A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[TheDivineWatermark]

Uh-huh. Wading through this post I take you didn't get your faith from God as gift then?

Where does it come from?

Consider the following (and keep in mind its context, starting in verse 1 and explaining certain objective Truths that were believed [and to be believed]):

1 Corinthians 15:13-17 -

"13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."



[verses 1-2 say, "... the gospel [neuter] which I [Paul] preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by [means of] which ye are saved..." (and keep in mind that the words that follow this [the "IF"] have to do with believing the SPECIFIC ASPECT of His RESURRECTION also and not LEAVING THAT VITAL PART OFF, apart from which, faith is "in vain")]

 

[garee]

Yes.

And even in this verse, I believe there is a distinction between the phrases "faith OF Christ [/'faith OF Jesus Christ']" and "we have believed IN Jesus Christ"

Exactly before the Holy Spirit worked in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We had "no faith" not little but none or any way to believe God not seen . Eternal faith is the work of God working in us .It is not of ourselves after the imaginations of our hearts .

Natural man dead in his trespasses and sin without God in this world no living hope in the next generation.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Philippians 3:9

No work of God= no believing God (no faith)

Believing is a work .For faith believing without works has not spirit life to offer .

We can as new creature have faith in or towards Him because we have the faith of God towards us,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phillipians 3:9

Many translation change the word of as coming from to as in or towards Him. In doing so thay blasphemy the holy name by which we are called.

 

[trofimus]

No difficulty at all. Calvinists just misinterpret the text thats all.
The context reveals its talking about: "deep things of God".

I think the context is about preaching of apostles and it must include the gospel.

Or do you think that the gospel is not a deep spiritual thing? God became a man, died, was resurrected and by faith we are born from above, we receive his sacrifice and his righteousness?

Easy for an animal/natural man to accept?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:29 [blb] -

"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you should believe [subjunctive] in Him whom He has sent."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-29.htm

Believing is a work .

No.

Romans 4:5

and the passage I just supplied in Post #241.

 

[garee]

Consider the following (and keep in mind its context, starting in verse 1 and explaining certain objective Truths that were believed [and to be believed]):

1 Corinthians 15:13-17 -

"13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."



[verses 1-2 say, "... the gospel [neuter] which I [Paul] preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by [means of] which ye are saved..." (and keep in mind that the words that follow this [the "IF"] have to do with believing the SPECIFIC ASPECT of His RESURRECTION also and not LEAVING THAT VITAL PART OFF, apart from which, faith is "in vain")]

Your faith In 1 Corinthians 15:13-17 is the hearing of faith by which the Holy Sprit gives ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. It is the gift of God, not of our own selves lest any man boast in false pride .

Natural man a has "no faith" not little but none.The faith that comes from hearing God could never be in vain.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ garee, did you happen to examine the content of my Post #224? (the points I endeavored to make, therein... and maybe in a follow-up post as well, further down)

 

[garee]

John 6:29 [blb] -

"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you should believe [subjunctive] in Him whom He has sent."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-29.htm



No.

Romans 4:5

and the passage I just supplied in Post #241.

Faith (belief) without works (the ability to make oneself heard) without it working, is dead . Just as a body without a spirit returns to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of. Beader than a door nail

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit "is dead", so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No difficulty at all. Calvinists just misinterpret the text thats all.
The context reveals its talking about: "deep things of God".

Agreed. The "deep things of God" that the Corinthians in 3:1 were yet unable to to have Paul speak to them about...

 

[garee]

^ garee, did you happen to examine the content of my Post #224? (the points I endeavored to make, therein... and maybe in a follow-up post as well, further down)

Yes I did the your faith you bolded is the faith of God not of our own selves. Again we are born with "no faith" . it seems you are calling the imaginations of ones heart faith?

Faith is the free gift. Having none (not little) before it was freely given from heaven

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Faith (belief) without works (the ability to make oneself heard) without it working, is dead . Just as a body without a spirit returns to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of. Beader than a door nail

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit "is dead", so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The context of James 2... refers also to Abraham (at his offering up of Isaac)... and context of Romans 4 informs us that [the point in time that] "Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" was a large number of years BEFORE the offering up of Isaac.

God was not in question of Abraham's salvation during all those many years.

We must keep in mind the CONTEXT of James 2. [it is not "justification before GOD" that is under discussion there]

 

[John146]

I think you mentioned several times that you believe that God does not know the future.

Man has defined "all knowing" to include all future decisions. That's not in Scripture. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. Future decisions are not even knowledge yet, until that instant. Could God know? Yes, but He has chosen to limit His knowledge when dealing with man. And again, nothing surprises God.

