could not see what each other was saying.

I started in the other thread when I mentioned the moral decline of the United States, and incorporating Bible principles into a nations government. There is a reason that our country is in the shape that it is in, and continuing a moral decline. I think it has to do with the Spiritual food that I mentioned to Brighthouse.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Now I'm not saying that enforcing this will bring salvation. Enforcing it brings peace and prosperity to a nation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I started in the other thread when I mentioned the moral decline of the United States, and incorporating Bible principles into a nations government. There is a reason that our country is in the shape that it is in, and continuing a moral decline. I think it has to do with the Spiritual food that I mentioned to Brighthouse.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Now I'm not saying that enforcing this will bring salvation. Enforcing it brings peace and prosperity to a nation.

yes,

and as I said, we need to get to the heart of the matter, which is that people need God.

when we try to enforce or judge. We cause backlash,, which hides the real message.

Jesus did not go in judging, he went in loving and forgiving, he led people to him, THEN change occured..

would you not agree??

anyway, I think this is where we got off on the wrong foot. You did not understand I was not judging you. just agreeing with you in part. but saying we need to do much much more than this..

 

[just-me]

yes,

and as I said, we need to get to the heart of the matter, which is that people need God.

when we try to enforce or judge. We cause backlash,, which hides the real message.

Jesus did not go in judging, he went in loving and forgiving, he led people to him, THEN change occured..

would you not agree??

anyway, I think this is where we got off on the wrong foot. You did not understand I was not judging you. just agreeing with you in part. but saying we need to do much much more than this..

We can continue in the other forum in peace then, putting effort into understanding each other?

John 7:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Romans 2:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
John 8:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


GBU

 

[zone]

The word "Judaizer" only is appropriate for those who are sacrificing animals for their sins since Christ fulfilled the sacrificial laws.

Re: Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

"The heresies of the apostolic age are, respectively, the caricatures of the several types of the true doctrine. Accordingly we distinguish three fundamental forms of heresy, which reappear, with various modifications, in almost every subsequent period. In this respect, as in others, the apostolic period stands as the type of the whole future; and the exhortations and warnings of the New Testament against false doctrine have force for every age.

1. The Judaizing tendency is the heretical counterpart of Jewish Christianity. It so insists on the unity of Christianity with Judaism, as to sink the former to the level of the latter, and to make the gospel no more than an improvement or a perfected law."

Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume I: Apostolic Christianity. A.D. 1-100.

Re: Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

there has been evidence and testimony posted in this thread proving people enter the HR movement and completely reject and renounce Jesus Christ, converting to Judaism.

there's plenty more information out there.

 

[Brighthouse]

So agree!! The study of the law is not the problem to me bro!! Much has been learned from our study of it! But to apply this instead of what Jesus provided, that is bad! so excellent point justme!

 

[Shiloah]

So agree!! The study of the law is not the problem to me bro!! Much has been learned from our study of it! But to apply this instead of what Jesus provided, that is bad! so excellent point justme!

No one no where in this thread ever suggested we should apply the law aside from Christ's sacrifice. Show me one spot where that was suggested? You'd have to take it entirely out of context.

 

[KohenMatt]

I'm saying neither of these covenants were ever designed to offer salvation for the individual. The standard for that was set by Abraham. "Abraham believed, and it was credited to Him as righteousness".

yes we agree!

So when Paul speaks against the law, He is speaking against the Pharisees use of it to change the Gentiles stance before God. That is a function of the law that God never intended.

we disagree. The pharisees used the law to think they were right before God. thus they did not need an eternal redeemer, they already had eternity with God given, THEY EARNED IT BY THE LAW!

Actually, I think we agree on this as well. We agree that the Mosaic Covenant was never intended by God to offer salvation. I also agree with you that The pharisees used the law to think they were right before God. thus they did not need an eternal redeemer, they already had eternity with God given, THEY EARNED IT BY THE LAW
Paul was coming against their use of the law in this way. And I would have been standing right beside him in agreement. The Pharisees had some major issues. Our redemption always has been and always will be through Jesus' death.

And this context, in my mind at least, perfectly explains why Paul kept the Torah, and why Jesus said,
Matthew 5:17-19 "“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoeverkeeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

1. we agree. Jesus fullfilled the law. The moral, sacrifical and judgmental were fulfilled completely in jesus.
2. We agree, Moral sin is sin, and should not be taken lightly.
3. I hope we agree, that God is fulfilling them in our lives every day, and will until this earth passes away.

I think where we may differ (not sure about you. But I KNOW OTHERS AND I DO) is that these things are required to be saved. Where as I believe those who are truly born again WILL do his commands and teach them. Those who are not saved, but impostors, will not (or will not teach them the correct way, as in legalism)

I agree with all 3 of your points. And NO, I don't believe any of the Law/Torah is required to be saved. Our obedience to anything God commands, whether it is the 10 Commandments, the Bigger Torah, or Jesus' commands should be a response to God's merciful salvation. That is why I follow the Torah, and attempt to show others the purpose and the beauty of it. (Mind you, I also do the same with the other Commands I mentioned.)

