God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself
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If millerites believe that Christ is not God how do they escape that the Bible says when Christ comes He will be from everlasting to everlasting which means He will have no beginning,that the Son shall be called the mighty God,the everlasting Father,He is God manifest in the flesh,and God said that one day He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them who is Jesus.
According to Millerite doctrine, Christ is from everlasting to everlasting and is called Wonderful Counselor (i.e, the Holy Spirit), Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace because He is God's Representative. So, when Christ said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father," Christ didn't mean there is only one divine Being or that He and the Father are indistinguishable. Christ meant that He is a Perfect Representative of the Father. Yes, Christ is God manifest in the flesh but is not perceived correctly by Trinitarians.
Will you believe that Wikipedia got the History right?
Miller made predictions that the Second Coming of Christ would happen in 1844, JUST LIKE HAROLD CAMPING DID. And what does GOD say we are to do with a Prophet, whose prophecies do not come true?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the prophet who dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP] You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the LORD has not spoken?’
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When a prophet speaks in the LORD’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Now in the last very part of verse 22 that I underlined, that word afraid is:
[/quote]Hebrew NASB Number: 1481c
Hebrew Word: [FONT="]גּוּר[/FONT]
Transliterated Word: gur (158d)
Root: a prim. root;
Definition: to dread:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
afraid (2),
dreaded (1),
fear (4),
feared (1),
stand in awe (2).
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.[/quote]
If you continue to follow a proven false prophet's teachings, are you not still "standing in awe" of him? And how do you "put to death" the teachings of a proven false prophet? You stop following his teachings.
William Miller (February 15, 1782 – December 20, 1849) was a Baptist preacher, from the United States, who is credited with beginning the mid-nineteenth century North American religious movement that was known as the Millerites. After his prophetic interpretations did not happen as he expected, new heirs of his message emerged, including Seventh-day Adventists and Advent Christians.
. . . Further, Miller became convinced that the 2,300 day period started in 457 B.C.with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by Artaxerxes I of Persia. Simple calculation then revealed that this period would end in 1843. Miller records, "I was thus brought... to the solemn conclusion, that in about twenty-five years from that time 1818 all the affairs of our present state would be wound up."Although Miller was convinced of his calculations by 1818, he continued to study privately until 1823 to ensure the correctness of his interpretation. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15: "I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,--on or before 1843." Miller did not, however, begin his public lecturing until the first Sunday in August 1831 in the town of Dresden.
In 1832 Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph, a Baptist newspaper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public's response: "I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views; and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject." In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a 64 page tract with the lengthy title: Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the Year 1844: Exhibited in a Course of Lectures. . . .
William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
. . . Further, Miller became convinced that the 2,300 day period started in 457 B.C.with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by Artaxerxes I of Persia. Simple calculation then revealed that this period would end in 1843. Miller records, "I was thus brought... to the solemn conclusion, that in about twenty-five years from that time 1818 all the affairs of our present state would be wound up."Although Miller was convinced of his calculations by 1818, he continued to study privately until 1823 to ensure the correctness of his interpretation. In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15: "I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,--on or before 1843." Miller did not, however, begin his public lecturing until the first Sunday in August 1831 in the town of Dresden.
In 1832 Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph, a Baptist newspaper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public's response: "I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views; and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject." In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a 64 page tract with the lengthy title: Evidence from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ, about the Year 1844: Exhibited in a Course of Lectures. . . .
William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Miller made predictions that the Second Coming of Christ would happen in 1844, JUST LIKE HAROLD CAMPING DID. And what does GOD say we are to do with a Prophet, whose prophecies do not come true?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But the prophet who dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’
[SUP]21 [/SUP] You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the LORD has not spoken?’
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When a prophet speaks in the LORD’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Now in the last very part of verse 22 that I underlined, that word afraid is:
[/quote]Hebrew NASB Number: 1481c
Hebrew Word: [FONT="]גּוּר[/FONT]
Transliterated Word: gur (158d)
Root: a prim. root;
Definition: to dread:--
List of English Words and Number of Times Used
afraid (2),
dreaded (1),
fear (4),
feared (1),
stand in awe (2).
