Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[homwardbound]

For me it is not the PERSON who does anything, but GOD IN THE PERSON. What we have to know is we are EXACTLY like all the churches Paul ministered too!

If Paul says to Timothy... or to the Corinthians.... or to the Ephesians.... Or to the Thessalonians... God is saying the EXACT SAME THING TO US! God appointed Paul as an apostle to PERFECT THE SAINTS... now if we can only know what a SAINT is, then we already know a bit about what GOD DID IN US TO BE SAINTS...

Here is the thing about the Gospel of God. God has a will, and His will is not only for HIMSELF but for US here on earth as well. His will in heaven is done 100%! There is not a single act done in heaven against God's will. EVERYTHING in heaven is 100% God's will. KNOW THIS and REMEMBER THIS..... God's will is done in heaven, andalso in HIS CHILDREN HERE ON EARTH...

Now what is God's will for HIS people here on earth? One verse, only ONE VERSE is neccesary to show God's WILL... Matthew 5:48.... Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. For ANY person to be perfect, GOD HAS TO BE THE PERFECTION IN HIM.... And that is TRULY PERFECTION here on earth. Just to show how easy that is obtained, remember it is GOD DOING the WORK that perfects us.

Once a group is perfect, do you think there is still arguments in the group? What about differences? If the Son asks the Father to make HIS PEOPLE ... PERFECTLY ONE, AS THEY ARE ONE, do you think there would be any ISMS amongst these people? NOPE!!!!

If God is the ONE in ALL members of HIS Church, there is HEAVEN ON EARTH! Then God's will IS DONE IN THEM AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN... And THAT church is explained in DETAIL in GOD'S Word. IT IS A PERFECT CHURCH, and Paul said what happens in the PERFECT CHURCH... 1 Cor 14.... Oh by the way, no women has EVER spoken in this church! Also no person that does speak in tongues, have EVER spoken in this church, without one not interpreting it. There is ALWAYS ONLY the HOLY SPIRIT that are in 100% control of EVERY WORD and action done in this CHURCH!

Jesus asked in John 17... Father make them perfectly one, God still does that. In God's church is only PERFECTED SAINTS, Eph 4:11 to 13. ALL to the measure and the fulness of Christ. EDIFIED to the BODY and PERFECTLY ONE. GOD is the ONE in them all! There is NOT ONE SINGLE difference from any MEMBER in the BODY of Christ Jesus. It is a PERFECT Body and PERFECT church! Without SPOT OR WRINKLE... Spots being sin, and wrinkles being dissagreement or lack of faith. (Eph 5) They are all in UNITY of FAITH... Eph 4.

How perfect is Father in heaven? This perfect is HIS CHURCH here on earth... EPH 4:.One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God is PERFECT in EVERY person HE LIVES IN, and EVERY PERSON IS PERFECT THAT IS BORN OF GOD... AND SO THE CHURCH OF GOD IS PERFECT AS HE IS, AND HIS WILL IS DONE IN HIS CHURCH AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN....

People JOIN THAT CHURCH! IT IS EASY, ASK GOD THIS.... OUR FATHER WHOM ART IN HEAVEN... LET THOU WILL BE DONE IN ME AS IT IS DONE IN HEAVEN..... AND BELIEVE WHAT YOU PRAY!!!! Now allow God to change you as HE WANTS YOU... EXACTLY LIKE HIS SON!!!!!
AMEN!

Thanks, I would rather walk in God's Spirit than in my own flesh or anyone else's here on earth, thanks

 

[homwardbound]

I see it as we are dependent on God's Spirit to lead us as Christ showed us all during his walk here on earth or we are dependent on self and others here on earth.
I do not see being dependent on both as the way, truth or new life.
I see only being 100% dependent on God the Father, and that as I see it is through the death to me self, the same as Paul sees it. Whether I have tongues, prophesy, healing or any other gift this would be by God and God alone, being 100% dependent on Father through Son Christ.
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[zone]

Does that still small voice qualify as from God in your book or has it ceased because the saints don't need it? Can we depend on that still small voice as being from Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension?

uh...do a study on "small still voice" - it wasn't God 'speaking' in "a small still voice". God doesn't speak until 13b.
ppl using stuff they never bother to check out gets old, Red.
youve had lots of time to do this.

1 Kings 19
The Lord Speaks to Elijah at Horeb
11So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. 13When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

A still small voice - literally, "a sound of soft stillness" - Barnes
a gentle breeze - Clarke
something soft, easy, and musical; the Targum is, the voice of those that praise God in silence - Gill
[Heb. a voice of gentle silence.] דְּמָמָה an onomatopoetic word, is allied to our word dumb - Pulpit
a sweet and gentle gale- Wesley

Does the Spirit search and reveal the deep things of God to our spirit so that we might know the things that are freely given unto us?

this passage is not about you ending up knowing anything.
its about the Spirit interceding on your behalf - there is no speaking; no words involved.
its a groaning (sighing) that baffles words, is unexpressed.

