John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

[mailmandan]

we are saved by grace through faith....faith without works is dead...unless and until you understand what that means.....you are just a.hearer of the word not a doer...one cannot separate the operation of God...If you believe then you do as God says ...If you say you believe and do not the things that God says to do then you are either decieved or disobedient...Do you believe Jesus says repent and be baptised for the remission of sins?.....if your answer is no you have been deceived....if your answer is yes....it means you have done it alresdy...or will do it soon... if you don't do it then you are being disobedient...

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, created in Christ Jesus unto good works....if someone says/claims they have faith but they have no works, they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not genuine saving faith in Christ. You need to understand that man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance by those who trust in works to save them and not exclusively in Christ.

Those who are born of God are not simply hearers of the word and not doers (1 John 3:10). If we claim to believe yet do absolutely nothing, we are deceived. If we are constantly busy doing something (like the Pharisees), yet we don't believe, we are also deceived. Peter said Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. He also said: Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out....whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins....Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit.... God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture must harmonize with scripture.

 

[phil112]

Recently, I had some discussions with a Church of Christ - Campbellite faction person in the chat room who believes in baptismal regeneration. I have been doing some research on the topic of baptism and the verses they use to support their position.

.....................................
1) When the Scripture is speaking of being born of water and Spirit, it is talking about the physical birth when speaking of water, and the spiritual birth when speaking of Spirit. How can water be a symbol of physical birth? A phase in late pregnancy is when the "water breaks". Consult a human reproduction textbook for further details.
.......................................
I personally do not think the first possibility is correct but it is reasonable. I think the second and third possibility have a lot more merit, and I lean a bit more toward the third possibility.

The first is correct. Being born of water is indeed referencing physical birth. Born twice, die once, born once, die twice. No scriptural support for being born 3 times.

 

[Alligator]

,,

So you are not going to answer my question? I answered your question below.

.

Our faith must be trusting 100% in Christ. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost. Trusting in Christ + works is not 100% faith in Christ but is also faith in works (at least in part).



Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people misuse Hebrews 5:9 to support salvation by works. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless? In Romans 10:16, we see: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel/obey Christ by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16).

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. Just look at the Pharisees and these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who think they are obeying God by their works. In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

No, you didn't answer my question. You reworded the question to fit your theory and then answered it. I wasn't born last night . FOR THE LAST TIME, THE SOURCE OF OUR FAITH AND SALVATION IS NOT THE ISSUE BEING DEBATED HERE. YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100% and. I BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100%. I am at least giving you credit for full trust in Christ, though I doubt you will give me the same.

Of course only believers will obey Christ. But obeying is a lot more than simply saying " I believe ". Obeying means DOING something, like teaching the lost, and any other acts that are a part of the Christian life. Remember Christ told the sinner "go and DO likewise.

 

[newbirth]

,,

No, you didn't answer my question. You reworded the question to fit your theory and then answered it. I wasn't born last night . FOR THE LAST TIME, THE SOURCE OF OUR FAITH AND SALVATION IS NOT THE ISSUE BEING DEBATED HERE. YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100% and. I BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100%. I am at least giving you credit for full trust in Christ, though I doubt you will give me the same.

Of course only believers will obey Christ. But obeying is a lot more than simply saying " I believe ". Obeying means DOING something, like teaching the lost, and any other acts that are a part of the Christian life. Remember Christ told the sinner "go and DO likewise.

same thing I am trying to explain to Atwood.....
John 8:30-37American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these things, many believed on him.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;

[SUP]32 [/SUP]and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]I know that ye are Abraham's seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.

 

[newbirth]

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, created in Christ Jesus unto good works....if someone says/claims they have faith but they have no works, they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not genuine saving faith in Christ. You need to understand that man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. That is the balance that gets out of balance by those who trust in works to save them and not exclusively in Christ.

Those who are born of God are not simply hearers of the word and not doers (1 John 3:10). If we claim to believe yet do absolutely nothing, we are deceived. If we are constantly busy doing something (like the Pharisees), yet we don't believe, we are also deceived. Peter said Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. He also said: Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out....whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins....Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit.... God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture must harmonize with scripture.

faith not works of the law but works of faith.....else he would not say we are created unto good works....we are not saved by faith...it is by grace we are saved...but it is through the operation of faith....it is like saying...
Ephesians 5:26
that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

how are we cleaned when we are washed with the word?......only when we apply the word to our lives.....hearing is not the application but doing is.....

