THE BRIDE OF CHRIST
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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E
Jerusalem is the name of a city, called the City of God. According to prophesies, Jesus (the messiah) Will rule from this city with a rod of Iron. And all peoples of all nations will come to this city to worship him once a year.
If Jerusalem is a city of worship, and of Gods rule. How can it be the church, even symbolically. It would not fit.
If Jerusalem is a city of worship, and of Gods rule. How can it be the church, even symbolically. It would not fit.
Did you quoted your whole response, if not you should.
Anyway, just to add to your non sense
1) In your response to Gal 4:25-26, you have argued that those O.T believers represents those who are slaves to the law, which by your logic do not belong to the Heavenly Jerusalem…
2) You again argued that those OT. Believers represent the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant, or shall we say the Mosaic Covenant and do not belong to the New Covenant.
Wherein, the new covenant is the Heavenly Jerusalem above which is the Church.
You even noted that the heavenly Jerusalem is allegorized as those free in Christ in the New Covenant, which is the church, and NOT as those (O.T Believers)who are slaves under the law in the Old Covenant.
Anyway, just to add to your non sense
1) In your response to Gal 4:25-26, you have argued that those O.T believers represents those who are slaves to the law, which by your logic do not belong to the Heavenly Jerusalem…
2) You again argued that those OT. Believers represent the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant, or shall we say the Mosaic Covenant and do not belong to the New Covenant.
Wherein, the new covenant is the Heavenly Jerusalem above which is the Church.
You even noted that the heavenly Jerusalem is allegorized as those free in Christ in the New Covenant, which is the church, and NOT as those (O.T Believers)who are slaves under the law in the Old Covenant.
of all those, both OT and NT saints, who are the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29)?
You reason like a Messianic who does not believe all of the NT.
By your logic above and by your continuous argument that:
The Church (N.T believers) = Bride = New Jerusalem,
The Church (N.T believers) = Bride = New Jerusalem,
You reason like a Messianic who does not believe all of the NT, that both OT and NT saints are
in the church, the one olive tree of believing Jews and engrafted Gentiles, whose roots are the
holy patriarchs.
The O.T believers, who were under the Mosaic Covenant, cannot be part of the New Jerusalem.
(e.g, David, Solomon, Joshua, the Prophets etc who were under the Mosaic Covenant)
However, after it was shown to you that the New Jerusalem was a price for the Patriarchs and the Prophets, you have shifted your argument, from your post no 234 page 12 of this thread
See how you shifted from the New Jerusalem as the NT Believers ONLY…to now include BOTH.
(e.g, David, Solomon, Joshua, the Prophets etc who were under the Mosaic Covenant)
However, after it was shown to you that the New Jerusalem was a price for the Patriarchs and the Prophets, you have shifted your argument, from your post no 234 page 12 of this thread
See how you shifted from the New Jerusalem as the NT Believers ONLY…to now include BOTH.
Your argument makes no NT sense, which is a consistent pattern with you.
With all your certain and unequivocal teaching defense…YOU ARE NOT CERTAIN TO YOURSELF.
You are just full of NON SENSE
You are just full of NON SENSE
and is the reason you are confused regarding the meaning of the allegory in Gal 4:24-26.
You will never understand Christian doctrine correctly if you do not believe all of the NT,
but rather divide and separate believing Jews from believing Gentiles in God's one people of all time.
Actually, it just means an assembly. or a gathering together of a group of people for a purpose.
It was used of the assembly gathering together in government terms.
It was also used of Isreal being the ekklesia of God.
and it is used of the church,
It was used of the assembly gathering together in government terms.
It was also used of Isreal being the ekklesia of God.
and it is used of the church,
as an assembly gathered together.
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Jerusalem is the name of a city, called the City of God. According to prophesies, Jesus (the messiah) Will rule from this city with a rod of Iron. And all peoples of all nations will come to this city to worship him once a year.
If Jerusalem is a city of worship, and of Gods rule. How can it be the church, even symbolically. It would not fit.
If Jerusalem is a city of worship, and of Gods rule. How can it be the church, even symbolically. It would not fit.
It's been addressed multiple times.
I guess that depends on one's perspective.
What is a "story" to one is correct interpretation of the allegory to another.
You've lost me again.