Romans 8:26
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

stenagmos: a groaning
Original Word: στεναγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stenagmos
Phonetic Spelling: (sten-ag-mos')
Short Definition: a groaning
Definition: a groaning, sighing.

Cognate: 4726 stenagmós – groaning (sighing), especially brought on by circumstances creating great pressure. See 4727 (stenazō).

alalétos: inexpressible
Original Word: ἀλάλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: alalétos
Phonetic Spelling: (al-al'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: unutterable, that baffles words
Definition: unutterable, that baffles words, unexpressed.

Prov 1:23 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Is this still a good promise from God or shall we look elsewhere?

so, you are claiming to hear God audibly then. from the woman called Wisdom.
if the Lord is making His words known to you outside whats already been given, you are a prophet.
no clue what Solomon was inspired to write i guess.

An intimate relation subsists between the "Spirit" of Wisdom and her "words," with which it is parallel. The former is the illuminating, invigorating principle which infuses life and power into the "words" of Wisdom, which she has already given, and which are already in our possession. Wisdom stands in the same relation to her words as the Divine Logos does to his utterances, into which he infuses himself. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63. See Delitzsch, Wardlaw, in loc.). - Pulpit.

do you have any other documentation that you hear directly from God outside the word.
post it.

 

[Cobus]

Every person can hear God! Even if you are a false witness against God's HOLY PEOPLE...

Do you want to hear GOD SPEAK? I know how you can.... Even if you are the worst Christian Slayer... God will speak... As He did through ALL HOLY PEOPLE....

Here is the thing Zone and friends still do not get.....

Let us say I am the Holy Person they bring to court for my faith, and they want to NAIL me on FALSE WITNESSES.... Did God not give the ASSURANCE and PROMISE.... FEAR NOT WHEN THEY BRING YOU TO THE MAGISTRATE WHAT YOU SHALL SAY, FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT (GOD) SHALL TEACHYOU WHAT TO SAY RIGHT THERE AND THEN.... GOD WILL DETERMINE THE WORDS NOT YOU!

And that is how you will HEAR GOD'S WORDS.... just like other prophesies... and the WHOLE SCRIPTURE of God.

So did God speak through Paul when he was brought before council? Did God say Paul lived in all good conscience BEFORE GOD!!!! Yes the lord did say that to the WHOLE COUNCIL... THE council that wanted to get rid of Paul heard the WORDS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT Paul's words. God said to the council PAUL LIVED IN ALL GOOD CONSCINCE BEFORE HIM..... I wonder if they believed God? NOPE, just like today, they still would not believe God in the same situation... they did not even believe JESUS!

 

[BradC]

uh...do a study on "small still voice" - it wasn't God 'speaking' in "a small still voice". God doesn't speak until 13b.
ppl using stuff they never bother to check out gets old, Red.
youve had lots of time to do this.

1 Kings 19
The Lord Speaks to Elijah at Horeb
11So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD." And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. 13When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

A still small voice - literally, "a sound of soft stillness" - Barnes
a gentle breeze - Clarke
something soft, easy, and musical; the Targum is, the voice of those that praise God in silence - Gill
[Heb. a voice of gentle silence.] דְּמָמָה an onomatopoetic word, is allied to our word dumb - Pulpit
a sweet and gentle gale- Wesley



this passage is not about you ending up knowing anything.
its about the Spirit interceding on your behalf - there is no speaking; no words involved.
its a groaning (sighing) that baffles words, is unexpressed.

Romans 8:26
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

stenagmos: a groaning
Original Word: στεναγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stenagmos
Phonetic Spelling: (sten-ag-mos')
Short Definition: a groaning
Definition: a groaning, sighing.

Cognate: 4726 stenagmós – groaning (sighing), especially brought on by circumstances creating great pressure. See 4727 (stenazō).

alalétos: inexpressible
Original Word: ἀλάλητος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: alalétos
Phonetic Spelling: (al-al'-ay-tos)
Short Definition: unutterable, that baffles words
Definition: unutterable, that baffles words, unexpressed.



so, you are claiming to hear God audibly then. from the woman called Wisdom.
if the Lord is making His words known to you outside whats already been given, you are a prophet.
no clue what Solomon was inspired to write i guess.

An intimate relation subsists between the "Spirit" of Wisdom and her "words," with which it is parallel. The former is the illuminating, invigorating principle which infuses life and power into the "words" of Wisdom, which she has already given, and which are already in our possession. Wisdom stands in the same relation to her words as the Divine Logos does to his utterances, into which he infuses himself. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63. See Delitzsch, Wardlaw, in loc.). - Pulpit.

do you have any other documentation that you hear directly from God outside the word.
post it.

