A empowered and working grace
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
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I would use words like this. When does someone first become aware of the Kingdom?
When they first hear the words of God preached.
It is the response they make and the walk they start that determines where they
end up.
A person is not made whole, as if something is missing, a person is purified, remade,
born again, purified. All we are is here, nothing is added, it is changed.
Communion with God is the thing that is missing and through Christ we gain this
communion into the Holy of holies.
When they first hear the words of God preached.
It is the response they make and the walk they start that determines where they
end up.
A person is not made whole, as if something is missing, a person is purified, remade,
born again, purified. All we are is here, nothing is added, it is changed.
Communion with God is the thing that is missing and through Christ we gain this
communion into the Holy of holies.
Peter....I have no idea where your mind goes when you read things. There is something drastically wrong here. Did you not read what I wrote? Look at the craziness you wrote above in blue and see what I wrote.
Here is what I wrote:
Those that reject Christ will still have the wrath of God come upon the sin that is still on them because they failed to come to Christ and believe in what He did.
Unquote:
Can you not see it is talking about "those that reject Christ - they failed to come to Christ and believe in what He did"
This is one of the reasons that I need to severely limit my interaction with you - you do not comprehend what is actually being said. You take what is said and then "reformulate" it in your head to mean something else - then you attack this "thought" as if it is real.
My goodness - Peter...read what is really said!
Here is what I wrote:
Those that reject Christ will still have the wrath of God come upon the sin that is still on them because they failed to come to Christ and believe in what He did.
Unquote:
Can you not see it is talking about "those that reject Christ - they failed to come to Christ and believe in what He did"
This is one of the reasons that I need to severely limit my interaction with you - you do not comprehend what is actually being said. You take what is said and then "reformulate" it in your head to mean something else - then you attack this "thought" as if it is real.
My goodness - Peter...read what is really said!
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I am making a suggestion my friend that you are doing what grace777 does, turn
everything into his division. It sounds like you are going down this road.
Now if I am wrong, please correct me. It seems this is the way you are interpreting
things, which is an alien way of reading scripture for me, as I have never heard it in
detail but have seen its outworkings in the projections and lies I am told I constantly
hold.
Now I am open to hear your version or insight, but I give no guarantees as to whether
I will agree, and probably not, based on its assumptions which I regard as heresy.
everything into his division. It sounds like you are going down this road.
Now if I am wrong, please correct me. It seems this is the way you are interpreting
things, which is an alien way of reading scripture for me, as I have never heard it in
detail but have seen its outworkings in the projections and lies I am told I constantly
hold.
Now I am open to hear your version or insight, but I give no guarantees as to whether
I will agree, and probably not, based on its assumptions which I regard as heresy.
E
If you dig deeper into this story the real power of "manifold" grace is uncovered.
We must remember when reading stories like this that the real motivation of the pharisees scheming was to catch Jesus disobeying the Law. If they could do that, they could bring him before Caiaphas and have him legally killed.
The Pharisees had no right to stone the woman at all, because the man she was committing adultery was not made manifest directly. Leviticus 20.10 shows us the penalty for both a man and woman caught in Adultery. Both man and not just the woman were to be stoned.
Numbers 5.11-29 shows us the test for Jealousy that had to be done by a Priest, when a husband believed his wife was caught in the act of adultery. The penalty there is not death by stoning, but becoming barren and a curse among her people if she failed the test of Jealousy.
We are not told if the woman was married or a harlot, we are just told she was caught in the act of Adultery....So the Pharisees were lying both ways, if she was married they were wrong, because of Numbers 5. The Law of Moses said both her and her and male both had to be stoned, not just her.
We see the obvious act of grace towards the woman in sparing her from lies of the enemy, what people may miss is the grace Jesus had towards the man who had sex with her, and this is personal opinion and not found in scripture, but I believe it was either the youngest pharisee who dropped his stone last or many of the Pharisees that were present.
Jesus called them all out, if you are without SIN, then cast the first stone. We see grace for even his enemies and organized religion, just not the woman.
We also see swift Judgement by Jesus for the lies they made up to try and trap him. By writing in the dust before the pharisees, Jesus was fulfilling Jeremiah 17.13...those that reject him they shall be written in the earth....
We then see the manifold grace of getting a choice back by not letting SIN have dominion over us.