Gal 4:25-26 is an allegory of comparison using the two mothers, Hagar and Sarah,
one a slave and the other free, to represent the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant and the
New Covenant in Christ, wherein the Jerusalem that is above represents those who are free in Christ
in the New Covenant, which is with the NT people of God, the church.
I note that the heavenly Jerusalem is allegorized as those free in Christ in the New Covenant,
which is the church, and not as those who are slaves under the law in the Old Covenant.
That is the point of the allegory.
It's not a statement about motherhood, it's an allegorical comparison of slavery and
freedom under the two covenants, using motherhood as the vehicle of allegory to
represent slavery under the law and freedom in Christ.
That's not what the text states. . .the word "spiritual" is not in the Greek.
And your addition of it alters the meaning of the text.
In terms of the allegory, she is our allegorical mother, not our spiritual mother.
It's an allegory, about slavery and freedom, not about motherhood.
And even in the allegory of Gal 4:25-26, the New Jerusalem represents the free in Christ,
which is the church.
And that New Jerusalem is the Bride of the Lamb.
What is a "story" to one is correct interpretation of the allegory to another.
You've lost me again.
Gal 4:25-26 is an allegory of comparison using the two mothers, Hagar and Sarah,
one a slave and the other free, to represent the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant and the
New Covenant in Christ, wherein the Jerusalem that is above represents those who are free in Christ
in the New Covenant, which is with the NT people of God, the church.
I note that the heavenly Jerusalem is allegorized as those free in Christ in the New Covenant,
which is the church, and not as those who are slaves under the law in the Old Covenant.
That is the point of the allegory.
It's not a statement about motherhood, it's an allegorical comparison of slavery and
freedom under the two covenants, using motherhood as the vehicle of allegory to
represent slavery under the law and freedom in Christ.
That's not what the text states. . .the word "spiritual" is not in the Greek.
And your addition of it alters the meaning of the text.
In terms of the allegory, she is our allegorical mother, not our spiritual mother.
It's an allegory, about slavery and freedom, not about motherhood.
And even in the allegory of Gal 4:25-26, the New Jerusalem represents the free in Christ,
which is the church.
And that New Jerusalem is the Bride of the Lamb.
THE CITY OF THE LORD IS NOT THE CHURCH
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Was Isaiah talking about the Church from the above verse?
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
It was established that the Church has not been forsaken nor it has been desolated, I think all will agree that the Church has never been hated as well. Without a doubt and with certainty Isaiah was not talking about the Church.
On the other hand, it was established that Jerusalem was indeed have been forsaken, desolated, it sure received the wrath of God and was hated.
Based on this, Isaiah 60 was talking about Jerusalem.
It was also established that Jerusalem will have a new name and shall be married to her children and now shall be called the City of the Lord.
Isaiah 60, the New Jerusalem, the City of God, the Bride.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
According to the Book of Revelation
The name of the City of God is New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12)
This New Jerusalem is the Bride from Revelation 21
Were Isaiah and John talking of the same Jerusalem?
Here is a comparison of Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21
[TABLE="class: MsoTableGrid"]
[TR]
[TD]Bride Identity[/TD]
[TD]Revelation 21 –City of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isaiah 60-City of the Lord[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Having the glory of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]From ragged to riches
Forsaken to Eternal excellency…[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. [/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]God and Lamb are the temple[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No need of sun and Moon.
The Lamb and God will be the light[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]The saved shall walk in it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Gates will not be shut and Nations will bring glory[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No more abomination[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Was Isaiah talking about the Church from the above verse?
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
It was established that the Church has not been forsaken nor it has been desolated, I think all will agree that the Church has never been hated as well. Without a doubt and with certainty Isaiah was not talking about the Church.
On the other hand, it was established that Jerusalem was indeed have been forsaken, desolated, it sure received the wrath of God and was hated.
Based on this, Isaiah 60 was talking about Jerusalem.
It was also established that Jerusalem will have a new name and shall be married to her children and now shall be called the City of the Lord.
Isaiah 60, the New Jerusalem, the City of God, the Bride.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
According to the Book of Revelation
The name of the City of God is New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12)
This New Jerusalem is the Bride from Revelation 21
Were Isaiah and John talking of the same Jerusalem?
