Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

presidente · Sep 16, 2013

Cee said:

Can you say God doesn't use sickness? What about smiting the Egyptians with all kinds of plagues, including physical ailments? What about the blind men who was born blind 'that the works of God might be manifest in him'? What about when Paul was full of the Holy Ghost and declared that Elymas would be blind, and then the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, who witnessed this, believed? Can you say God didn't use that?

If the thief only comes to steal, kill, and to destroy, that doesn't prove God can't inflict people with sickness if He desires.

I don't agree with your reasoning here. If one believes that every sickness is from God and it is God's will to keep the person that way, that makes sin. That doesn't make sense in the case of the blind man who was born blind 'that the works of God might be manifest in him.'

presidente · Sep 16, 2013

zone said:

John 9
1As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man’s eyes with the mud 7and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.

8The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” 9Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.” 10So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” 11He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed and received my sight.” 12They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.”

13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” 16Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. 17So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.”

18The Jews did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22(His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesusa to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) 23Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

24So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” 25He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” 28And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” 30The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. 32Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.

35Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”b 36He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”

37Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” 40Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” 41Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt;c but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.

no indication the man had faith he would be healed - AT ALL.
HEALED FIRST.
he didn't even know who Jesus was.

That's not a bad example for your point. But it isn't conclusive either. The man did not yet believe that Jesus is the Son of Man. Does that mean he had no faith at all that this stranger who he allowed to put mud made with his spittle on his eyes could help him? Why would he go along with it otherwise? Many people had faith to be healed. That doesn't mean they had faith in the whole Apostle's Creed. The apostles' did not know all those things either before the resurrection.

You wrote, "and all the ones He did where NO ONE believed." Can you say that no one believed? What about Christ who was performing the miracle? Don't you think He believed the man would be healed before putting mud made out of spit on his eyes? The text does not state that the man had no faith at all. Usually these passages either point out someone having faith or just don't mention the topic.

SarahM777 · Sep 16, 2013

Let's try this again. (Why is this so hard to answer?)

SarahM777 said:

Can you answer this? Can any of you who say the gifts continued please explain this

Originally Posted by SarahM777

Humor me on this for a moment. How did Katherine Kuhlman even get a foothold in the very denominations that claim to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit? How did they miss that she was false in the first place? If one of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment how is it they didn't catch her?

Originally Posted by SarahM777

Can you please explain this,why do so many people who say they have the gifts of the spirit,continue to listen to the likes of Benny Hinn,Perry Stone,Joyce Myers,Joel Olsteen,Todd Bentley etc etc why isn't the Holy Spirit warning them to stay away from them? Does that make any sense at all that someone who says they are spirit filled would continue to listen to those people? How much of their support is by many people who claim to have the gifts of the spirit?

The people who support a lot of that stuff on you tube are the VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO claim they have the gifts of the spirit. If they truly have the gifts of the Spirit why then doesn't it seem they have the gift of discernment? Why are they not be addressed as being false by the very people who claim to have the gifts? It's the irony that most don't seem to get,the very same people who claim to have the gifts are often the very same people SUPPORTING them. How is that even POSSIBLE if one of the gifts is DISCERNMENT?

SarahM777 · Sep 16, 2013

What is so sad about this all is that the people who founded the Pentecostals and charismatic movements themselves believed the gifts ENDED and this is a RESTORATION of the gifts.

Pentecostal History Proves Cessation of Spiritual Gifts

8 CommentsPosted by Acidri on March 7, 2011

For over 15 years I grew up a Pentecostal/Charismatic. I have featured these video because of the depth of history they cover. They are not featured in jest or to taunt. But if it provokes some body to read their Bible and search deeper in the Scriptures then it will have at least served a purpose worthy of the calling that this blog was designed to achieve. To the glory of God.

The entire Pentecostal movement was founded upon the idea that the spiritual gifts previously experienced at Pentecost and during the New Testament era had left the church for a time but were now returning to the church. The leaders are quoted as making such statements several times. According to their own teaching this was a “restoration” of gifts that had formerly been lost to the church.

Headlines in their papers read “Pentecostal Baptism Restored” and “Pentecost Has Come.” In these articles they say God was “bringing back the Pentecostal Baptism to the church” and until this time men had only been preaching a “partial gospel.” This clearly reveals that even the founders knew there was NO evidence of tongues or any other spiritual gift in their day and age until they began to experience it. The men who founded the Pentecostal churches in our communities today taught that until they were formed, tongues and other gifts had been taken from the church.

