God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself

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VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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The Old Hermet taught me an amazing lesson. Trinitarians start with fantasy and then superimpose their superstitions into the meaning of words. And it took me a long time to figure that out. It's all very clear now. I started with an extraordinarily clear exposition on God's word. Then, repeatedly, the enemies of truth proved themselves to be too dishonest to face that truth directly. All they did was rehearse their traditions and in their refusal to provide a Biblical answer, they then tried to derail this thread by going off-topic.
Remember you have been made accountable for the TRUTH:


Romans 1:20-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, {Jesus Christ is the Creator}
[SUP]21 [/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools,
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I'm referring to those who are respected in academia, whose job is scholarship, not TV and radio personalities or Zionist trumpeters that survive by peddling easily believable but inaccurate popularizations for the gullible masses.

If you care to examine the best scholarship of mainstream Christianity, begin with the Commentary on the Old Testament by Keil and Delitzsch. It asserts truthfully that "The interpretation of the period of the time, 2300 evening-mornings, named by the angel is beset with difficulty." The insurmountable problem is the obvious conflict with history. "According to 1 Macc. i. 54, 59, cf. iv. 52, the desolation of the sanctuary by the worship of idols under Antiochus Epiphanes lasted not longer than three years and ten days."

Naturally, I prefer to cite Jesus as the indisputable Lord and true authority on the profanation of the temple in Daniel, and He interpreted the abomination of desolation as an event in the future, not in the past. Matthew 24:15.
The quotes I posted included the one from Dallas Theological Seminary,

Dr. John MacArthur is President of the Master's College and Seminary,

The Believers Commentary by William MacDonald and Arthur L. Farstad has authors with equally high acedemic backgrounds:

MacDonald has, for more than forty years, spoken plainly and written directly about the key issues of Christianity. His more than sixty works published in North America are characterized by a clarity and economy of words that only comes by a major time investment in the Word of God. He is presently involved in a writing and preaching ministry.

Arthur L. Farstad served as the Executive Editor of the New King James translation of the Bible. Dr. Farstad was a well-respected Greek scholar and theologian having taught at Dallas Theological Seminary in Greek studies. In addition to the NKJV, he served at consulting editor for the New Scofield Study Bible and co-editor of The New Greek Testament According to the Majority Text and served as Editor for the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society . Dr. Farstad went to be with our Lord in 1998.

Still want more to proof that your false prophet was wrong about Dan. 8:14 too:

Albert Barnes - was an American theologian, born in Rome, New York. He graduated from Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, in 1820, and from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1823. Barnes was ordained as a Presbyterian minister
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Unto two thousand and three hundred days - Margin, evening, morning. So the Hebrew, בקר ערב‛ereb boqer So the Latin Vulgate, ad vesperam et mane. And so Theodotion - ἔως ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωΐ̀heōs hesperas kai prōi - “to the evening and morning.” The language here is evidently what was derived from Gen. i., or which was common among the Hebrews, to speak of the “evening and the morning” as constituting a day. There can be no doubt, however, that a day is intended by this, for this is the fair and obvious interpretation. The Greeks were accustomed to denote the period of a day in the same manner by the word νυχθήμερον nuchthēmeron (see 2 Corinthians 11:25), in order more emphatically to designate one complete day.


Sorry, but I just lost interest in digging up more proof for you, as it appears you have already hardened your heart against the TRUTH.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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I just lost interest in digging up more proof for you, as it appears you have already hardened your heart against the TRUTH.
I accept grammatical-historical exegesis as a valid method for arriving at the correct meaning of Daniel. Too bad that you don't know anyone that is willing to interpret the book of Daniel through that principle.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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Here we are, in the same place, after going in a complete circle. The opening post shows how devastating it is to tradition if we interpret Scripture in accordance to what the words of Scripture actually mean.

“The aim of the grammatico-historical method is to determine the meaning required of Scripture by the laws of grammar and the facts of history. The grammatical meaning is the simple, direct, plain, ordinary, and literal sense of the phrases, clauses, and sentences. The historical meaning is that sense which is demanded by a careful consideration of the time and circumstances in which the author wrote. It is the specific meaning which an author’s words require when the historical context and background are taken into account. Thus, the grand object of grammatical and historical interpretation is to ascertain the specific usage of words as employed by an individual writer as prevalent in a particular age.” — (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Toward An Exegetical Theology, p. 88).

Isn't it obvious that the book of Daniel itself endorses this method?

DANIEL 2
“There is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the days to come. Your dream and the vision that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these: As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind” (2:28-30 NIV).

DANIEL 8
“And it came about when I, Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man. And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, ‘Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision’ ” (8:16). ... “Son of man, understand that...” (8:17). “And he said, ‘Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur...’ (8:19).

DANIEL 9
“While I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. And he gave me instruction and talked with me, and said, ‘O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision’ ” (9:21-23).

DANIEL 10
“In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzer). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in vision” (10:1 NIV).

“Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future” (10:14).