We must remember when reading stories like this that the real motivation of the pharisees scheming was to catch Jesus disobeying the Law. If they could do that, they could bring him before Caiaphas and have him legally killed.
The Pharisees had no right to stone the woman at all, because the man she was committing adultery was not made manifest directly. Leviticus 20.10 shows us the penalty for both a man and woman caught in Adultery. Both man and not just the woman were to be stoned.
Numbers 5.11-29 shows us the test for Jealousy that had to be done by a Priest, when a husband believed his wife was caught in the act of adultery. The penalty there is not death by stoning, but becoming barren and a curse among her people if she failed the test of Jealousy.
We are not told if the woman was married or a harlot, we are just told she was caught in the act of Adultery....So the Pharisees were lying both ways, if she was married they were wrong, because of Numbers 5. The Law of Moses said both her and her and male both had to be stoned, not just her.
We see the obvious act of grace towards the woman in sparing her from lies of the enemy, what people may miss is the grace Jesus had towards the man who had sex with her, and this is personal opinion and not found in scripture, but I believe it was either the youngest pharisee who dropped his stone last or many of the Pharisees that were present.
Jesus called them all out, if you are without SIN, then cast the first stone. We see grace for even his enemies and organized religion, just not the woman.
We also see swift Judgement by Jesus for the lies they made up to try and trap him. By writing in the dust before the pharisees, Jesus was fulfilling Jeremiah 17.13...those that reject him they shall be written in the earth....
We then see the manifold grace of getting a choice back by not letting SIN have dominion over us.
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:22
“At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”
This is what the Lord says:
“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
Jeremiah 31
But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Ezekiel 11:19
Ok, but this does not actually take me any further.
It appears you see great insight, and I am happy for you, as long as you walk
in love and share the redeeming nature of Christ.
Now I know some who get disturbed by sharing in particular ways, but that does
not define whether something is of the Lord or not.
I listened to some totally wrong people and I warm to them, until I know what they
mean and preach. It is the meaning and content that matters, and often the Lord
sends the best in some most unlikely packages. Samson was an odd guy, and so
was John the Baptist, and David was very full on, not the types we could easily
relate to.
So please do not get me wrong, those I oppose I do so for very good reasons,
and what they share and encourage for me is the enemy. I know this because
it is they who made me their enemy, not the other way around.
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
John 20:22
“At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”
This is what the Lord says:
“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
Jeremiah 31
But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Ezekiel 11:19
Ok, but this does not actually take me any further.
It appears you see great insight, and I am happy for you, as long as you walk
in love and share the redeeming nature of Christ.
Now I know some who get disturbed by sharing in particular ways, but that does
not define whether something is of the Lord or not.
I listened to some totally wrong people and I warm to them, until I know what they
mean and preach. It is the meaning and content that matters, and often the Lord
sends the best in some most unlikely packages. Samson was an odd guy, and so
was John the Baptist, and David was very full on, not the types we could easily
relate to.
So please do not get me wrong, those I oppose I do so for very good reasons,
and what they share and encourage for me is the enemy. I know this because
it is they who made me their enemy, not the other way around.
Wrong, Saul was made a new man, David was given a new heart after God's own heart, all those whom God anointed of His Spirit were born again inwardly and circumcised in the heart. If being born again of God's Spirit only happened after the cross, then why did Jesus expect the Pharisee Nicodemus to know this truth before the cross?
John 3:1-10 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
John 3:1-10 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
How are people born again "before" Christ died on the cross, was buried, then rose again and then ascended to the right hand of the Father to sit down because His work for our redemption is finished.
There were no people "born-again" in the Old Testament as in the Holy Spirit being in them as one spirit and joined with Jesus in them before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.
We all had to die with Christ on the cross first before we became new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. That is the old man was crucified with Christ so that the new man in Christ which is the new heart could come forth and be joined to Christ. Romans 6:6 ; Gal 2:20, Col 2:11
Paul told us exactly what he process is to have the Holy spirit to come and stay within us forever.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Jesus knew this truth when He told us that the Holy Spirit is "with" them now but that He "will be in them" to stay forever. Will be is speaking of the future after Christ rose from the dead.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
There were no people "born-again" in the Old Testament as in the Holy Spirit being in them as one spirit and joined with Jesus in them before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.