Pentecostal History Proves Cessation of Spiritual Gifts | A Twisted Crown of Thorns ®

The man also posted two videos that SHOW the headlines from the very papers they were writing at that time,which showed they themselves believed this is a restoration of the gifts NOT that they continued from the time of the apostles.

inge · Sep 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Your answer does not solve the other issue I bring up:

I do not think Paul would first write "it all ceases after a while" and than write his advise to: "desire spiritual gifts". That does not make sense to me. Can you explain that?

"No one would say the old testament believers had the spiritual gifts yet they do speak of knowledge and wisdom"
I think this is too black an white. The old testament speaks sometimes about a gift of the Spirit, or being filled with....

And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; Ex 35:31

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: Deut 34:9

This verse I found also in the old testament it speaks of Jesus:

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; Jes 11:22

While I did read this I was thinking about what Jesus Himself says about the Spirit. I found a connection between knowledge and Spirit in it that I think is important in this issue of “gift of knowledge” and knowledge.
This says Jesus:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you..... But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto John 14:16,17, 26

When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Joh 16:13, 14, 15

Jesus did send unto US the Comforter whom is the Holy Spirit, and this is what He will do:

He shall teach you all things

bring all things to your remembrance

He will guide you into all truth

He will shew you things to come

He shall glorify me

He shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you

I do not always see a clear distinction between the gifts of the Spirit and the general receiving of the Spirit or His fulfillment. Do you? Look:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;

to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another ......

….....

But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 1 Cor 12:4-12

I see much similarity between Jesus talking about the Spirit and Paul. Do you think that what Jesus said is ceased too? I see the Spirit as a big Gift in the bible. And some receive specific this from/by Him, others that, all according to His will, to build up the body (church). It is one Spirit, one Comforter, I am not sure how you want to "slice Him?"

When you say the perfection did came and the gifts did cease, is the Spirit still needed than?
I read in Acts that with Pentecostal the “church is born”. When the Spirit is given to build up. What is exactly ceased? Is the (general) gift of the Spirit ceased too? And when you say the Spirit is still working, shall He still teach us things and shew us what is too come, as Jesus mentions? Or is this part of the bible also not for us anymore..... Because how can we distinct than what is teaching for the first church, and what is teaching for the latter churches?

"There two types of the knowledge in the Bible. 1 Corinthians speaks of the GIFT of knowledge. .......One is the spiritual gift of knowledge the other is LEARNED from study."
As you say no where is mentioned that 'perfection' means 'when Jesus comes'. I can tell you: no where is mentioned that this 'knowledge' is just 'gifts' look. → Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8

I agree there is general knowledge and a gift of knowledge. But as soon as you have the Spirit you have (general) Spiritual Wisdom living inside of you. "A gift" is something specific for certain tasks to build up the church. I think God is Spirit and we can only learn real knowledge than by Spirit.

We do have the attitude to put God in a box. Our mind, spirit, cannot comprehend Him or His ways. And we are totally lost about His will when we do not have Him inside of us. Knowledge comes from God. Even when we study the bible we cannot study without God opening our eyes and mind. So is God still able to give revelation, Spirit, gifts of the Spirit? I think we can agree on that, He is able. But than the next one:

Is God still giving gifts? Weather it is called “gifts of the Spirit” or just..... “revelation” ??

As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams. Dan 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, ... Eph 1:17-19

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; Col 1:9

Without God, we are blind. Without His Spirit we cannot walk in the Spirit. Without the Spirit of knowledge we cannot understand knowledge. Only in Him and through Him we find wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment and understanding. What do you think about this?

Why does God send His Spirit?
Was this only for comforting? What was the task of the Spirit in the new testament? Why did God send the Spirit instead of Jesus? I like to take the big picture of the bible to explain the work (and knowledge) of the Spirit.

Old testament = Written law on paper. Old covenant.
People studied the Tenach, the prophets and the Law. The priests did (had to) learn the people what God wants.

New testament = Spirit as law. New covenant.
People receive the Spirit. The Spirit teaches knowledge of God. We are all priests - Rev 1:6

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Hand 7:51

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Rom2:29

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom8:9

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:6

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:18

To understand God, we need His Spirit and we need more of the Spirit to understand God more.
So when we come to the water that comes out of the Rock of our salvation (Jesus) that went with them (1Cor 3:4) in the desert, and lick (thirsty) the water like with Gideon (Judge 7). So how much of the Spirit do you want. Half, full....overflowing... more and more? You see now a bigger picture? And again in Ezechiel 47 when he is swimming (total surrender) in the (living) water running out of under the temple? What comes out of your Temple? (1Cor 3:6)You want to stand aside, stand with water to your knees, or swim in the living water?