Your interjecting things that are very presumptuous, as you do so often. Nevertheless you have left out a couple of points concerning the still small voice of 1 Kings 19:12.

The word for 'voice' here and in Gen 3:8 & 10 is the same (qowl or qol) and when you read the account in Genesis it says, 'I heard the voice (qowl) of the Lord in the garden in the cool of the day' & 'I heard thy voice in the garden'. Was this just a sound of frivolity that Adam and the woman heard in the garden? I don't think so. They heard and recognized the voice of the Lord and responded to that voice by hiding. Then the Lord spoke to Adam directly in verse 9. Elijah heard the still small voice, went to the opening of the cave and a voice (qowl) came to him and the Lord spoke to Elijah in 1 Kings 19:13,15. Same voice in all cases.

What did Jesus have to say about voices. First he told Nicodemus in John 3:8, 'The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit'.

In John 10 16,27, 'My sheep hear my voice' and 'a stranger's voice they will not follow' in John 10:5. I don't think we could call a still small voice a strangers voice because it was always followed up with a word from God and that was for their knowing. You might not see it that way but it's there as the written word. I don't think we as believers are any different when it comes to being lead by God through the Spirit with that still small voice. Doesn't the Spirit speaketh expressly to the church and each member of it? BTW - There is no indication of the record of 1 Kings 19:12 of that still small voice being audible or coming from without as opposed to coming from within. You can make that presumption but I won't.

 

[presidente]

Since the purpose of the gifts is edification of the body why would God knowing the church speaks a single language and that the gift of prophecy in that language the words would be understood 100% of the time why then would God use a different language that could not be understood 100% of the time if understanding is the better way?

Do you ask this with an understanding that this is how Paul says the gift works, or are you asking because you don't believe that's how it works?

 

[presidente]

Humor me on this for a moment. How did Katherine Kuhlman even get a foothold in the very denominations that claim to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit? How did they miss that she was false in the first place? If one of the gifts of the Spirit is discernment how is it they didn't catch her?

Way back when, the Charismatic movement was a movement with the Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

 

[SarahM777]

Way back when, the Charismatic movement was a movement with the Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

How does that even begin to answer the question? She was endorsed by the Pentecostals at that time who again said they were Holy Spirit filled and Baptized,with the gifts of the Spirit. So again how did they MISS that she was false if THEY had the gifts of discernment?

 

[SarahM777]

Do you ask this with an understanding that this is how Paul says the gift works, or are you asking because you don't believe that's how it works?

UMMM Didn't Paul also say this about understanding?


1 Corinthians 14

​Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening,encouraging and comfort.4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifiesthemselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build upthe church.

This is Paul writing this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,Paul stresses UNDERSTANDING. So again God wants clarity and understanding so why God go through tongues in a church that speaks a single language instead of PROPHECY which Paul evens says is GREATER then tongues?

 

[notuptome]

You write this to Stephen, but my intention in posting this was not tongues per se, but more generally the concept of a more open meeting that is not 'pastor centered' or 'pulpit centered' in the ministry of the word, and the operation of spiritual gifts in church. Cessationists get hung up on tongues and turn the issue into one of whether tongues has ceased. I can see how that would be a relevant issue for people with that perspective, though.

Why would you want to get away from pastor centered or pulpit centered church services? Because you need to get away from bible centered doctrinal discipleship for your worship to prosper. Saints of God are edified and sanctified through bible preaching through a pastor gifted to the local assembly by God. The apostates want to get rid of bible preaching because they cannot prosper in what they want if Gods word is prospering. You seek teachers that will tickle your ears. There are many who will oblige to fill their pockets.

If the carnal Christian highly prizes speaking in tongues, what does that say of those who don't even prize a gift from God. All Christians should be thankful and prize God's grace and gifts.

Tongues have ceased. Seeking that which is no more is not wise. If God gives you a gift it will be one that will be useful in ministry and evangelism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I think we can agree on disagree
We will come in the end on the same spot (heaven) when we keep reading the word of God, and follow Him.

It is always disappointing that we come to this point. Only one of us is in agreement with Gods word. It's not me that you must agree with but the bible. If I'm wrong you must disagree with me. Amos 3:3 if we are going to walk with the Lord we must agree with Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[zone]

Does that still small voice qualify as from God in your book or has it ceased because the saints don't need it? Can we depend on that still small voice as being from Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension? Does the Spirit search and reveal the deep things of God to our spirit so that we might know the things that are freely given unto us?