New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.[/quote]
If you continue to follow a proven false prophet's teachings, are you not still "standing in awe" of him? And how do you "put to death" the teachings of a proven false prophet? You stop following his teachings.
In no way do the Millerites of today believe that the world ended in 1843 or 1844. To put it simply, we believe that William Miller has been vindicated in interpreting Daniel 8:14 as pointing to the end of the world after 2300 years just as Jesus Christ has been vindicated in interpreting the book of Daniel to imply for Christ's time in the first century, “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” (Matthew 24:34).
You did judge Cantor's mathematics, all elementary mainstream stuff today, as an error. However, all undergraduate level mathematics students know that you are greatly deceived because it is now an uncontested fact among educated persons that all infinities have a rank in a hierarchy of infinities. Millerites today simply respect Cantor's revelation that the Father has the rank of the greatest infinity.
Making one false prophecy, means he does not speak for GOD, and therefore he is a false prophet. And you still follow him and put him up on a pedestal?
Before you answer that, REMEMBER, you are the one that said: "My joy is Christ commending me for putting false teachers to the test and proving that they are liars." {ref: your post #185}
Before you answer that, REMEMBER, you are the one that said: "My joy is Christ commending me for putting false teachers to the test and proving that they are liars." {ref: your post #185}
Daniel 8:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."
What part of the Jewish expression "evenings and mornings" that means "COMPLETE 24 hour periods", do you not understand?
The prophecy was fulfilled with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, after the Babylonian captivity.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."
What part of the Jewish expression "evenings and mornings" that means "COMPLETE 24 hour periods", do you not understand?
The prophecy was fulfilled with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, after the Babylonian captivity.
Who are you condemning here? William Miller or Jesus Christ? Both are condemned for making false prophecies. I put both of them in the same boat. The Millerite defense of both William Miller and Christ is that they both interpreted the book of Daniel correctly. The issue is that William Miller didn't understand that the prophecies in the book of Daniel are highly conditional but that Jesus Christ did, which is evidenced by the fact that Christ taught the main prophetic variations in Daniel's two scenario scheme.
The Millerite interpretation of Scripture is that the Holy Spirit teaches on all things.
John 14
25 These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
The evidence that they are right and you are wrong is that they were given the answers to the greatest theological riddles in book of Daniel and Revelation and that you don't even know what you're talking about.
John 14
25 These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
The evidence that they are right and you are wrong is that they were given the answers to the greatest theological riddles in book of Daniel and Revelation and that you don't even know what you're talking about.
REALLY?
A proven false prophet, and still with a straight face, you lift him up and say, "William Miller was just a mighty servant of God".
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the LORD has not spoken?’
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When a prophet speaks in the LORD’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
I repeat, a proven false prophet!
A proven false prophet, and still with a straight face, you lift him up and say, "William Miller was just a mighty servant of God".
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the LORD has not spoken?’
[SUP]22 [/SUP] When a prophet speaks in the LORD’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
I repeat, a proven false prophet!
Now that explains a great deal to us about your false beliefs. You have never come to KNOW Jesus Christ spiritually in your heart. You only know about him, which even the demons have that kind of knowledge. You need to be convicted in your heart of your utter sinfulness, like all of us, mourn over your sinfulness and cry out to HIM for forgiveness; while out of Love for JESUS CHRIST it brings you to willingly show that Love for HIM by surrendering control of your life to HIM as your Master and LORD. Then and only then will you Hear His voice and the TRUTH as you read the Scriptures with born again spiritual ears.
Our LORD, Jesus Christ is PURE TRUTH, because He is GOD in the flesh.
NO prophecy He ever spoke will ever be false, because HE IS TRUTH.
Every time you think you found a failed prophecy or contradiction by Christ,
it is you who made an error in interpretation.
John 14:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
Romans 1:21-25 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
. . .
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Our LORD, Jesus Christ is PURE TRUTH, because He is GOD in the flesh.
NO prophecy He ever spoke will ever be false, because HE IS TRUTH.
Every time you think you found a failed prophecy or contradiction by Christ,
it is you who made an error in interpretation.
John 14:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
John 14:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Colossians 1:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
Romans 1:21-25 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
. . .
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
I'm referring to those who are respected in academia, whose job is scholarship, not TV and radio personalities or Zionist trumpeters that survive by peddling easily believable but inaccurate popularizations for the gullible masses.