 

[mailmandan]

No, you didn't answer my question. You reworded the question to fit your theory and then answered it.

Yes, I answered your question and did not reword it. How can you have 50% or 80% faith? What's the other 50% or 20% of your faith in? Works? Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are not. It's not about do I have enough faith, like do I have enough money, it's about do I have the right kind of faith that trusts 100% in Christ for salvation.

I wasn't born last night. FOR THE LAST TIME, THE SOURCE OF OUR FAITH AND SALVATION IS NOT THE ISSUE BEING DEBATED HERE. YOU BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100% and. I BELIEVE IN CHRIST 100%. I am at least giving you credit for full trust in Christ, though I doubt you will give me the same.

How is believing in Christ "plus works to help save us" believing in Christ 100%? Whatever we are trusting in to save us, that's what we believe in/have faith in for salvation.

Of course only believers will obey Christ.

Amen! That's the whole point of Hebrews 5:9.

But obeying is a lot more than simply saying " I believe ". Obeying means DOING something, like teaching the lost, and any other acts that are a part of the Christian life. Remember Christ told the sinner "go and DO likewise.

Amen! Obeying/acts of obedience/good works are the fruit of genuine belief/faith. If we claim to believe/have faith but we never obey, then we demonstrate that we have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. Faith is believing/trusting 100% in Christ to save us. Obedience which follows is works. We are saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. That is the balance that tends to get out of balance.

 

[mailmandan]

same thing I am trying to explain to Atwood.....John 8:30-37 American Standard Version (ASV) [SUP]30 [/SUP]As he spake these things, many believed on him.

Their "belief" is shown to not be saving belief in the course of the story. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone Jesus (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in John 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’” These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says “do not believe” (vs. 64).

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;

These Jews who were indifferent to Jesus' words and ended up picking up stones to throw at Him and Jesus referred to as "slaves to sin" and "children of the devil" and "liars" did not abide in His word, they were not truly His disciples.

 

[Alligator]

Yes, I answered your question and did not reword it. How can you have 50% or 80% faith? What's the other 50% or 20% of your faith in? Works? Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are not. It's not about do I have enough faith, like do I have enough money, it's about do I have the right kind of faith that trusts 100% in Christ for salvation.



How is believing in Christ "plus works to help save us" believing in Christ 100%? Whatever we are trusting in to save us,



Amen! That's the whole point of Hebrews 5:9.



Amen! Obeying/acts of obedience/good works are the fruit of genuine belief/faith. If we claim to believe/have faith but we never obey, then we demonstrate that we have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. Faith is believing/trusting 100% in Christ to save us. Obedience which follows is works. We are saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. That is the balance that tends to get out of balance.

How is believing in Christ "plus works to help save us" believing in Christ 100%? Whatever we are trusting in to save us, [/Quote]


Because if Christ told us to go stand on our head for one hour and we would be saved we would do,it, why?.Because He's still the Savior no matter what His conditions are. Heb. 5:9.

 

[mailmandan]

Because if Christ told us to go stand on our head for one hour and we would be saved we would do,it, why?.Because He's still the Savior no matter what His conditions are. Heb. 5:9.

Christ is certainly an All Sufficient Savior. No supplements needed. It seems to me that His condition for becoming saved "he who believes in Him is not condemned" gets mixed up with His commands for us after we have been saved. As you said, only believers will obey Him (and they obey Him because they are saved) so Hebrews 5:9 is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers.

 

[newbirth]

Their "belief" is shown to not be saving belief in the course of the story. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature). Now read on in John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], attempted to stone Jesus (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in John 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’” These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says “do not believe” (vs. 64).


These Jews who were indifferent to Jesus' words and ended up picking up stones to throw at Him and Jesus referred to as "slaves to sin" and "children of the devil" and "liars" did not abide in His word, they were not truly His disciples.

sometimes I am amazed by the comments you guys make...we are saved by grace (not saving belief.. or genuine or consummated belief ) through faith.....that faith is the same as abiding in the word

 

[mailmandan]

sometimes I am amazed by the comments you guys make...we are saved by grace (not saving belief.. or genuine or consummated belief) through faith.....that faith is the same as abiding in the word

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Not to be confused with shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away.