I liken it somewhat to my marriage. I married my wife 13 years ago. I love her deeply. I take out the trash, do the laundry and wash the dishes BECAUSE I love her. If I didn't do those things, would be still be legally married? Yes. Would either of us be very happy? No.

If I don't keep any of God's commands and don't teach others to do the same, will I still be in the Kingdom of God? Yes. Would I be considered amongst the least? Sounds like it to me.

I do not think you understand what most of us are saying here.

I think the more all of us talk one-to-one (And it sounds like you and I are getting there), the clearer our understanding is of people's beliefs. I know there are a handful of people here who think that because I follow the Torah, I'm attempting to earn or keep my salvation. But I think others who take the time to talk one-on-one understand a little more.

Thanks for the dialogue!
Matt

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one no where in this thread ever suggested we should apply the law aside from Christ's sacrifice. Show me one spot where that was suggested? You'd have to take it entirely out of context.

lol.. Not sure about this thread. But a few have said this.. Don;t think people in here do not believe this.

I think he was just making a point though

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, I think we agree on this as well. We agree that the Mosaic Covenant was never intended by God to offer salvation. I also agree with you that The pharisees used the law to think they were right before God. thus they did not need an eternal redeemer, they already had eternity with God given, THEY EARNED IT BY THE LAW
Paul was coming against their use of the law in this way. And I would have been standing right beside him in agreement. The Pharisees had some major issues. Our redemption always has been and always will be through Jesus' death.

we agree. The pharisees, and many jews after who Paul had to fight trying to infiltrate the new church

I agree with all 3 of your points. And NO, I don't believe any of the Law/Torah is required to be saved. Our obedience to anything God commands, whether it is the 10 Commandments, the Bigger Torah, or Jesus' commands should be a response to God's merciful salvation. That is why I follow the Torah, and attempt to show others the purpose and the beauty of it. (Mind you, I also do the same with the other Commands I mentioned.)

I liken it somewhat to my marriage. I married my wife 13 years ago. I love her deeply. I take out the trash, do the laundry and wash the dishes BECAUSE I love her. If I didn't do those things, would be still be legally married? Yes. Would either of us be very happy? No.

If I don't keep any of God's commands and don't teach others to do the same, will I still be in the Kingdom of God? Yes. Would I be considered amongst the least? Sounds like it to me.


I think the more all of us talk one-to-one (And it sounds like you and I are getting there), the clearer our understanding is of people's beliefs. I know there are a handful of people here who think that because I follow the Torah, I'm attempting to earn or keep my salvation. But I think others who take the time to talk one-on-one understand a little more.

Thanks for the dialogue!
Matt

Agree here also.

Just remember, don;t take what everyone says as an insult. They may see you as one who does. Because many do..

 

[just-me]

So agree!! The study of the law is not the problem to me bro!! Much has been learned from our study of it! But to apply this instead of what Jesus provided, that is bad! so excellent point justme!

I think the door swings both ways sometimes. If we say things that lead the unlearned to think the law doesn't matter anymore, like taking the word "fulfill" and describing it in such a way as to cause them to reject it, then we made a mistake. If people believe that, then salvation has no responsibility, or accountability. The law is a schoolmaster, and food even for the believer. If we take the law and claim we are justified by the works thereof, we make just as big of a mistake in the other direction. With that said, I think we value this tool, given to us by God i.e. Christ Jesus at different levels. God is not divided neither has he given us corruption.
Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The failure of His law is not Him, it's us.

John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

We must always keep in mind that the Pharisees changed the law according to their own liking. WE must be careful not to do the same in the opposite direction. In all reality, I don't want to belong to any movement like this. I'm perfectly satisfied with what I have, even though my beliefs have labeled me as being one of them. So the door does swing both ways. I can surely agree with your beliefs, but it's the way we word things I would suppose. You wrote this about the law "But to apply this instead of what Jesus provided, that is bad!" When people read that, they think that the law should never be investigated for truth or Spiritual food. Then the unsaved will never be able to have the benefit of the schoolmaster. WE have false conversions and people who don't see the necessity of salvation because there is no schoolmaster that we can tell them about. Then they don't know why, and really don't care and are more vulnerable to continue in their lost state. WE are justified by faith, apart from the works of the law, but the schoolmaster has nothing to do with works.

 

[KohenMatt]

we agree.
Just remember, don;t take what everyone says as an insult. They may see you as one who does. Because many do..

Oh, have no fear, it takes an awful lot for me to feel insulted or offended. If I gave off that impression at any point, I apologize. At no point did I ever feel that way. And if I have caused offense or insult to anyone, I hope they forgive me.

So anyways, back to the opening question......

Is the Hebrew Roots movement a cult?