Prov 1:23 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Is this still a good promise from God or shall we look elsewhere?

sorry Red....no i didn't. you posted about the small still voice. and the clear implication was in the context of :Re: Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

re - your smart-aleky remarks:

1) Does that still small voice qualify as from God in your book or has it ceased because the saints don't need it

is a misnomer, since it wasn't a voice. and that incident had nothing to do with the saints, aside from us reading about what God did. it tells us about Who He is. it's not about pentecostal tongues or direct revelation.

2) Can we depend on that still small voice as being from Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension

once again - it wasn't a voice. it was another element (like the other elements which had gone before).
so, to be precise, it is not related to "Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension" - because you think that passage in Acts 2 is for today....and that was an experience Elijah had - not you or Benny Hinn.

you're blurring and playing a shell game. sorry

Your interjecting things that are very presumptuous, as you do so often. Nevertheless you have left out a couple of points concerning the still small voice of 1 Kings 19:12.

The word for 'voice' here and in Gen 3:8 & 10 is the same (qowl or qol) and when you read the account in Genesis it says, 'I heard the voice (qowl) of the Lord in the garden in the cool of the day' & 'I heard thy voice in the garden'. Was this just a sound of frivolity that Adam and the woman heard in the garden? I don't think so. They heard and recognized the voice of the Lord and responded to that voice by hiding. Then the Lord spoke to Adam directly in verse 9. Elijah heard the still small voice, went to the opening of the cave and a voice (qowl) came to him and the Lord spoke to Elijah in 1 Kings 19:13,15. Same voice in all cases.

he went to the opening of the cave BECAUSE of what he heard AFTER a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.

which i already posted was NOT God speaking....it is an experience of elements accompanying or representing the LORD:

a great and strong wind; an earthquake; a fire; THEN: the sound of 'a low whisper' - NASB.

a still
dmamah (dem-aw-maw')
quiet -- calm, silence, still.
small
daq (dak)
crushed, i.e. (by implication) small or thin -- dwarf, lean(-fleshed), very little thing, small, thin.
voice
qowl (kole)
from an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound

if you can't see the sequence of things - elements ends with a small (daq: very little thing, small, thin) quiet, calm, silence, still (dmamah) (qowl ) - which means voice OR sound....well

when Elijah heard it (the small, calm, silence, still, sound): in obvious CONTRAST to all the scary things that passed before - he THEN wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

1 Kings 19:12
The LORD Speaks to Elijah
11And he said, “Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.a 13And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

my lexicon for the 1 Kings 19:12 says the small still voice is:

daq: thin, small, fine
Original Word: דָּק
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: daq
Phonetic Spelling: (dak)
Short Definition: thin

qol: sound, voice
Original Word: קוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qol
Phonetic Spelling: (kole)
Short Definition: voice

CONTEXT MY FRIEND.

a-a-a-a-a-and:

Genesis 3:8
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

same thing.....first they hear the SOUND (gol) of the LORD walking in the garden.

qol: sound, voice
Original Word: קוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qol
Phonetic Spelling: (kole)
Short Definition: voice

THEN the LORD calls (qara):

qara: to call, proclaim, read
Original Word: קָרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: qara
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-raw')
Short Definition: call

Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

k?
neither one is said to be hearing God SAY anything to them until He actually speaks. they are hearing sounds related to His Presence.

What did Jesus have to say about voices. First he told Nicodemus in John 3:8, 'The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit'.

oh man.....serious?
He was comparing the wind to the Holy Spirit. which is often done.
but He was actually talking about WIND - "The wind blows where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going."

why did you add (breaths?)

"So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit'' - uh....just like knowing the wind has come and blown becasuse you hear it's sound, but do not know where it came from or where it is going (REAL ACTUALLY WEATHER-TYPE WIND) - SO IT IS (The new birth) IS JUST LIKE THAT (illustration) - "So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit''.

In John 10 16,27, 'My sheep hear my voice' and 'a stranger's voice they will not follow' in John 10:5. I don't think we could call a still small voice a strangers voice because it was always followed up with a word from God and that was for their knowing. You might not see it that way but it's there as the written word. I don't think we as believers are any different when it comes to being lead by God through the Spirit with that still small voice. Doesn't the Spirit speaketh expressly to the church and each member of it? BTW - There is no indication of the record of 1 Kings 19:12 of that still small voice being audible or coming from without as opposed to coming from within. You can make that presumption but I won't.

it certainly didn't come from within Elijah - it was part of God's DISPLAY - in elements.
and it may have been slightly audible, but it wasn't GOD SPEAKING.
He spoke AFTER that.

oh man...you're wearing me down

1) Jesus could say that in Person cuz He was actually there speaking to ppl in Judea - His lost sheep.
2) we know His voice now by reading what He said, and the Holy Spirit confirms that IT IS TRUE.

arga
war ga

 

[notuptome]

To think the perfect Paul is tlaking about is completed Scripture is to completely ignore 1 co 13:13 which clearly explains it...