To abide in His word is to remain, continue, stay in His word which demonstrates that we are truly His disciples. You sound confused. Did post #127 go right over your head? What part of it are you having trouble understanding?

 

[newbirth]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Not to be confused with shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away.

To abide in His word is to remain, continue, stay in His word which demonstrates that we are truly His disciples. You sound confused. Did post #127 go right over your head? What part of it are you having trouble understanding?

the scripture says we are saved by grace through faith ...you come up with some thing you make up about saving faith ...which I have never seen in scripture....and you think I am confused? you talk about belief ,trust and reliance but you refuse to obey the word of God...and follow commandments of man... you are OSAS you don't need to abide ask Atwood...why the need to be a disciple if you are OSAS that would make no difference ...you have ES.....You seem to be teaching that God gave some faith and some saving faith....God gives faith some continue in the faith some don't...

 

[mailmandan]

the scripture says we are saved by grace through faith...

True, and don't forget saved by grace through faith, not works.

you come up with some thing you make up about saving faith...which I have never seen in scripture....and you think I am confused?

Make up about saving faith? Hebrews 11:1 is not made up. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: *THIS IS NOT MADE UP #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

you talk about belief, trust and reliance but you refuse to obey the word of God...

Who said I refuse to obey the word of God? Trusting in works salvation is not obeying the word of God.

and follow commandments of man...

What commandments of man? I don't follow flawed religions that teach salvation by works.

you are OSAS you don't need to abide ask Atwood...

To abide is to continue, remain, stay. If we don't continue, then we demonstrate that we have a shallow belief that has no root.

why the need to be a disciple if you are OSAS that would make no difference...

Who said that born again believers are not disciples of Christ?

you have ES.....You seem to be teaching that God gave some faith and some saving faith....God gives faith some continue in the faith some don't...

God draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) but we choose to come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation. God does not fatalistically determine who will be saved and who will not be saved. WE choose to either believe the gospel or remain blinded in unbelief (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[newbirth]

True, and don't forget saved by grace through faith, not works.



Make up about saving faith? Hebrews 11:1 is not made up. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: *THIS IS NOT MADE UP #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."



Who said I refuse to obey the word of God? Trusting in works salvation is not obeying the word of God.



What commandments of man? I don't follow flawed religions that teach salvation by works.



To abide is to continue, remain, stay. If we don't continue, then we demonstrate that we have a shallow belief that has no root.



Who said that born again believers are not disciples of Christ?



God draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) but we choose to come to Christ and place our faith in Him for salvation. God does not fatalistically determine who will be saved and who will not be saved. WE choose to either believe the gospel or remain blinded in unbelief (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

created unto good works....if you don't do what you are created for you are good for nothing...we are not saved by works it is by grace through faith.....God has already decided by his word who will be saved ....you do not choose to come God calls...we respond...(faith comes by hearing) you had no faith except after you heard the word...so you don't place your faith anywhere you respond to the grace of God through the faith you got from hearing the word...the word of faith says we are created unto good works...if you are not created unto good works you have not been saved......if you have been created unto good works and you don't do good works you are either ignorant or disobedient ...in times off ignorance god winks ...however the disobedient have no place in Christ unless they repent.....

Acts 17:26-31King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[phil112]

..................................God has already decided by his word who will be saved ....you do not choose to come God calls.........................

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

So I guess that there are those that open the door and Christ comes in, for what, their last supper? You really think Christ sups with people intent on going to hell?

When He says "hear my voice", it doesn't actually mean hear, He means heeds. If it was hear, He wouldn't need to tell us, now would He?

 

[notuptome]

It's not good enough to simply accuse me of teaching error, you have to SHOW ME. All Christians receive the Holy Spirit upon conversion, but that's not the same thing as receiving the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. What about the eunuch? He went down into the water, he was water baptized. And just before His ascension, Christ issued the Great Commission to the apostles in Matt. 28. They were to baptize. Read it. They were to administer water baptism. Man can not administer Holy Spirit baptism, only Christ. To believe this is Holy Spirit baptism would mean that Christ gave a command to the apostles that they couldn't perform.