If you care to examine the best scholarship of mainstream Christianity, begin with the Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Delitzsch. It asserts truthfully that "The interpretation of the period of the time, 2300 evening-mornings, named by the angel is beset with difficulty." The insurmountable problem is the obvious conflict with history. "According to 1 Macc. i. 54, 59, cf. iv. 52, the desolation of the sanctuary by the worship of idols under Antiochus Epiphanes lasted not longer than three years and ten days."
Naturally, I prefer to cite Jesus as the indisputable Lord and true authority on the profanation of the temple in Daniel, and He interpreted the abomination of desolation as an event in the future, not in the past. Matthew 24:15.
If you care to examine the best scholarship of mainstream Christianity, begin with the Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Delitzsch. It asserts truthfully that "The interpretation of the period of the time, 2300 evening-mornings, named by the angel is beset with difficulty." The insurmountable problem is the obvious conflict with history. "According to 1 Macc. i. 54, 59, cf. iv. 52, the desolation of the sanctuary by the worship of idols under Antiochus Epiphanes lasted not longer than three years and ten days."
Naturally, I prefer to cite Jesus as the indisputable Lord and true authority on the profanation of the temple in Daniel, and He interpreted the abomination of desolation as an event in the future, not in the past. Matthew 24:15.
you need to look up 'historical parallels to Biblical types'.
the idea of a 'type' is very present in Scripture.
Antiochus Epiphanes was a type for the 'man of sin' and the destruction and abomination he caused was a type as well.
A parallel type occurred in 70 ad.
the truth is, even the Dome of the Rock is an abomination that has left the Temple Mount desolate (in terms of there being no Holy Temple there) so it is a type (or the real deal by some allegorical interpreters.)
Christ didn't prophecy only of the destruction in 70ad, but also the one still future.
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I am not sure how to approach you to lead you from error. You assume that others are not listening, yet I am. I am simply disagreeing.
We don't hold the same authority.
You accept modern prophecies as authorities.
I cannot accept them as anything until I've tested them fully. If any error is found, then the whole is thrown out. There is too much Truth packed into the Word to be looking for scraps of truth in the rubble of men's thoughts.
the idea of a 'type' is very present in Scripture.
Antiochus Epiphanes was a type for the 'man of sin' and the destruction and abomination he caused was a type as well.
A parallel type occurred in 70 ad.
the truth is, even the Dome of the Rock is an abomination that has left the Temple Mount desolate (in terms of there being no Holy Temple there) so it is a type (or the real deal by some allegorical interpreters.)
Christ didn't prophecy only of the destruction in 70ad, but also the one still future.
----------
I am not sure how to approach you to lead you from error. You assume that others are not listening, yet I am. I am simply disagreeing.
We don't hold the same authority.
You accept modern prophecies as authorities.
I cannot accept them as anything until I've tested them fully. If any error is found, then the whole is thrown out. There is too much Truth packed into the Word to be looking for scraps of truth in the rubble of men's thoughts.
For starters, let's just stick to the words of the text and ask what they mean according to grammatical-historical exegesis. Here is my argument that following such a procedure will obviously produce a respectable interpretation.
DANIEL 2
“There is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the days to come. Your dream and the vision that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these: As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind” (2:28-30 NIV).
DANIEL 8
“And it came about when I, Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man. And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, ‘Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision’ ” (8:16). ... “Son of man, understand that...” (8:17). “And he said, ‘Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur...’ (8:19).
DANIEL 9
“While I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. And he gave me instruction and talked with me, and said, ‘O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision’ ” (9:21-23).
DANIEL 10
“In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzer). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in vision” (10:1 NIV).
“Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future” (10:14).
DANIEL 2
“There is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the days to come. Your dream and the vision that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these: As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind” (2:28-30 NIV).
DANIEL 8
“And it came about when I, Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man. And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, ‘Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision’ ” (8:16). ... “Son of man, understand that...” (8:17). “And he said, ‘Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur...’ (8:19).
DANIEL 9
“While I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. And he gave me instruction and talked with me, and said, ‘O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision’ ” (9:21-23).
DANIEL 10
“In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzer). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in vision” (10:1 NIV).
“Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future” (10:14).