And lets not forget 1 co 13:1-5 it's definitely talking about love. And why would you base an entire doctrine around 1 Scripture that's definitely poor exposition? And to think that Paul is saying the gifts will cease makes no sense, when a couple verses later he says FORBID NOT TONGUES OR PROPHESY. Yet here you are forbidding it.

Traditions of man. Ugh.

Languages yes charismatic tongues nope! Paul nor the Holy Spirit do not forbid the learning of languages to evangelize. Nor is there a problem with prophecy as a forth telling of scripture. Future telling or revealing new revelation from God is a whole 'nother matter. Men's lusts for glory override good doctrinal understanding. The only thing not complete when Paul wrote this scripture was the NT. The word of God is perfect converting the soul.

Praying in the Spirit builds up the most holy faith. But you don't believe in gifts, so why do you need that? Who needs faith right? I know I do, just today I saw a couple people healed. That's one critical reason why we pray in the Spirit so we can be in alignment with Kingdom of God here on Earth.

Doing the works of Jesus like we're commanded to do.

Do what Jesus told you to do. Go and witness of His ability to save souls from sin. Go testify of how sinners can inherit eternal life. God understands every language known to man. You can pray to Him in any language and He will hear you as long as you are not a sinner for God heareth not sinners.

BTW, if 1 co 13:8 is your cornerstone for no more gifts, notice Paul didn't say anything about healing? Yet he does declare it a gift... you sure you believe all the other gifts are still in operation?

C.

Healing yes healers nope. Go and pray anointing with oil and God will heal. God does use suffering and the suffering of His saints to glorify Him. Paul prayed three times for the thorn in his flesh to be removed and God said it is there because God wanted it there.

Be wise win souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Paul is very clearly stressing that gifts without love have no gain. Anything done without love has no gain. 1 co 13 the entire CHAPTER screams this...

He goes on to say knowledge will pass away... because we will see Him as He sees us. Who? Love Himself. God.

1 co 14 goes on to explain what the gifts look like under the power of love.

Should I do a verse by verse exposition? I don't mind. I speak in tongues, so obviously I've done my homework even going into original Greek. Because I was scared because of Cessationists that I was doing something wrong, but God used it for good to show me the truth and to arm me with plenty of Scripture.

Oh and if I hear false teaches again lol. Jesus defines false teachers as people who say one thing, but do another. Most particularly SHOW NO LOVE. If you don't have love, you don't know God.

Hmm and that dovetails perfectly with 1 co 13 doesn't it.

Stop preaching a Kingdom in word only. We follow a Kingdom of POWER.

The arm of Jehovah is not shortened that He cannot save. There is the power of God in the gospel message which we are to take to the whole world. I'm all for power but it must be Gods power converting the souls of men.

It's funny you brought up Jonathan Edwards, his wife got so blasted by God she shook for days. People around her thought it was the enemy except for the fruit that came out of it. Could not be denied. Ahh the power of God, the Quakers shook under it also. That's why they called em' "Quakers".

C.

Funny you should mention Quakers. President Richard M Nixon was a Quaker. Cussed like a sailor and had no problem compromising the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[BradC]

sorry Red....no i didn't. you posted about the small still voice. and the clear implication was in the context of :Re: Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

re - your smart-aleky remarks:

1) Does that still small voice qualify as from God in your book or has it ceased because the saints don't need it

is a misnomer, since it wasn't a voice. and that incident had nothing to do with the saints, aside from us reading about what God did. it tells us about Who He is. it's not about pentecostal tongues or direct revelation.

2) Can we depend on that still small voice as being from Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension

once again - it wasn't a voice. it was another element (like the other elements which had gone before).
so, to be precise, it is not related to "Jesus who has committed himself to speak to us through the Spirit in the last days since his ascension" - because you think that passage in Acts 2 is for today....and that was an experience Elijah had - not you or Benny Hinn.

you're blurring and playing a shell game. sorry



he went to the opening of the cave BECAUSE of what he heard AFTER a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.

which i already posted was NOT God speaking....it is an experience of elements accompanying or representing the LORD:

a great and strong wind; an earthquake; a fire; THEN: the sound of 'a low whisper' - NASB.

a still
dmamah (dem-aw-maw')
quiet -- calm, silence, still.
small
daq (dak)
crushed, i.e. (by implication) small or thin -- dwarf, lean(-fleshed), very little thing, small, thin.
voice
qowl (kole)
from an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound

if you can't see the sequence of things - elements ends with a small (daq: very little thing, small, thin) quiet, calm, silence, still (dmamah) (qowl ) - which means voice OR sound....well

when Elijah heard it (the small, calm, silence, still, sound): in obvious CONTRAST to all the scary things that passed before - he THEN wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

