A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[7seasrekeyed]

What I don't understand is why angels would need to have a language. What I understand even less is why any of us would need to speak in an angel language. If anyone could answer these questions I would be not only grateful, but amazed.

Genesis records that God Himself spoke

so...God created language ... telepathy is also possible but language it is apparently

we see God, angels and humans speaking all through the Bible

when we suddenly understand something from scripture...or receive more clarity, isn't that the Holy Spirit speaking to our mind?

I can only say it seems to be the way God wants it and therefore created it that way..angels, as I am sure you know, are also created

as far as people praying in an angelic language, might that be in spiritual battle? we see with Daniel that God sent the answer to his prayer right away, but the angel had a battle on the way down before delivering it

I don't know and I wouldn't say that is necessarily the answer...just speculation because we are not told for sure

 

[UnderGrace]

Well, having spoken/prayed in tongues once, I would say that I have a different understanding of what I experienced.

To be transparent I really do not have the same understanding of the instruction that Paul is giving to the Corinthians

However, I think that if God wanted to give the gift of tongues to someone bearing witness of the gospel to someone of a different language I absolutely believe He would give the gift to the person so the listener could hear the message and understand.

I do not think it a salvation issue, in terms of this defines or un-defines who is a believer.

You have given me insight into my experience so I appreciate that.

I don't understand how you mean that

are you saying you have a different understanding?

 

[UnderGrace]

Maybe, maybe not. The only reference to "angelic language" is in 1 Cor 13:1; I don't think that example can be used in any sort of doctrinal way regarding tongues... for or against. The immediate context just doesn't support that interpretation.

Mr. Dino, I can only see two possibilities, either a language that has been in use here on this planet, or one that is used in Heaven.

What is this "tongues" then?

Are you saying it is a specific language created by God for use to communicate with Him?

 

[Didymous]

Paul and about 4 or 5 others recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit AFTER SALVATION AND WATER BAPTISM
By the laying on of hands.
As vco mentions.
Oh wait,cessationists do not go there.
Pretend my verses dont exist and carry on

Maybe you just don't understand the timeline of the different books of the bible.

Genesis records that God Himself spoke

so...God created language ... telepathy is also possible but language it is apparently

we see God, angels and humans speaking all through the Bible

when we suddenly understand something from scripture...or receive more clarity, isn't that the Holy Spirit speaking to our mind?

I can only say it seems to be the way God wants it and therefore created it that way..angels, as I am sure you know, are also created

as far as people praying in an angelic language, might that be in spiritual battle? we see with Daniel that God sent the answer to his prayer right away, but the angel had a battle on the way down before delivering it

I don't know and I wouldn't say that is necessarily the answer...just speculation because we are not told for sure

Thanks for your response, 7. Doesn't clear it up, but at least something for my brain to chew on. I'd have an easier time accepting it as something real if there was another verse somewhere in the new testament to support it. Paul clearly used hyperbole, as did Jesus.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Well, having spoken/prayed in tongues once, I would say that I have a different understanding of what I experienced.

To be transparent I really do not have the same understanding of the instruction that Paul is giving to the Corinthians

However, I think that if God wanted to give the gift of tongues to someone bearing witness of the gospel to someone of a different language I absolutely believe He would give the gift to the person so the listener could hear the message and understand.

I do not think it a salvation issue, in terms of this defines or un-defines who is a believer.

You have given me insight into my experience so I appreciate that.

ok got it now

I did read where you stated you prayed in tongues once. your understanding may be and I choose to believe what you say, different than mine. I am a different person and have different needs etc and a different walk...both are valid if we are in Christ and it is God who gives the gifts although it appears we can pray for them and desire them, according to Paul

and you have a different understanding of the instructions given by Paul...

I find that praying in tongues silently is very helpful when talking to unbelievers or witnessing. it seems my mind actually works better LOL! that's a true statement for me

I agree it is not a salvation issue. if it were, then those who were saved but had not spoken in tongues would not have been saved. that alone is contradictory so that should not be an issue, but again, another abuse some folks have entertained and burdened others with

okay

 

[Dino246]

EVERY COMMENT that you can make, can be answered by my 9 Segment Study.

I have NO INTEREST in Discussing this, or Debating it with anybody anymore.

READ THE STUDY, if you want to KNOW WHAT I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE and has been confirmed in my heart by the Holy Spirit.

IT IS A SETTLED ISSUE FOR ME and most other Non-Charismatics, like the expression goes: You are whipping a dead horse.

There you go yelling again.

You are welcome to believe as you do, and to do so for whatever reasons you like. You aren't interested in further discussion; we get it. However, you started this thread. You killed the horse and handed out the whips. Own your responsibility and stop blaming those who disagree with you.

 

[Dino246]

1 Corinthians 13:1 (NJB)
1 Though I command languages both human and angelic—if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

No, that verse refers to the Booming Voice, Eloquence, and the Voice of Authority of ANGELS.

Speculate much?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Maybe you just don't understand the timeline of the different books of the bible.