We all had to die with Christ on the cross first before we became new creations in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. That is the old man was crucified with Christ so that the new man in Christ which is the new heart could come forth and be joined to Christ. Romans 6:6 ; Gal 2:20, Col 2:11
Paul told us exactly what he process is to have the Holy spirit to come and stay within us forever.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Jesus knew this truth when He told us that the Holy Spirit is "with" them now but that He "will be in them" to stay forever. Will be is speaking of the future after Christ rose from the dead.
John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
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The above makes me think of some great themes.
"People that try to" - this is implying the old and new covenant are not actually linked.
But Jesus is the cornerstone of the Old covenant that means it can become the new
covenant.
In buildings, the cornerstone was the last stone laid. But the Jews rejected Him.
If the old covenant is just rejected then so is Christ.
And the slip, God rejecting us, is not the point, it is the living relationship that
confirms we are in Him. But if this has died, we are no different than the sinners
who are under judgement.
And it is hard to realise such an open easy believism view could destroy the very
work of Christ but it does because it excludes the whole of Israel which testifies
to the nature of man and Gods grace through sacrifice in working with them.
What is the fruit of this heresy is some like John Crowder and his general tenor
of teaching and approach.
Biblical response to John Crowder’s Hypergrace video – Spirit Body Soul
So much lying and slander takes place and does take place because the audience
what mysticism and the super-natural - woooh - and see the alternative as boring
repressed emotional conformity.
This was an example to me in long discussions I had with an ardent Todd Bentley
follower. He remembered the blessing of God in the 70's and wanted this again
and saw Todd as a means of this. It is like a drug, which got switched off and they
want it on, but do not know how or why it went away.
But this is a poor foundation to spiritual reality.
If you read the link you will see exactly the same factual problems these people
have when the truth of what they teach is brought to their notice.
The simple lying and lack of integrity should make all the christians leave, but
this is testimony to what type of believers we are now talking about in the
church.
"People that try to" - this is implying the old and new covenant are not actually linked.
But Jesus is the cornerstone of the Old covenant that means it can become the new
covenant.
In buildings, the cornerstone was the last stone laid. But the Jews rejected Him.
If the old covenant is just rejected then so is Christ.
And the slip, God rejecting us, is not the point, it is the living relationship that
confirms we are in Him. But if this has died, we are no different than the sinners
who are under judgement.
And it is hard to realise such an open easy believism view could destroy the very
work of Christ but it does because it excludes the whole of Israel which testifies
to the nature of man and Gods grace through sacrifice in working with them.
What is the fruit of this heresy is some like John Crowder and his general tenor
of teaching and approach.
Biblical response to John Crowder’s Hypergrace video – Spirit Body Soul
So much lying and slander takes place and does take place because the audience
what mysticism and the super-natural - woooh - and see the alternative as boring
repressed emotional conformity.
This was an example to me in long discussions I had with an ardent Todd Bentley
follower. He remembered the blessing of God in the 70's and wanted this again
and saw Todd as a means of this. It is like a drug, which got switched off and they
want it on, but do not know how or why it went away.
But this is a poor foundation to spiritual reality.
If you read the link you will see exactly the same factual problems these people
have when the truth of what they teach is brought to their notice.
The simple lying and lack of integrity should make all the christians leave, but
this is testimony to what type of believers we are now talking about in the
church.
People that try to "marry" the Old Covenant with the New Covenant always miss what Christ has accomplished on the cross and burial resurrection and ascension - and that we are with Him there too.
This is why they have the false notion that God will "reject" them as He did in the Old Covenant.
That's human reasoning not based on scripture, which also shows you do not truly know who Christ is.
1 Peter 1:10-11"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Peter 1:10-11"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This is a very open question. It rests on what it means to be born again.
Some hold being born again is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27
It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah.
Luke 2:26
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
John 17:6
Knowing Christ is a revelation of God to a person. That person does not need
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be spoken to in this way.
Being born of the Spirit is probably what all the believers in God have had happen
to them throughout history. The difference appears to be the intimacy at pentecost
was empowering of the Kingdom through the Holy Spirit which was not there before.
We are born sheep, we do not become sheep.
God speaks to our hearts and we follow.
Those not following but who have heard the words are not His sheep.