1 Kings 19:12
The LORD Speaks to Elijah
11And he said, “Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.a 13And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

my lexicon for the 1 Kings 19:12 says the small still voice is:

daq: thin, small, fine
Original Word: דָּק
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: daq
Phonetic Spelling: (dak)
Short Definition: thin

qol: sound, voice
Original Word: קוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qol
Phonetic Spelling: (kole)
Short Definition: voice

CONTEXT MY FRIEND.

a-a-a-a-a-and:

Genesis 3:8
8They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

same thing.....first they hear the SOUND (gol) of the LORD walking in the garden.

qol: sound, voice
Original Word: קוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: qol
Phonetic Spelling: (kole)
Short Definition: voice

THEN the LORD calls (qara):

qara: to call, proclaim, read
Original Word: קָרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: qara
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-raw')
Short Definition: call

Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

k?
neither one is said to be hearing God SAY anything to them until He actually speaks. they are hearing sounds related to His Presence.



oh man.....serious?
He was comparing the wind to the Holy Spirit. which is often done.
but He was actually talking about WIND - "The wind blows where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going."

why did you add (breaths?)

"So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit'' - uh....just like knowing the wind has come and blown becasuse you hear it's sound, but do not know where it came from or where it is going (REAL ACTUALLY WEATHER-TYPE WIND) - SO IT IS (The new birth) IS JUST LIKE THAT (illustration) - "So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit''.



it certainly didn't come from within Elijah - it was part of God's DISPLAY - in elements.
and it may have been slightly audible, but it wasn't GOD SPEAKING.
He spoke AFTER that.

oh man...you're wearing me down

1) Jesus could say that in Person cuz He was actually there speaking to ppl in Judea - His lost sheep.
2) we know His voice now by reading what He said, and the Holy Spirit confirms that IT IS TRUE.

arga
war ga

Your too much and too contrary. I am not a fool about your way of thinking in these matters. Nothing is being taken away, added to or substituted from the written word as you might think. In Gen 3 they heard the voice of the Lord that made a sound in their ears convicting them of their disobedience and they responded by hiding themselves among the trees of the garden in their self conscious nakedness. Oh, that we would be so sensitive in our response to the sound of his voice, that still small voice of conviction, who walks in the garden of His presence. I'll take that still small voice of loving conviction that comes from the presence of God that dwells in us and be thankful that we have a God that walks in the midst of his people. No sensationalism, no emotionalism, no hyper spirituality, just faith in the living God through the breath of his Spirit guiding us into the light of his promises. Having peace that becomes the authority of our understanding, a love that goes beyond knowledge and a joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. That is what the kingdom of God's dear Son is all about and that kingdom of God is within us and not here or there with some kind of sight observation. The kingdom of God is within us as individuals and among us as God's body of elect people and it is all a mystery that you and others can't figure out. Go figure if you must.

 

[Cee]

It's not languages.

No man understands it, that's why there needs to be an interpreter. The gift of tongues does not interpret itself. It is the language of angels, those who speak tongues speak to God, our minds don't even understand it.

It's a prayer language.

Paul states all these things in 1 co 14.

This is why Paul said he would rather speak 5 words of prophesy than 1000 in tongues. This is guideline of love guiding the gifts.

It doesn't mean tongues is wrong, it means that each gift has its place as the Spirit wills and as love leads.

You said we have to disagree with each other to agree with the Lord? But here's what NT Scripture tells us...

1 Thess 5:19 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Do not quench the Spirit. [/FONT]20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Hold fast what is good. Test it yes, but don't worry about the things you don't agree with, seek unity not disunity. We are lead by the Spirit in us, not by continually disagreeing and debating with one another.

It's like eating fish, eat the meat and spit out the bones. When's the last time your mind was changed during a debate? From my limited involvement in these threads, I have yet to see anyone's mind changed. At least not the people who continually post threads and ignore questions.

So you believe in the gift of healing, but not healers. Interesting. So when Jesus told us to go out and heal the sick, He didn't really mean it? And when He told the apostles to teach all He commanded He didn't mean that either? And when He said whosoever believeth on Me, will do the things I did, He didn't mean that?

That's a lot of Scripture that needs to be thrown out to fit a tradition of man. Especially since anyone can see that 1 co 13 and 1 co 14 are talking about love, not completed Scripture.

And without that Scripture there is nothing that indicates prophesy has ceased. Nor tongues, nor prophetic knowledge. I have been out on the street and had prophetic insight on peoples lives, God likes to use this to reveal the secrets of the hearts of men, yes we win souls for Christ with the gifts as well.

And yes, winning souls is critical and so is building up believers. And so is expanding God's Kingdom. The gifts do all these things.