Here is a comparison of Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21
[TABLE="class: MsoTableGrid"]
[TR]
[TD]Bride Identity[/TD]
[TD]Revelation 21 –City of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isaiah 60-City of the Lord[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Having the glory of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]From ragged to riches
Forsaken to Eternal excellency…[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. [/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]God and Lamb are the temple[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No need of sun and Moon.
The Lamb and God will be the light[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]The saved shall walk in it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Gates will not be shut and Nations will bring glory[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No more abomination[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
E
Review the thread.
It's been addressed multiple times.
It's been addressed multiple times.
Just because it has been discussed does not mean it has been resolved. It seems your still discussing it. or I would not have replied to it.
E
THE CITY OF THE LORD IS NOT THE CHURCH
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Was Isaiah talking about the Church from the above verse?
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
It was established that the Church has not been forsaken nor it has been desolated, I think all will agree that the Church has never been hated as well. Without a doubt and with certainty Isaiah was not talking about the Church.
On the other hand, it was established that Jerusalem was indeed have been forsaken, desolated, it sure received the wrath of God and was hated.
Based on this, Isaiah 60 was talking about Jerusalem.
It was also established that Jerusalem will have a new name and shall be married to her children and now shall be called the City of the Lord.
Isaiah 60, the New Jerusalem, the City of God, the Bride.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
According to the Book of Revelation
The name of the City of God is New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12)
This New Jerusalem is the Bride from Revelation 21
Were Isaiah and John talking of the same Jerusalem?
Here is a comparison of Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21
[TABLE="class: MsoTableGrid"]
[TR]
[TD]Bride Identity[/TD]
[TD]Revelation 21 –City of God[/TD]
[TD]Isaiah 60-City of the Lord[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Having the glory of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]From ragged to riches
Forsaken to Eternal excellency…[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. [/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]God and Lamb are the temple[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No need of sun and Moon.
The Lamb and God will be the light[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]The saved shall walk in it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Gates will not be shut and Nations will bring glory[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No more abomination[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Was Isaiah talking about the Church from the above verse?
Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
It was established that the Church has not been forsaken nor it has been desolated, I think all will agree that the Church has never been hated as well. Without a doubt and with certainty Isaiah was not talking about the Church.
On the other hand, it was established that Jerusalem was indeed have been forsaken, desolated, it sure received the wrath of God and was hated.
Based on this, Isaiah 60 was talking about Jerusalem.
It was also established that Jerusalem will have a new name and shall be married to her children and now shall be called the City of the Lord.
Isaiah 60, the New Jerusalem, the City of God, the Bride.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
According to the Book of Revelation
The name of the City of God is New Jerusalem (Rev 3:12)
This New Jerusalem is the Bride from Revelation 21
Were Isaiah and John talking of the same Jerusalem?
Here is a comparison of Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21
[TABLE="class: MsoTableGrid"]
[TR]
[TD]Bride Identity[/TD]
[TD]Revelation 21 –City of God[/TD]
[TD]Isaiah 60-City of the Lord[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Having the glory of God[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]From ragged to riches
Forsaken to Eternal excellency…[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. [/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]God and Lamb are the temple[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No need of sun and Moon.
The Lamb and God will be the light[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Isa 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]The saved shall walk in it[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Gates will not be shut and Nations will bring glory[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]No more abomination[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/TD]
[TD="width: 205, bgcolor: transparent"]Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
I agree that they talk of Jerusalem.
I disagree they talk about the same city though.
Is is talking about the millennial city.
John is talking about the future new city.
And? I am not allowed to state my opinion? And discuss this? You sometimes worry me sis. I pray you would not say something like this to a new believer coming to you for advice or knowledge. That would be sad!
Just because it has been discussed does not mean it has been resolved. It seems your still discussing it. or I would not have replied to it.
Just because it has been discussed does not mean it has been resolved. It seems your still discussing it. or I would not have replied to it.
E
Just sayin' it would all be a repeat. . .
lol. I responded to you post of just a few posts ago. so how could it be a repeat. it is obvious from th eposts that people have not come to a consensous or an agreement, or you would not still be discussing it.
I read your posts. I disagree, and I placed my belief and why.
if you do not want to comment, feel free. but show me some courtesy..
whats wrong. we should not suffer some for a new person in the discussion?
I agree that they talk of Jerusalem.
I disagree they talk about the same city though.
Is is talking about the millennial city.
