A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[trofimus]

What God has declared as future promises of Israel, He will not repent.

Why do you use such words as "never certain" and "stable"? Does it make you feel better about your position?

Now your saying God changed His mind? How could that be?

No, I do not say that God ever changes His mind, really. Its just an antropomorphism.

I use words as "certain, stable", because if you believe that God can change, there is no certainity about his plans with us and no stability in His words and plans.

 

[John146]

You are still the same
Psalm 102:27

Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of shifting.
James 1:17

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages.
Heb 13:8

Love those verses, thanks for posting. God's character never changes. He has always been full of grace and mercy to those who heed His word. However, the manner in which God deals with man, does change. Ever seen a burning bush and God speak from it? Why? We have written Scripture now, no need for a burning bush, an angel of the Lord to come down, etc...

 

[trofimus]

Love those verses, thanks for posting. God's character never changes. He has always been full of grace and mercy to those who heed His word. However, the manner in which God deals with man, does change. Ever seen a burning bush and God speak from it? Why? We have written Scripture now, no need for a burning bush, an angel of the Lord to come down, etc...

There is no word "character", its something you inserted into it.

 

[John146]

No, I do not say that God ever changes His mind, really. Its just an antropomorphism.

I use words as "certain, stable", because if you believe that God can change, there is no certainity about his plans with us and no stability in His words and plans.

Another ism to explain away Scripture. Does it ever stop? Why not believe Scripture? I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. If God declared He was going to overthrow Nineveh in forty days, and in forty days God did not overthrow Nineveh...what happened? Scripture says God did not do what He said He was going to do. Why? Because Nineveh believed God and repented. Why not believe God's word instead of coming up with an ism to explain away Scripture?

 

[trofimus]

Another ism to explain away Scripture. Does it ever stop? Why not believe Scripture? I believe God meant what He said and said what He meant. If God declared He was going to overthrow Nineveh in forty days, and in forty days God did not overthrow Nineveh...what happened? Scripture says God did not do what He said He was going to do. Why? Because Nineveh believed God and repented. Why not believe God's word instead of coming up with an ism to explain away Scripture?

Believing Scripture is not enough, we must also understand it.

"ism" is not an evil thing, its just a name so that you know what I mean and I do not have to explain what I mean.

Antropomorphism: "the assignment of human shape and attributes to gods, animals, etc."

If I say that God has hair white as snow, its antropomorphism, because God is not a man to have a hair, for example. If I say that God's right hand did something, it bears some meaning, but not the literal one. And in the same way, when the author of the book of Jonah said that God changed his mind about the evil, it means that its what appeared to him to be so.

And for me not to need to explain all this and not to need to make examples, I would like to just say "antropomorphism", next time without your allergic reaction to "isms". Thanks

 

[Nehemiah6]

The anomalies that really need addressed are: 1) You've called all the Reformed lost;

All the Reformed are not lost. Just deluded, like "lost in the woods".

2) You still don't know the meaning of the text you refer to in the first line;

Even a child would know the meaning of this: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3) You don't deem God fair for choosing whom He wills so you distort his ways and his word;

Since God desires the whole world to be saved, the issue of fairness does not even arise. IF ALL WOULD BELIEVE, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.

4) You've then created and fashioned God how you wish him to be;

You are thinking of the God of Calvinism.

5) Your anger towards God's sovereign electing grace (Romans 9:20).

How can anyone be angry for God offering eternal life to WHOSOEVER WILL?

 

[garee]

What God has declared as future promises of Israel, He will not repent.

Why do you use such words as "never certain" and "stable"? Does it make you feel better about your position?

Now your saying God changed His mind? How could that be?

Not all Israel is Israel according to the new name he named his people, Christian. a word that means residents of the city of Christ. The new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His eternal bride, the church.

The time of reformation has come.

 

[garee]

The context of James 2... refers also to Abraham (at his offering up of Isaac)... and context of Romans 4 informs us that [the point in time that] "Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" was a large number of years BEFORE the offering up of Isaac.

God was not in question of Abraham's salvation during all those many years.