There is no water baptism in Mat 28. The construction of the original does not allow water because it is a submergence like a shipwreck which once under the water is not brought back up. Jesus did not tell the disciples to drown people. The context of the verse is to teach and that teaching is doctrine.

The eunuch was saved before he went into the water.

Scripture accuses you of error not me. Your error is obvious in the light of Gods word.

Allow God to teach you and cease from trying to teach God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Alligator]

It's not good enough to simply accuse me of teaching error, you have to SHOW ME. All Christians receive the Holy Spirit upon conversion, but that's not the same thing as receiving the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. What about the eunuch? He went down into the water, he was water baptized. And just before His ascension, Christ issued the Great Commission to the apostles in Matt. 28. They were to baptize. Read it. They were to administer water baptism. Man can not administer Holy Spirit baptism, only Christ. To believe this is Holy Spirit baptism would mean that Christ gave a command to the apostles that they couldn't perform.

There is no water baptism in Mat 28. The construction of the original does not allow water because it is a submergence like a shipwreck which once under the water is not brought back up. Jesus did not tell the disciples to drown people. The context of the verse is to teach and that teaching is doctrine.

The eunuch was saved before he went into the water.

Scripture accuses you of error not me. Your error is obvious in the light of Gods word.

Allow God to teach you and cease from trying to teach God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT....?? To baptize means to IMMERSE. Look it up. It doesn't say hold someone's head under water until they drown, LOL. I have to admit, of all the excuses I've heard against water baptism, yours is the strangest yet.

Show me where it says the eunuch was saved prior to being baptized.

And it's MY error that is obvious? I'm still waiting for you to show me.

 

[notuptome]

WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT....?? To baptize means to IMMERSE. Look it up. It doesn't say hold someone's head under water until they drown, LOL. I have to admit, of all the excuses I've heard against water baptism, yours is the strangest yet.

The Greek Baptizo is used here which is to submerge the word you are looking for is bapto which is to dip repeatedly. Baptizo is never used for water baptism. A whole host of folks have endeavored to illuminate you on this simple truth.

Show me where it says the eunuch was saved prior to being baptized.

Philip asked him saying if thou believest thou mayest. The eunuch believed on Christ and was saved before he went into the water. Clear as day. The eunuchs answer was that he believed on Christ.

And it's MY error that is obvious? I'm still waiting for you to show me.

Then behold your error. Scripture admonishes you to study to show yourself approved that you be not ashamed. Stubborness is no substitute for biblical study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

The Greek Baptizo is used here which is to submerge the word you are looking for is bapto which is to dip repeatedly. Baptizo is never used for water baptism. A whole host of folks have endeavored to illuminate you on this simple truth.
Philip asked him saying if thou believest thou mayest. The eunuch believed on Christ and was saved before he went into the water. Clear as day. The eunuchs answer was that he believed on Christ.

Then behold your error. Scripture admonishes you to study to show yourself approved that you be not ashamed. Stubborness is no substitute for biblical study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

did your study show that some ancient manuscripts have no vs 37
[SUP]36 [/SUP]As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” [SUP][37] [/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

 

[Alligator]

The Greek Baptizo is used here which is to submerge the word you are looking for is bapto which is to dip repeatedly. Baptizo is never used for water baptism. A whole host of folks have endeavored to illuminate you on this simple truth.
Philip asked him saying if thou believest thou mayest. The eunuch believed on Christ and was saved before he went into the water. Clear as day. The eunuchs answer was that he believed on Christ.

Then behold your error. Scripture admonishes you to study to show yourself approved that you be not ashamed. Stubborness is no substitute for biblical study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Greek Baptizo is used here which is to submerge the word you are looking for is bapto which is to dip repeatedly. Baptizo is never used for water baptism. A whole host of folks have endeavored to illuminate you on this

Oh really. Look at this: Matt. 3:11 Jesus said "I baptize you with water" and guess what word he uses, BAPTIZO. Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; are other scriptures that use it. You re spreading false information. It is obvious you are just trying to make a case for Spirit baptism.

As far as the eunuch goes, show me where faith alone is all that's necessary for salvation .