John is talking about the future new city.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying
was it the same?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Hope this will convince you...
E
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying
was it the same?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Hope this will convince you...
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying
was it the same?
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Hope this will convince you...
THE CITY OF THE LORD IS NOT THE CHURCH
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
does this look like the jerusalem in heaven?
Is 60:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Foreigners will build up your walls, And their kings will minister to you; For in My wrath I struck you, And in My favor I have had compassion on you.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“Your gates will be open continually; They will not be closed day or night, So that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations,With their kings led in procession.
[SUP] 12 [/SUP]“For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.
These things will not happen in heaven. This speaks of the future millennial reign here on this earth.
Hope this will convince you!
Let your own post answer you elin...from post no 91 of page 5 of this thread.
Covenants are Old (slavery to law) and New (freedom in Christ).
Earthly Jerusalem represents those under the old covenant.
Jerusalem that is above represents those under the new covenant.
The church is the union of the former OT people of God with the NT people of God,
in the one people of God, who are all in Christ, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You will never understand Christian doctrine correctly if you do not believe all of the NT,
but rather divide and separate believing Jews from believing Gentiles in God's one people
of all time, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You must stop dividing and separating what God has joined; i.e., OT and NT saints in the church,
the one people of God for all time and eternity.
You used Isa 60 in your example.
[/COLOR]
does this look like the jerusalem in heaven?
Is 60:
[/SIZE][/FONT][SUP]10 [/SUP]“Foreigners will build up your walls, And their kings will minister to you; For in My wrath I struck you, And in My favor I have had compassion on you.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“Your gates will be open continually; They will not be closed day or night, So that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations,With their kings led in procession.
[SUP] 12 [/SUP]“For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.
These things will not happen in heaven. This speaks of the future millennial reign here on this earth.
Hope this will convince you!
[/COLOR]
does this look like the jerusalem in heaven?
Is 60:
[/SIZE][/FONT][SUP]10 [/SUP]“Foreigners will build up your walls, And their kings will minister to you; For in My wrath I struck you, And in My favor I have had compassion on you.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“Your gates will be open continually; They will not be closed day or night, So that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations,With their kings led in procession.
[SUP] 12 [/SUP]“For the nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish, And the nations will be utterly ruined.
These things will not happen in heaven. This speaks of the future millennial reign here on this earth.
Hope this will convince you!
Zec 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The new Jerusalem will come down from heaven right...
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THE CITY OF THE LORD IS NOT THE CHURCH
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
The above description gave us enough information to say with certainty that Both Isaiah and John were talking of the same City, The same Jerusalem and the same Bride.
and none of which is based in anything certain in NT teaching.
This is just more Messianic reasoning which does not believe all of the NT
and, therefore, is not qualified to treat correctly anything relating to the NT.
lol. I responded to you post of just a few posts ago. so how could it be a repeat. it is obvious from th eposts that people have not come to a consensous or an agreement, or you would not still be discussing it.
I read your posts. I disagree, and I placed my belief and why.
Hello there dcontroversial,
The following is a quotation from a man called Dr. R.A. Hadden, on this subject:-
'It is assumed almost universally that the Church of the present dispensation is at once the, 'Body of Christ' and 'the Bride'....
Traditional theology, unscriptural hymnology, amazing disregard for correct interpretation, intolerant zeal for dogmatic human opinions together with careless defective instruction, have united for generations in perpetuating a phase of teaching possessing no foundation in or authority from Holy Scripture and perpetrating a system that plunges multitudes of believers in dire confusion concerning the plan, purpose and programme of God for 'the Church which is His Body' as distinct from the Divine purpose concerning another out-calling known as 'the Bride, the Lamb's wife'.'
Also, Sir Robert Anderson wrote:-
'Is the Church the Bride of Christ? Let us begin by correcting our terminology. In the Patmos visions we read of 'The Bride, the Lamb's wife', but 'the Bride of Christ' is unknown to Scripture ... With the close of the ministry of John the Baptist's ministry, both the Bride and the Lamb disappear from the New Testament until we reach the Patmos visions. In Revelation 21, the angel summed John to behold 'the Bride' the Lamb's wife, and showed him 'the Holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God'. The twelve gates of the city bear the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel, and on the twelve foundations are 'the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb' ... it is the city for which Abraham looked. ... The apostles of 'the Bride' are not the apostles who were given after the Ascension for the building up of 'the Body of Christ' - the apostles of this present dispensation, chief among whom was Paul. They are the twelve apostles of the Lord's earthly ministry to Israel, who shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel' (Matt. 19:28).