He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Joh 7:38,39

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17

Whom was from all the apostles an expert in the old testament, old covenant? Had much, much human knowledge? Yes Paul, raised at the feet of Gamaliel a pharisee (Acts 5:34, Acts 22:3). So if you want fully to understand the new covenant, the new testament rooted in the old testament, read all Pauls letters from front to end and from end to front.
He knows, by knowledge and personal experience that

1 Jesus was real, and risen (he saw Him)

2 Jesus fulfilled the law (he knew the books)

3 God gives the Spirit (that is what makes him -you-me- see Acts 7:19)

4 The Spirit gives knowledge of God. (he testifies of it)
5 The Spirit gives......

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

However we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Cor 2

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Joh 3:5,6

Jesus brings the Kigdom of God, and the Kingdom of God can only entered by the Spirit. Everyone whom accepts Christ receives the Spirit. When we pray to understand God more, we pray for more Spirit.

inge · Sep 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Are you aware you focus on movements and people all the time?

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Act 17:11

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

Paul wasn't the founder of the gifts
Nor was Moody, Spurgeon, Azusa, Assembly of God, Protestant church etc
God gave Pentecostal day - God did send His Spirit.

And the difference is between me and you is that you think based on one verse that the gifts did cease and I think based on a lot of bible verses that the gifts are not ceased. Right?

I will think about your other questions and when I find the time to thoroughly answer you get an answer.

SarahM777 · Sep 16, 2013

inge said:

Again Paul is writing to the church at CORINTH not the First Pentecostal church of Hobooken,NJ. They are still receiving the gifts. When he wrote to them they hadn't ended yet. No church would ever try to make this passage fit their church UNLESS it was happening in their church

1 Corinthians 5

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b]so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Is Paul speaking directly to you that this problem is in your church? When Paul says to say Hi to Priscilla is Paul speaking directly to you? When Paul talks about the men is he speaking directly to you?

When Paul tells the Corinthians the gifts will cease he is preparing THEM for the time when the gifts will cease,when Paul tells them all that REMAINS is faith,hope and love he is telling THEM that is that remains. WE ARE READING THEIR MAIL. We are reading a letter that is written DIRECTLY to THEM,and it MUST be read from that perspective.

BradC · Sep 16, 2013

zone said:

For the tenth time or so I am not 'Red', so get over that for beginners.

This must have been convicting for you.

'Your too much and too contrary. I am not a fool about your way of thinking in these matters. Nothing is being taken away, added to or substituted from the written word as you might think. In Gen 3 they heard the voice of the Lord that made a sound in their ears convicting them of their disobedience and they responded by hiding themselves among the trees of the garden in their self conscious nakedness. Oh, that we would be so sensitive in our response to the sound of his voice, that still small voice of conviction, who walks in the garden of His presence. I'll take that still small voice of loving conviction that comes from the presence of God that dwells in us and be thankful that we have a God that walks in the midst of his people. No sensationalism, no emotionalism, no hyper spirituality, just faith in the living God through the breath of his Spirit guiding us into the light of his promises. Having peace that becomes the authority of our understanding, a love that goes beyond knowledge and a joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. That is what the kingdom of God's dear Son is all about and that kingdom of God is within us and not here or there with some kind of sight observation. The kingdom of God is within us as individuals and among us as God's body of elect people and it is all a mystery that you and others can't figure out. Go figure if you must'.

There is more important things to do then follow you around. You say some things that get my attention and I respond and that is all it is. If you make something more than that, it's all on your shoulder. Nothing was made up on my part concerning Gen 3 and the still small voice of God's presence, it's all right there for anyone to perceive and believe if they want to. You are inclined to think differently because of your leanings in the scriptures. Most people know that about you and how you lean, it's obvious. Adam and his wife had no problems with the presence of God that came to them daily in the cool of the day to teach them and have fellowship with them, but after they had transgressed, God's presence and the sound of his voice effected them greatly with conviction revealing insecurity, isolation and self preservation. That's what happened and that is why they hid themselves and sowed fig leaves. God knew what they had done and presented himself to them to deal with it because of deception and their disobedience.

Gen 3:8-10 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Do you not relate conviction to the power of God's presence? We have Isaiah 6:1-8 as one example. Take a look and tell me what you think, but don't adjust your answer because I am the one that asked.