We must keep in mind the CONTEXT of James 2. [it is not "justification before GOD" that is under discussion there]

The context is if we would have the faith of Christ that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure in respect to Abraham or Rehab or one self as a imputed righteousness we blaspheme the holy name by which we are called ' A person would have to identify whose faith works in who in order to make the imputed righteousness perfect .

Christ is the author and perfect of His will. He is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul desires ( Job 23) he performs the things appointed to us just as he did with Rehab and Abraham. It is he who can make our hearts soft not of our own selves

I will offer whose faith is in view in James 2 as belonging to Christ, coming from. Highlighted in (purple parenthesis's ) .

0 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Christ's) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how (Christ's) faith wrought (worked) with his (Christ's) works, and by (Christ's) works (that Christ worked in him to both will and do the good pleasure of God) was faith (God's) made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:(Christ's) and he was called the Friend of God.James 2:20-23

 

[John146]

Believing Scripture is not enough, we must also understand it.

"ism" is not an evil thing, its just a name so that you know what I mean and I do not have to explain what I mean.

Antropomorphism: "the assignment of human shape and attributes to gods, animals, etc."

If I say that God has hair white as snow, its antropomorphism, because God is not a man to have a hair, for example. If I say that God's right hand did something, it bears some meaning, but not the literal one. And in the same way, when the author of the book of Jonah said that God changed his mind about the evil, it means that its what appeared to him to be so.

And for me not to need to explain all this and not to need to make examples, I would like to just say "antropomorphism", next time without your allergic reaction to "isms". Thanks

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

No orphisms here, just straight facts about the story.

 

[trofimus]

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

No orphisms here, just straight facts about the story.

You are right, its a story. A story told by a narrator. This narrator uses anthropomorphisms as a literary instrument.

Similar to this:
He “sets [his] face” against evil (Leviticus 20:6); the Lord will make “His face” to shine on you (Numbers 6:25); He “stretched out his hand” (Exodus 7:5; Isaiah 23:11), and God scattered enemies with His strong arm (Psalm 89:10). He “stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth” (Psalm 113:6). He “keeps his eye” on the land (Deuteronomy 11:12), the “eyes of the Lord” are on the righteous (Psalm 34:15), and the earth is His “footstool” (Isaiah 66:1).

Or this:
Human emotions are also ascribed to God: He was “sorry” (Genesis 6:6), “jealous” (Exodus 20:5), “moved to pity” (Judges 2:18), and “grieved” over making Saul Israel’s first king (1 Samuel 15:35). We read that the Lord “changed His mind” (Exodus 32:14), “relented” (2 Samuel 24:16), and will “remember” when He sees a rainbow in the sky (Genesis 9:16). God is “angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11), and He “burned with anger” against Job’s friends (Job 32:5).

https://www.gotquestions.org/anthropomorphism.html

 

[PennEd]

Consider the following (and keep in mind its context, starting in verse 1 and explaining certain objective Truths that were believed [and to be believed]):

1 Corinthians 15:13-17 -

"13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."



[verses 1-2 say, "... the gospel [neuter] which I [Paul] preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by [means of] which ye are saved..." (and keep in mind that the words that follow this [the "IF"] have to do with believing the SPECIFIC ASPECT of His RESURRECTION also and not LEAVING THAT VITAL PART OFF, apart from which, faith is "in vain")]

Ok.

No idea if that answers my question or not. But a good read nonetheless.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's remarkable those who say salvation is all of God, but they couldn't be saved without THEIR faith. They didn't get that from God, they had that all on their lonesome, in spite of the fact it, faith, is also granted by God as is salvation.

 

[John146]

You are right, its a story. A story told by a narrator. This narrator uses anthropomorphisms as a literary instrument.

Similar to this:
He “sets [his] face” against evil (Leviticus 20:6); the Lord will make “His face” to shine on you (Numbers 6:25); He “stretched out his hand” (Exodus 7:5; Isaiah 23:11), and God scattered enemies with His strong arm (Psalm 89:10). He “stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth” (Psalm 113:6). He “keeps his eye” on the land (Deuteronomy 11:12), the “eyes of the Lord” are on the righteous (Psalm 34:15), and the earth is His “footstool” (Isaiah 66:1).