As a member of the Church which is His Body (Eph.1:22,23), my hope is not that of 'the Bride', or my future destination 'the New Jerusalem'; for as a member of His Body, I have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, and that is where they will be enjoyed to the full. Praise God!
No, the Church which is His Body, is the perfect MAN (or 'husband')
The company which comprise the Bride is quite another.
I hope this promotes further 'thought', dcontrovercial.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head
Chris
The following is a quotation from a man called Dr. R.A. Hadden, on this subject:-
'It is assumed almost universally that the Church of the present dispensation is at once the, 'Body of Christ' and 'the Bride'....
Traditional theology, unscriptural hymnology, amazing disregard for correct interpretation, intolerant zeal for dogmatic human opinions together with careless defective instruction, have united for generations in perpetuating a phase of teaching possessing no foundation in or authority from Holy Scripture and perpetrating a system that plunges multitudes of believers in dire confusion concerning the plan, purpose and programme of God for 'the Church which is His Body' as distinct from the Divine purpose concerning another out-calling known as 'the Bride, the Lamb's wife'.'
Also, Sir Robert Anderson wrote:-
'Is the Church the Bride of Christ? Let us begin by correcting our terminology. In the Patmos visions we read of 'The Bride, the Lamb's wife', but 'the Bride of Christ' is unknown to Scripture ... With the close of the ministry of John the Baptist's ministry, both the Bride and the Lamb disappear from the New Testament until we reach the Patmos visions. In Revelation 21, the angel summed John to behold 'the Bride' the Lamb's wife, and showed him 'the Holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God'. The twelve gates of the city bear the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel, and on the twelve foundations are 'the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb' ... it is the city for which Abraham looked. ... The apostles of 'the Bride' are not the apostles who were given after the Ascension for the building up of 'the Body of Christ' - the apostles of this present dispensation, chief among whom was Paul. They are the twelve apostles of the Lord's earthly ministry to Israel, who shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel' (Matt. 19:28).
As a member of the Church which is His Body (Eph.1:22,23), my hope is not that of 'the Bride', or my future destination 'the New Jerusalem'; for as a member of His Body, I have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, and that is where they will be enjoyed to the full. Praise God!
No, the Church which is His Body, is the perfect MAN (or 'husband')
The company which comprise the Bride is quite another.
I hope this promotes further 'thought', dcontrovercial.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head
Chris
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Okay, you're confusing separate covenants/cities with united peoples in the allegory of Gal 4:21-27.
Covenants are Old (slavery to law) and New (freedom in Christ).
Earthly Jerusalem represents those under the old covenant.
Jerusalem that is above represents those under the new covenant.
The church is the union of the former OT people of God with the NT people of God,
in the one people of God, who are all in Christ, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You will never understand Christian doctrine correctly if you do not believe all of the NT,
but rather divide and separate believing Jews from believing Gentiles in God's one people
of all time, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You must stop dividing and separating what God has joined; i.e., OT and NT saints in the church,
the one people of God for all time and eternity.
Covenants are Old (slavery to law) and New (freedom in Christ).
Earthly Jerusalem represents those under the old covenant.
Jerusalem that is above represents those under the new covenant.
The church is the union of the former OT people of God with the NT people of God,
in the one people of God, who are all in Christ, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You will never understand Christian doctrine correctly if you do not believe all of the NT,
but rather divide and separate believing Jews from believing Gentiles in God's one people
of all time, the true seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).
You must stop dividing and separating what God has joined; i.e., OT and NT saints in the church,
the one people of God for all time and eternity.
E
I also used Isa 62 in previous post.
well lets look at your post here..
Zec 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
so we are going to need rain in heaven?
and we will be punished in heaven? because we can still sin??
Zec 14:18
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This is tallking abou tthe heavenly jerusalem?? How is it so>?
Zec 14:19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
and this is heaven?
The new Jerusalem will come down from heaven right...
yes, but after all the things spoken in isa 60 and the passage you just posted have already taken place.
do you see it yet?