Here is the proof:

Since the angel Gabriel was given a divine command to make Daniel understand the vision (8:16), we expect the angel-interpreter to have faithfully executed that command. It follows immediately therefore that the vision was explained to Daniel so that he might understand it. Hence, the very words and phrases employed were comprehensible terms meaningfully arranged and are to be accepted as Daniel understood them. Thus, we are to seek an understanding of the prophecy from Daniel’s perspective in history and not from a stand-point in the twenty-first century. We are to assume no more than Daniel could have known.

So why didn't these deceivers try to argue against reading Scripture for what it actually says at the very beginning of this debate and save everyone time? Obviously, their method is to encourage everyone in joining the mainstream if that will work. Then they become an intimidating, angry mob. They don't have even one respectable argument to share. All they have to show is righteous indignation. But it's all deceit on their part.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I accept grammatical-historical exegesis as a valid method for arriving at the correct meaning of Daniel. Too bad that you don't know anyone that is willing to interpret the book of Daniel through that principle.

Now I really do not think you are telling the truth, because that is what Dr. John MacArthur and Dallas Theological Seminary are all about. I think you are playing a game, poking at our beliefs, which are founded in Scriputures that you do not want to believe they mean what they say. Well, I don't play those kind of games, I just believe in being able to support what I believe biblically.

BUT just in the remote case that you will accept the word of one who is skilled in grammatical-historical exegesis, I will give you a link to a one hour sermon to listen to. Do I think you will actually listen to it? NO, because I think you only said that in a vain attempt to white-wash your dark theology. But Praise the LORD, others who are just reading this post will listen to it:

Dr. John MacArthur - False Messiahs - Part 3, Daniel 8:9-14, 20
False Messiahs, Part 3
 
Jun 22, 2014
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I will give you a link to a one hour sermon to listen to.
Dr. John MacArthur - False Messiahs - Part 3, Daniel 8:9-14, 20
False Messiahs, Part 3
Even the title of the message is an error. Daniel 8:9-14, 20 has nothing to do with false messiahs.

Grammatical-historical exegesis has to do with what Daniel 8:9-14, 20 should have meant to Daniel.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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Now I really do not think you are telling the truth, because that is what Dr. John MacArthur and Dallas Theological Seminary are all about.
Then you obviously don't understand the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis. I started to listen to MacArthur's sermon only to see MacArthur in the first minute or so revealing his violent distortion of the grammatical-historical method.

"And you will recall that, as it is outlined in the Book of Daniel, both through some visions that came to Nebuchadnezzar and some visions that came to Daniel, there will be four great world empires until the time of Christ. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek, and the Roman. And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end."

MacArthur's interpretation is an absurd lie. There is nothing in the book of Daniel about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence of the Roman Empire. It is impossible for Daniel to have understood his dreams and visions in that way.
 

SolidGround

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Jan 15, 2014
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Then you obviously don't understand the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis. I started to listen to MacArthur's sermon only to see MacArthur in the first minute or so revealing his violent distortion of the grammatical-historical method.

"And you will recall that, as it is outlined in the Book of Daniel, both through some visions that came to Nebuchadnezzar and some visions that came to Daniel, there will be four great world empires until the time of Christ. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek, and the Roman. And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end."

MacArthur's interpretation is an absurd lie. There is nothing in the book of Daniel about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence of the Roman Empire. It is impossible for Daniel to have understood his dreams and visions in that way.
So your idea of 'historical' means "as the people would understand, who original heard the prophecy".
Then you don't believe that the Ptolemys were prophecies about in Daniel, because their group was not formed yet?

It is a strange coincidence the way that history played out to match the prophecy of the statue, and the prophecy of the beasts, perfectly.

Sorry, but the most amazing part of the prophecies is the accuracy, when these nations were not even yet world powers(and some not yet even formed).

Please read a history book about the time of the Exile, and you will find the series of nations match the prophecies perfectly, ending with Rome.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Then you obviously don't understand the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis. I started to listen to MacArthur's sermon only to see MacArthur in the first minute or so revealing his violent distortion of the grammatical-historical method.

"And you will recall that, as it is outlined in the Book of Daniel, both through some visions that came to Nebuchadnezzar and some visions that came to Daniel, there will be four great world empires until the time of Christ. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek, and the Roman. And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end."

MacArthur's interpretation is an absurd lie. There is nothing in the book of Daniel about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence of the Roman Empire. It is impossible for Daniel to have understood his dreams and visions in that way.
It already has, it is now called the European Union.

They still have not picked a single Leader to Rule over the entire Union, but they will. And he will be invited to rule, the prophesied Rider with a bow and no arrows is symbolism for a Conqueror that conquers peacefully at first.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Then you obviously don't understand the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis. I started to listen to MacArthur's sermon only to see MacArthur in the first minute or so revealing his violent distortion of the grammatical-historical method.

"And you will recall that, as it is outlined in the Book of Daniel, both through some visions that came to Nebuchadnezzar and some visions that came to Daniel, there will be four great world empires until the time of Christ. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek, and the Roman. And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end."