We definitely need more prophesy. I have seen churches with it and without it, and the difference is profound. I understand why Paul said earnest desire all spiritual gifts, especially prophesy.

C.

Languages yes charismatic tongues nope! Paul nor the Holy Spirit do not forbid the learning of languages to evangelize. Nor is there a problem with prophecy as a forth telling of scripture. Future telling or revealing new revelation from God is a whole 'nother matter. Men's lusts for glory override good doctrinal understanding. The only thing not complete when Paul wrote this scripture was the NT. The word of God is perfect converting the soul.

Do what Jesus told you to do. Go and witness of His ability to save souls from sin. Go testify of how sinners can inherit eternal life. God understands every language known to man. You can pray to Him in any language and He will hear you as long as you are not a sinner for God heareth not sinners.

Healing yes healers nope. Go and pray anointing with oil and God will heal. God does use suffering and the suffering of His saints to glorify Him. Paul prayed three times for the thorn in his flesh to be removed and God said it is there because God wanted it there.

Be wise win souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cee]

Let's see what Scripture says...

Acts 2:17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18: EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.

God is pouring out His Spirit on ALL; men and women. And they SHALL prophesy.

C.

 

[Cee]

Healing yes healers nope. Go and pray anointing with oil and God will heal. God does use suffering and the suffering of His saints to glorify Him. Paul prayed three times for the thorn in his flesh to be removed and God said it is there because God wanted it there.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger from Satan. Not God. It was persecution. This article does a better job than I can of explaining it...

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor. 12:7-10)

This thorn in the flesh that Paul mentioned has been used and misused by Christians to justify submitting to nearly any problem that comes along. Satan has twisted this passage of Scripture to deceive many, many people into believing that God would not heal Paul, so how can they expect to be healed? Let us examine this closely and find out exactly what Paul's thorn in the flesh was.

First of all, this "thorn" came because of the abundance of revelations Paul had received. Until a person has an abundance of revelations, similar to what Paul had, he is not going to have a "thorn." That would disqualify just about all of those who have been hiding behind Paul's thorn.

Then, verse 7 says it came lest Paul should be exalted above measure. Traditionally, that has been interpreted to say the thorn was to keep Paul humble. Therefore, God had to be the author of it, because only God would want Paul to be humble. But there is a godly way of being exalted. First Peter 5:6 says, "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." Those who submit (humble) themselves to God will be exalted by God. Paul was not speaking of exalting himself above measure through pride, but rather, the thorn came from Satan to keep Paul from being exalted by God in the eyes of the people. Many more people would have received what Paul preached if everything was always "rosy" for him. But there was this messenger of Satan who always buffeted Paul and scared away the faint-hearted from committing themselves to Jesus, whom Paul preached.

God magnified, or exalted, Joshua in the sight of his people (Josh. 3:7). He continued to do that with the people He used on into the new covenant (Acts 5:13). So, we see that the exalting spoken of is not a negative kind but a godly kind. That just further strengthens the fact that the thorn was not God's doing.

In verse 7, right after the thorn in the flesh is mentioned, there is a phrase set off by commas which says, "The messenger of Satan to buffet me." This is an explanation of what the thorn was. It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as "messenger" here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word "buffet" means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

How did this demonic force continually strike Paul? Traditionally it has been taught that it was with sickness, and the thing that made many accept that is the use of the words "weakness" and "infirmity" in verses 9 and 10. Infirmity definitely does mean sickness and is used that way in 1 Timothy 5:23, but that is not the only meaning of the word. The number two definition is any lack or inadequacy. For instance, Romans 8:26 says, "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities." In this case, the context makes it clear that it is not speaking of sicknesses but rather not knowing what to pray for. Our finite minds are an infirmity, or an inadequacy.

If we look at the context of Paul's thorn in the flesh, we find that infirmity does not mean sickness in 2 Corinthians 12:9 and 10. In 2 Corinthians 11:30, Paul uses the exact terminology of "glorying in infirmities" that is used just a few verses later in speaking about this thorn. In the eleventh chapter he had just finished listing what those infirmities were. In verses 23-29, he lists such things as imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, and stonings; none of these speak of sickness. Verse 27 mentions weakness and painfulness, which some have tried to make mean sickness, but it is just as possible he could have been weary and suffered painfulness from such things as being stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). All these things listed in 2 Corinthians 11 refer to persecutions as infirmities. So, in context, Paul's thorn was a demonic angel or messenger sent by Satan which continually stirred up persecution against him. This is also verified by three Old Testament references (Num. 33:55; Josh. 23:13 and Judg. 2:3), where people are spoken of as being "thorns in your sides" and "thorns in your eyes."