On the mountain of transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear. If they were not born again,
how did they have such a communion with God? How is it possible to be part of the
Kingdom unless the shadow reality was as important as its realisation.
If you say the cross is the ultimate expression of Christ love and acceptance of man
and payment for sin, then even before this demonstration you can be saved through
knowing God, repenting of sin, confessing it and walking in faith in His ways.
It is possible because it is the love and acceptance that saves us, not just its demonstration.
The whole reason for the temple etc was to work towards the demonstration, because it is
working out for us who God is and how he works that is what saves us.
The sacrifice matters, but it is illogical. Why blood, why a lamb, why so intimate, why so
perfect? Because it all draws us to a deeper place within ourselves, so we can know God
speaks here, we need to drop the defences and submit and accept and let love out and let
love in. The gospel is a mystery and also simple and also profound.
The more you look the more the walk with Israel is the walk with ourselves.
Some hold being born again is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27
It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah.
Luke 2:26
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
John 17:6
Knowing Christ is a revelation of God to a person. That person does not need
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be spoken to in this way.
Being born of the Spirit is probably what all the believers in God have had happen
to them throughout history. The difference appears to be the intimacy at pentecost
was empowering of the Kingdom through the Holy Spirit which was not there before.
We are born sheep, we do not become sheep.
God speaks to our hearts and we follow.
Those not following but who have heard the words are not His sheep.
On the mountain of transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear. If they were not born again,
how did they have such a communion with God? How is it possible to be part of the
Kingdom unless the shadow reality was as important as its realisation.
If you say the cross is the ultimate expression of Christ love and acceptance of man
and payment for sin, then even before this demonstration you can be saved through
knowing God, repenting of sin, confessing it and walking in faith in His ways.
It is possible because it is the love and acceptance that saves us, not just its demonstration.
The whole reason for the temple etc was to work towards the demonstration, because it is
working out for us who God is and how he works that is what saves us.
The sacrifice matters, but it is illogical. Why blood, why a lamb, why so intimate, why so
perfect? Because it all draws us to a deeper place within ourselves, so we can know God
speaks here, we need to drop the defences and submit and accept and let love out and let
love in. The gospel is a mystery and also simple and also profound.
The more you look the more the walk with Israel is the walk with ourselves.
The Spirit of Christ came on people for certain tasks such as being king and a priest or a prophet. The Holy Spirit also came on people to write scripture - moved by the Holy Spirit. None of them became sons of God born again from the Holy Spirit of God - Christ had to die on the cross first. Those in the Old Testament were NOT born again as believers are today after Christ's resurrection from the dead.
Old Testament believers had the Spirit of God come upon them and, according to this verse, within them. But this is not the same as New Testament believers having the Holy Spirit dwelling permanently on the inside.
The Holy Spirit came and went only upon select people in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament, all believers have the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).
Notice that the Spirit of Christ was in these Old Testament believers. Jesus didn’t just come into being at His physical birth in Bethlehem. He was in the beginning (John 1:1-2). He created everything, physical and spiritual, that exists today (Colossians 1:16-17).
Old Testament believers had the Spirit of God come upon them and, according to this verse, within them. But this is not the same as New Testament believers having the Holy Spirit dwelling permanently on the inside.
The Holy Spirit came and went only upon select people in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament, all believers have the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).
Notice that the Spirit of Christ was in these Old Testament believers. Jesus didn’t just come into being at His physical birth in Bethlehem. He was in the beginning (John 1:1-2). He created everything, physical and spiritual, that exists today (Colossians 1:16-17).
The only reason some people "try" to make it look like the Holy Spirit was in Saul in the OT like He is in the believer in the New Covenant is to try to show the false notion that the Holy Spirit will leave us like Saul. Even though Jesus said the complete opposite.
John 14:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
John says that the Spirit of truth which is the Spirit of Christ is with us forever too.
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
We have a New Covenant built upon better promises of which the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.
We have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ and we can believe what He says about the Holy Spirit being with us forever. We can trust Him! Try the spirits and see which one brings life....
John 14:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
John says that the Spirit of truth which is the Spirit of Christ is with us forever too.
2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
We have a New Covenant built upon better promises of which the blood of Jesus speaks of better things.
We have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ and we can believe what He says about the Holy Spirit being with us forever. We can trust Him! Try the spirits and see which one brings life....
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