SarahM777 · Sep 16, 2013

inge said:

UMM Sorry inge,if you have read everything that I wrote,I do NOT base the gifts ending on just one verse. Acts after chapter 19 DOES NOT show anyone receiving the gifts of tongues,Paul towards the end is unable to heal some people,James shows that a change in HOW we were to seek healing is taking place. James never says to seek a person that HAS the gift of miraculous healing but through PRAYER.

The question on the movements is what is the source of the tongues etc? Are they from God or not? And again a question that many,many people who say the gifts are being restored (That is what the foundation of the beliefs of the movements was started on) are MISSING or endorsing many of the false prophets and that is nothing new that has been going on since the beginning of these movements and the question that it seems few will even try to answer is if these same people who claim to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit which includes DISCERNMENT,can you or someone else explain if they have the gifts including discernment HOW DID THEY MISS ALL THE FALSE PROPHETS? It should NOT BE THAT WAY. They should be the very first to denounce them if they truly have the gifts including discernment. How is that even possible?

BradC · Sep 16, 2013

Zone, You can call or refer to me as 'Red' because I like what the Boston 'Red Sox' are doing in baseball (hottest team in baseball). When baseball ends this year you'll have to stop with the name unless they win the world series and you can call me anything you want. Did you know that God inspired baseball in this country as well as basketball and football? I am not making that up either. I know I would be hard pressed to prove that to you because of your great need for documentation. God saved me as a young man by grace through faith in his Son and the only documentation I can give you is the faith of the son of God who died and gave his life for me and the confession of my heart that believes that he rose from the dead. I was lost but I have been found, was blind but now I see. I was in darkness but I now have been called into his marvellous light. I can't document how that happened because it took place by faith and through faith. It is a mystery of faith.

As far as tongues go in the body of Christ, the only tongues that is needed as God wills it, is for others to hear the gospel or some message and testimony of the gospel of Christ when people are in unbelief or need to hear it in their own language. Other than that, we as believers have the word, the Spirit, the promises of God and the fellowship of other believers who keep us walking by faith in the light making an invisible God visible. Concerning prophecy we have the word of prophecy in the scriptures that has been written and recorded for our profit and we have those who are called by God in the church to give occasional warnings that are needed and isolated to get the attention of some or the many. Do these need to be functioning in the assembly meetings as a practice of faith, NO! but if God wills in isolated instances then we should obey even if it goes against what we have practiced.

peacefulbeliever · Sep 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Sarah, the church epistles are written to the church as a whole. If the things in chapter 5 are happening in your church then there is set before us an example through this letter on how to deal with the situation.

Even when Paul says Hi to Priscilla. . . .an example of how to greet members of the household! lol

Now when I see scripture "face to face" and when scripture allows me to know "even as I am known". . .then the manifestations of the Spirit have ceased. . . .but as of yet - I don't see scripture face to face and I do not know even as I am known for I still do not have full knowledge - I only know in part and still see through a glass darkly. I don't believe any one in here has full knowledge. . . if we did there wouldn't be any debates at all.

peacefulbeliever · Sep 16, 2013

faith and healing:

Matt. 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be made whole.
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Matt. 15:22 And behold a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. . . . Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. . . .Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Matt. 8 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof; but speak the word only , and my servant shall be healed. . . .When Jesus heard it he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. . . . .Go thy way and as thou hast believed so be it done unto thee.

Mark 10 Blind Barimaeus: And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he bagan to cry out, and say, Jesus thou son of David, have mercy on me. . . . . And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee. . . .What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:15,16

inge · Sep 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I think we have an issue here.

Is THE WORD all cultural for that time, or in period for that time, or only for the persons written too? And so, is it not for us? I read Gods word as Gods word for me. And every issue dealt with in it is something I need to see if it is addressing bad behavior in my life or encouraging me to learn from it.

Why otherwise learn from the bible, books sometimes more than 2000 years old? What perspective is that?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim 3:16

I take God on His word. Or should I take THE WORD, Jesus words etc. all in perspective?
Is the whole new testament Gods word to your opinion?

There are general truths in the bible and specific words for specific issues. But the gift of God is even not a specific issue.
Based on the new testament (from Jesus description of the Holy Spirit till Revelation) we can say it is a general truth that the Gifts of the Spirit are still active in this whole period as it is written. In all books of the new testament, direct and indirect, are they mentioned/used. Several verses.

But this "ceasing verse" is ONE VERSE to ONE CHURCH. According to your own argument that means we need to take it in perspective. Lets go on with that: It is just written to THIS particular church in Corinth and noone else. All other churches went on with the gifts (Thessalonian, Collosians, Ephesian). Because THEY did not receive such a word I can put it in the perspective that the Corinthians needed to stop. But the rest could go on. Or is this a wrong perspective?