MacArthur's interpretation is an absurd lie. There is nothing in the book of Daniel about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence of the Roman Empire. It is impossible for Daniel to have understood his dreams and visions in that way.

No you are are looking in a mirror at your theology.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Timothy 3:7 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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It already has, it is now called the European Union.

They still have not picked a single Leader to Rule over the entire Union, but they will. And he will be invited to rule, the prophesied Rider with a bow and no arrows is symbolism for a Conqueror that conquers peacefully at first.
Even the EU/UN could simply be a type for what is to come.
I have my suspicions that you are correct, but I am not yet convicted of it being certain.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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So your idea of 'historical' means "as the people would understand, who original heard the prophecy".
What do you mean 'my idea'? Are you still unclear or uncertain about the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis? "The historical meaning is that sense which is demanded by a careful consideration of the time and circumstances in which the author wrote. It is the specific meaning which an author’s words require when the historical context and background are taken into account."

It is a strange coincidence the way that history played out to match the prophecy of the statue, and the prophecy of the beasts, perfectly.
You're obviously not a good judge of that because you accept the fabrications of John MacArthur.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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It already has, it is now called the European Union.
Thanks for revealing that you didn't understand my complaint, which proves that you have no clear idea what is meant by grammatical-historical exegesis.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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No you are are looking in a mirror at your theology.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves
That's hilarious because you're the one that produced a multiplied teachers' list in post #215. And as the Scriptures teach, the judgments of hypocrites are the judgments of self.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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What do you mean 'my idea'? Are you still unclear or uncertain about the meaning of grammatical-historical exegesis? "The historical meaning is that sense which is demanded by a careful consideration of the time and circumstances in which the author wrote. It is the specific meaning which an author’s words require when the historical context and background are taken into account."



You're obviously not a good judge of that because you accept the fabrications of John MacArthur.
LOL!
John MacArthur?!?!
Are you joking?!

men wrote of these things in the 500s, and you say John MacArthur?!

Sorry, let me tone down. Secular scholars have denied that Daniel could have possibly been written in the Exile due to the detail which he prophesies about future events. All secular scholars place the writing date between 300 and 150 bc.
Even the blind see the connection clearly,
but they deny it could be prophecy, because they are blinded.

On the 1st point,
Interpreting the author's words requires careful consideration of the time and circumstances, and the historical context and background. This means that each word must be defined as it would be in the writers time period and placement. This does not mean that a metaphorical image, such as a "beast", must be interpreted literally.
It also does not mean that the prophet must have perfect understanding of what God is showing him.
If this is the case, then no prophecy can be interpreted to tell anyone anything new, only things that they already know.

Please explain yourself more clearly. Are you really saying that Daniel had to have knowledge of every civilization and person that God was giving him messages about?
Surely Daniel didn't know the name Antiochus Epiphanes, yet he prophesied about him in clear detail many years before the man was even born.
 
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SolidGround

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Jan 15, 2014
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Just did some extra reading. There are Essene writings that also mention the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecies, noting Rome as the statues feet. They believed that the toes of the feet were not yet fulfilled, and that Rome would divide into 10 pieces, and then be destroyed by Messiah.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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Secular scholars have denied that Daniel could have possibly been written in the Exile due to the detail which he prophesies about future events. All secular scholars place the writing date between 300 and 150 bc.
Yes, but I was referring to John MacArthur misrepresenting what the book of Daniel actually predicted for the Roman period. "And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end." Hogwash.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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There are Essene writings that also mention the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecies, noting Rome as the statues feet. They believed that the toes of the feet were not yet fulfilled, and that Rome would divide into 10 pieces, and then be destroyed by Messiah.
So they said nothing about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence for the Roman Empire? Those ignoramuses!
 

SolidGround

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Jan 15, 2014
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Yes, but I was referring to John MacArthur misrepresenting what the book of Daniel actually predicted for the Roman period. "And the Roman Empire will drift into some kind of an abeyance, and then it will resurge itself at the end." Hogwash.
I'm not so sure he's the 1st one to say that either.
He may be the first to use the word 'abeyance' though. A very unused word indeed.

So they said nothing about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence for the Roman Empire? Those ignoramuses!
I didn't say they were right. I was noting that even they understood that Rome was the last empire, the one that would be destroyed by Messiah.
If such is the case, then Rome will need to be resurrected.
They did not have all the info, as we also don't. But we have more than they did.

If you look around, you will see how modern governments are trying to bring Rome back. A new Babel is coming.(I know you know this already, because you mentioned such things in one of your threads.)
BTW, Rome is referred to as Babylon by the Apostle Peter. He said he was writing from Babylon, but was actually writing from the city of Rome.
 
Jun 22, 2014
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I'm not so sure he's the 1st one to say that either.
The first to lie is a liar. To repeat a lie is lying. My point was that John MacArthur misrepresented what the book of Daniel actually predicted for the Roman period. Why can't you understand that?

If such is the case, then Rome will need to be resurrected.
Why don't you first acknowledge that there's nothing in the book of Daniel itself about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence of the Roman Empire? I'm beginning to think that I'm just talking to dead wood.