Or this:
Human emotions are also ascribed to God: He was “sorry” (Genesis 6:6), “jealous” (Exodus 20:5), “moved to pity” (Judges 2:18), and “grieved” over making Saul Israel’s first king (1 Samuel 15:35). We read that the Lord “changed His mind” (Exodus 32:14), “relented” (2 Samuel 24:16), and will “remember” when He sees a rainbow in the sky (Genesis 9:16). God is “angry with the wicked every day” (Psalm 7:11), and He “burned with anger” against Job’s friends (Job 32:5).

https://www.gotquestions.org/anthropomorphism.html

I'm done with this conversation. You can make the bible say anything you want it to say, and in this case, not say what it clearly states. I would move away from isms and believe the bible. It is God's word, not a narrator's point of view. God Bless.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another consideration (when viewing 1 Corinthians 2:14 and its context [incl'g 3:1 re: saved persons]) is how the word "G5591 - psuchikos" is used elsewhere (and distinct from "G5446 - phusikos " and how that is elsewhere used [linked below])

[quoting]

G5591 - psuchikos - "Definition: natural, of the soul or mind
Usage: animal, natural, sensuous." ..."soulish" [or 'of the senses']

"5591 psyxikós (an adjective, derived from 5590 /psyxḗ, "soul, natural identity") – properly, soulish, i.e. what is natural, as it relates to physical (tangible) life alone (i.e. apart from God's inworking of faith)."

"natural, sensual.
From psuche; sensitive, i.e. Animate (in distinction on the one hand from pneumatikos, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from phusikos [G5446], which is the lower or bestial nature) -- natural, sensual."

[end quoting]

 

[trofimus]

I'm done with this conversation. You can make the bible say anything you want it to say, and in this case, not say what it clearly states. I would move away from isms and believe the bible. It is God's word, not a narrator's point of view. God Bless.

As you wish. If you decide to take literary instruments as "the literal facts", then you will end up with a very human-like God. As you probably did.

 

[PennEd]

Context, context, context...in all the passages where it states God will not repent, they have to do with His future promises and plans for Israel.

Please read these passages carefully. It is silly to think an omnipotent God changes His Mind:

Numbers 23:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?


Did God lie when He said He was going to destroy Nineveh? Or was it ALWAYS His Plan to send Jonah and have them repent? I don't think God lies.

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Nuff said there.

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

So after reading these, hopefully you can see that God doesn't change.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It's remarkable those who say salvation is all of God, but they couldn't be saved without THEIR faith. They didn't get that from God, they had that all on their lonesome, in spite of the fact it, faith, is also granted by God as is salvation.

ROMANS 10
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ downfrom above)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Endoscopy]

With so many clear verses of Scripture offering a universal call to salvation one has to wonder what possesses Calvinists to cling to this man made doctrine.

There is a contraversy between Calvinism and Armenianism. Going back to the early elders there were many issues they disagreed about. As a result between 212 and 500 the creeds were created. They defined 3 things.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Any Biblical issue outside of it was to agree to disagree.
3. Anything contrary to them was heresy.

The Quinquarticular Controversy falls into item 2. Both sides have web sites defending their position with lengthy documents heavily defended by scripture references.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/


Explain who is right and who is wrong with Biblical references disputing their Biblical references.

 

[Hevosmies]

There is a contraversy between Calvinism and Armenianism. Going back to the early elders there were many issues they disagreed about. As a result between 212 and 500 the creeds were created. They defined 3 things.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Any Biblical issue outside of it was to agree to disagree.
3. Anything contrary to them was heresy.

The Quinquarticular Controversy falls into item 2. Both sides have web sites defending their position with lengthy documents heavily defended by scripture references.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/


Explain who is right and who is wrong with Biblical references disputing their Biblical references.

Arminianism and calvinism are BOTH unbiblical. NEXT

 

[trofimus]

Arminianism and calvinism are BOTH unbiblical. NEXT

But he said "armenianism", not "arminianism".

Armenianism is a special, Armenian flavor of arminianism you have not studied yet.