 

[trofimus]

Man has defined "all knowing" to include all future decisions. That's not in Scripture. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. Future decisions are not even knowledge yet, until that instant. Could God know? Yes, but He has chosen to limit His knowledge when dealing with man. And again, nothing surprises God.

Yep, a socinian view. ;-)

 

[trofimus]

7 common misconceptions about predetermination:

1. We are not saying we do not have a choice
- if God will judge us for our deeds (both good and evil), we must have a choice
- we are only saying that, we, as a fallen human race, incline towards evil [choices] and therefore our choices are not free

2. When we say we do not have a free will, we are not saying we do not have any will at all.
- we are only saying that our will is not good enough to be called "free"
- we, as any created beings, are subjected to countless influences we have no control over and these influences make us decide this or that way

3. When we say that we do not have a free will, we are not saying that we are robots
- inclination is not pre-programming with a mathematical impossibility to do something different
- predetermination makes events certain, but not necessary
- we are making our own choices based on our desires, inclinations, experiences etc.

4. We are not saying that the elect ones will be saved no matter what they do
- we are saying that they will do everything what is needed to be done
- because God's predetermination is not just about the end, it is also about the whole way from the creation -> every predestined end has its predestined chain of events leading to it

5. So why to preach the Gospel?
- for the elect ones so they can hear it and respond positively and be saved
- for the non-elect ones it is a preaching of the coming judgement

6. "But Calvin did this or that, his opinions were... and he burnt that Servetus guy"
- by "calvinism" we just distinguish the theological view from the other ones, mainly the "Arminian" one
- most of calvinists have no idea about the life and teaching of Calvin or Augustin and most arminians have no idea about the life and teachings of Arminius or Pelagius

7. John 3:16 says nothing relevant to Calvinism/free will debate
- it only says that who believes, will be saved, which is what we accept fully
- read also context - about a need to be born from above, then the real faith comes

 

[John146]

KJV says that God does not repent:

"God is not a man that he should repent"
Nu 23:19 KJV

KJV says that God does repent:

God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jonah 3:10 KJV

Hard is the life of the KJV literalist believer.

Context, context, context...in all the passages where it states God will not repent, they have to do with His future promises and plans for Israel.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ garee, did you happen to examine the content of my Post #224? (the points I endeavored to make, therein... and maybe in a follow-up post as well, further down)

Yes I did the your faith you bolded is the faith of God not of our own selves. […]

Okay, but when you say "yes I did" and then go on to speak of the content of an entirely DIFFERENT post of mine, it makes me question if you read my quote above correctly. Thanks.


[My Post #224 (and maybe another after that somewhere) is on the subject of "called [/invited]" and the TWO different Grk words (regarding this) and where they are used in two passages, and how---I've not seen you address those points]

 

[trofimus]

Context, context, context...in all the passages where it states God will not repent, they have to do with His future promises and plans for Israel.

So, you basically believe in a God, who never changes His mind regarding Israel (even though it is recorded many times in the OT that He did), but who is never certain and stable about all other 200 nations of the Earth... ?

 

[John146]

Yep, a socinian view. ;-)

Instead of name calling, quote Scripture to back your position. Thanks.

 

[NayborBear]

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

So God is in control of the tiniest detail of His Creation, down to whether a sparrow dies, yet He isn't in control of who is saved?


Simply Incredible!

Been reading through this thread. I have to laugh AT BBB! The man has no understanding of how "infiltrated" (the book of Jude: 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.) he is, and has become. Being "blinded in the light" of the Instead OF Christ! (aka spirit of antichrist).

Certainly, a cessessionist, who, in his "over posting", (ALMOST, to the point of spamming), in his trying to SHEPHERD "God into his box?" Is exposing "his void", in his traditions of man, "rantings!"

OH! Silly man, that you are! In your ignorance! In your repeated FALSE ACCUSATIONS that those who purport to just one word of John Calvin, are FULL-BLOODED CALVINISTS! (in for a penny? In for a pound!...Right? ) And THEN? In your "pigeon holing" this WHOLE world of believers, into "your" definition, of what these believers MUST ADHERE to! Silly man, that you are!

Isaiah 14
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

 

[John146]

So, you basically believe in a God, who never changes His mind regarding Israel (even though it is recorded many times in the OT that He did), but who is never certain and stable about all other 200 nations of the Earth... ?

What God has declared as future promises of Israel, He will not repent.

Why do you use such words as "never certain" and "stable"? Does it make you feel better about your position?

Now your saying God changed His mind? How could that be?

 

[trofimus]

Instead of name calling, quote Scripture to back your position. Thanks.

You are still the same
Psalm 102:27

Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of shifting.
James 1:17

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages.
Heb 13:8