Paul asked the Lord to remove persecution from him, not sickness, and the Lord told him His grace was sufficient. We are not redeemed from persecution, and Paul later stated that when he said in 2 Timothy 3:12, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Most gladly, therefore, he gloried in persecutions, reproaches, necessities, and distresses that the power of Christ might rest upon him (2 Cor. 12:9). The word "glory" is an old English word which means to have dominion over or command. It is used in Exodus 8:9 where Moses told Pharaoh to glory over him, or command him, when to destroy the frogs. So when Paul spoke of glorying in these infirmities or persecutions, he was speaking of victory even in the midst of continual harassment.

In Acts 14:19, Paul was stoned and left for dead, but God raised him up, and the next day he walked at least twenty miles into the next town and started preaching again. The Lord did not stop the persecution, but God's strength was certainly made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9). Can you imagine what those that stoned him must have thought? They could see Paul's humanity in the cuts and bruises, but they could also see the supernatural strength of God flowing through him. "For when I am weak, then am I strong" (verse 10).

There are two other passages of Scripture that those who believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness have tried to use to verify that. One is Galatians 4:13-15. Here Paul says that he preached the Gospel to these Galatians through an infirmity of the flesh, and in verse 15, he makes reference to these people being willing to poke out their own eyes and give them to him. From this, I have heard ministers preach that Paul's thorn was a rare, ancient disease which was characterized by runny, puffy eyes. But let us look at whom Paul was speaking to when he said this. He was writing to the people who lived in the region known as Galatia, which had as its major cities, Derbe, Lystra, and Iconium. The instance we mentioned earlier, where Paul was stoned and left for dead, happened in Lystra, a city of Galatia. The next day Paul walked to Derbe, another city of Galatia, and began preaching unto them. I'm sure he had runny, puffy eyes, along with multiple cuts and bruises, but they were not the result of some disease. They were the result of having just been stoned. He also says in verse 13 that his infirmity was "at the first," which leaves the impression it was only a temporary thing that he recovered from.

The next scripture used to say Paul's thorn was bad eyes is also in Galatians, chapter 6, verse 11. It says, "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." People have said Paul's eyes were so bad that he had to write in large letters, and this is what he was making reference to. That is only a supposition and not a very good one at that. It is a lot more credible to believe that he was simply referring to the long letter he had written to the Galatians.

The reason it is so important to realize that the thorn in the flesh was not something which Jesus died to redeem us from, such as sickness, is so that we won't submit ourselves to these things. James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." We have to resist, or actively fight against, the devil and the things he brings, to see them flee. Satan has used traditional teaching about Paul's thorn to bring many Christians to a place of submitting to him. But, praise God, you shall know the truth and the truth, shall set you free.

 

[zone]

Your too much and too contrary. I am not a fool about your way of thinking in these matters. Nothing is being taken away, added to or substituted from the written word as you might think. In Gen 3 they heard the voice of the Lord that made a sound in their ears convicting them of their disobedience and they responded by hiding themselves among the trees of the garden in their self conscious nakedness.

i'm already tired of you following me around trying to get to me in some way Red. we've done this for years.
i don't like your theology, you don't like mine. leave it alone. please

you're making that up because you have to now.
they hid because they heard the sound of Him walking in the garden....then He called to them AFTER they hid: WHERE ARE YOU.

He was NOT convicting them of their disobedience BEFORE that and the bible doesn't say it. why do you ADD to what it says.

it's a CLEAR representation of HOW God is with us - He knew where they were, and what they had done - He wanted them to confess to Him.

Oh, that we would be so sensitive in our response to the sound of his voice, that still small voice of conviction, who walks in the garden of His presence. I'll take that still small voice of loving conviction that comes from the presence of God that dwells in us and be thankful that we have a God that walks in the midst of his people. No sensationalism, no emotionalism, no hyper spirituality, just faith in the living God through the breath of his Spirit guiding us into the light of his promises. Having peace that becomes the authority of our understanding, a love that goes beyond knowledge and a joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. That is what the kingdom of God's dear Son is all about and that kingdom of God is within us and not here or there with some kind of sight observation. The kingdom of God is within us as individuals and among us as God's body of elect people and it is all a mystery that you and others can't figure out. Go figure if you must.

i already showed you the small still voice isn't what you said it is. go read the jewish interpretations of the hebrew.
it's a sound, not a voice. but hey - if you want to claim you're hearing God's voice directly have at it.

there are no shortage of passages testifying to the Holy Spirit in us.

why don't you GO FIND THEM.

 

[Cee]

Yes God uses persecution. Not sickness. The enemy steals, kills, and destroys. Jesus came to bring abundant life. If you truly believe God uses sickness, then we have no place for doctors or medicine or anything else that takes away from the "glory" of sickness. Ridiculous right?

James 5:14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Notice James said, IF any be sick... today we say, when you are sick... there's a problem there.

C.