Perspective is a nice word. But I never, never read this word in the bible.
When Jesus talked with the people about God in the old testament He said: "it is written" He never said "let's see it in perspective".

Your argument, written in this way, does not fit in this debate.

Stephen63 · Sep 16, 2013

AvalonXQ said:

Nope; actually human beings today care more about other humans all over the planet than ever before. Global empathy is on the "upswing" and has been for several years.

Nope; it's about the same as it's been for centuries.

People always believe that they're in the End Times and things have suddenly gotten worse, but the truth is that your parents thought the same thing, and their parents, etc. In reality it's all about the same - except that we have more people making lives for themselves, fewer people starving to death, and more people living longer than ever.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think the rest of the world is just like the U.S.? You need to get out more often.

Stephen63 · Sep 16, 2013

SarahM777 said:

No argument there. You make a valid point.

Now, ask yourself how did the third wave get into the more liberal Lutheran denominations? The same way. Slackness in the body of Christ allows Satan to sneak in very easily. No denomination is immune. It happens to anybody who slacks and sleeps.

This third wave stuff is everywhere, stretching across all denominational barriers. Everybody is either accepting it, or trying to deal with it. It's not of God. I stand with you on that argument. It's stereotyping across the board and I have a problem with. My sermon for Sunday night was "Enemies in the House of God". It focused on the many methods that Satan is infiltrating the modern church. The text is Galatians 2:1-5, expository style.

I showed you that to let you know I'm not just one of those " everything goes" Pentecostals. I am very aware of what's going on in the church and in the world. And also on here. Prayer, and the study of the Word is still the only method I use to get a sermon. No web sites, no books, no magazines. That's the way the early church did it.

zone · Sep 16, 2013

BradC said:

yes you are.

zone · Sep 16, 2013

BradC said:

Zone, You can call or refer to me as 'Red' because I like what the Boston 'Red Sox' are doing in baseball (hottest team in baseball). When baseball ends this year you'll have to stop with the name unless they win the world series and you can call me anything you want. Did you know that God inspired baseball in this country as well as basketball and football? I am not making that up either. I know I would be hard pressed to prove that to you because of your great need for documentation. God saved me as a young man by grace through faith in his Son and the only documentation I can give you is the faith of the son of God who died and gave his life for me and the confession of my heart that believes that he rose from the dead. I was lost but I have been found, was blind but now I see. I was in darkness but I now have been called into his marvellous light. I can't document how that happened because it took place by faith and through faith. It is a mystery of faith.

As far as tongues go in the body of Christ, the only tongues that is needed as God wills it, is for others to hear the gospel or some message and testimony of the gospel of Christ when people are in unbelief or need to hear it in their own language. Other than that, we as believers have the word, the Spirit, the promises of God and the fellowship of other believers who keep us walking by faith in the light making an invisible God visible. Concerning prophecy we have the word of prophecy in the scriptures that has been written and recorded for our profit and we have those who are called by God in the church to give occasional warnings that are needed and isolated to get the attention of some or the many. Do these need to be functioning in the assembly meetings as a practice of faith, NO! but if God wills in isolated instances then we should obey even if it goes against what we have practiced.

Red, could you please tell me:

do you believe in the pretribulation rapture of the church? < false doctrine.

zone · Sep 16, 2013

Stephen63 said:

you will not find people speaking in tongues at; nor promoting or discussing how they speak tongues at; nor claiming to give a prophecy at an LCMS service.

nobody up front testifying to miracle healings; giving words of knowledge, none of that.

looks like LCMS hasn't been slacking or sleeping at all - just carrying on, faithful and steady, generation after generation.

....

we do hear about, and believe prophecies; miraculous languages; miraculous healings; hear words of knowledge; and we do hear directly from God - because the Word of God is taught (Law & Gospel) every single service.

lacking nothing.

Stephen63 · Sep 16, 2013

1still_waters said:

TRUE. Self-made Healers can do nothing. Calling themself a healer is usually the red flag that they are false. True christians call themselves SERVANTS, & walk that talk.

True believers can't do it whenever they want to.
Matthew 13:53-58 (KJV) [SUP]53 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. [SUP]54 [/SUP]And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? [SUP]55 [/SUP]Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? [SUP]56 [/SUP]And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? [SUP]57 [/SUP]And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. [SUP]58 [/SUP]And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Luke 5:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them.
Ecclesiastes 3:3 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

Stephen63 · Sep 16, 2013

Zmouth said:

Many think there not blaspheming the Holy Ghost,......... But they are.

Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

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