Thanks for your response, 7. Doesn't clear it up, but at least something for my brain to chew on. I'd have an easier time accepting it as something real if there was another verse somewhere in the new testament to support it. Paul clearly used hyperbole, as did Jesus.

you know, I don't think there is. I've looked because of how some people talk about it, but...

considering the topic of I Corinthians, Paul may very well have been being a tad sarcastic...you see this now and then in his letters

good for brains to keep busy

although it does seem angels have language(s)

no idea bout your timeline comment...which I just noticed

 

[UnderGrace]

I will admit the experience, made me think about things,

I am thankful for the experience because I gained understanding, but that is as far as I can go.

ok got it now

I did read where you stated you prayed in tongues once. your understanding may be and I choose to believe what you say, different than mine. I am a different person and have different needs etc and a different walk...both are valid if we are in Christ and it is God who gives the gifts although it appears we can pray for them and desire them, according to Paul

and you have a different understanding of the instructions given by Paul...

I find that praying in tongues silently is very helpful when talking to unbelievers or witnessing. it seems my mind actually works better LOL! that's a true statement for me

I agree it is not a salvation issue. if it were, then those who were saved but had not spoken in tongues would not have been saved. that alone is contradictory so that should not be an issue, but again, another abuse some folks have entertained and burdened others with

okay

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh...Didymous...did not realize the timeline comment was not for me

fuhgit about it

 

[Dino246]

Mr. Dino, I can only see two possibilities, either a language that has been in use here on this planet, or one that is used in Heaven.

What is this "tongues" then?

Are you saying it is a specific language created by God for use to communicate with Him?

The verse says, "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but have not love...."

That is not a doctrinal statement about the tongues of angels. It neither establishes "tongues of angels" as a language in which men speak (in any context), nor denies it. It is an example used by Paul to make a point about love or the lack of it.

I prefer not to speculate about what "tongues of angels" is... or isn't, beyond that example. Scripture simply says nothing about the language of angels otherwise. We might as well discuss the ambient temperature at the South pole of Krypton, because we have an equivalent amount of actual information.

 

[VCO]

Speculate much?

Matthew 2:19-20 (NCV)
19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream while he was in Egypt.
20 The angel said, “Get up! Take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, because the people who were trying to kill the child are now dead.“

Matthew 28:5-8 (NJB)
5 But the angel spoke; and he said to the women, ‘There is no need for you to be afraid. I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said he would. Come and see the place where he lay,
7 then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has risen from the dead and now he is going ahead of you to Galilee; that is where you will see him.” Look! I have told you.'
8 Filled with awe and great joy the women came quickly away from the tomb and ran to tell his disciples.

Acts 8:26 (CSBBible)
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip: "Get up and go south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is the desert road.)

Revelation 14:9 (CSBBible)
9 And another, a third angel, followed them and spoke with a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

 

[VCO]

Speculate much?

Revelation 14:18 (CSBBible)
18 Yet another angel, who had authority over fire, came from the altar, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Use your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vineyard of the earth, because its grapes have ripened."

Revelation 12:10 (ESV)
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

 

[VCO]

There you go yelling again.

You are welcome to believe as you do, and to do so for whatever reasons you like. You aren't interested in further discussion; we get it. However, you started this thread. You killed the horse and handed out the whips. Own your responsibility and stop blaming those who disagree with you.

I am not YELLING when I put something in all caps. I do it to to emphasize my statement.

I do not care what FACE BOOK calls it, I have NEVER HAD A FACE BOOK ACCOUNT, and NEVER WILL, and I DO NOT PLAY BY THEIR RULES.

How Wude! The typical attitude of charismatics.

 

[Dino246]

I am not YELLING when I put something in all caps. I do it to to emphasize my statement.

I do not care what FACE BOOK calls it, I have NEVER HAD A FACE BOOK ACCOUNT, and NEVER WILL, and I DO NOT PLAY BY THEIR RULES.

And I do not care what you call it or why you do it. I consider it rude and unnecessary.

How Wude! The typical attitude of charismatics.

Fallacy: guilt by association. Is this the best you've got?

 

[Dino246]

Matthew 2:19-20 (NCV)
19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord spoke to Joseph in a dream while he was in Egypt.
20 The angel said, “Get up! Take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, because the people who were trying to kill the child are now dead.“

Matthew 28:5-8 (NJB)
5 But the angel spoke; and he said to the women, ‘There is no need for you to be afraid. I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.
6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said he would. Come and see the place where he lay,
7 then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has risen from the dead and now he is going ahead of you to Galilee; that is where you will see him.” Look! I have told you.'
8 Filled with awe and great joy the women came quickly away from the tomb and ran to tell his disciples.

Acts 8:26 (CSBBible)
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip: "Get up and go south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is the desert road.)

Revelation 14:9 (CSBBible)
9 And another, a third angel, followed them and spoke with a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Earlier you said, regarding 1 Corinthians 13:1, "No, that verse refers to the Booming Voice, Eloquence, and the Voice of Authority of ANGELS."

There is nothing in the verses you quoted here about "booming voices" or "eloquence". As to "authority", that didn't work too well with Lot... or his wife. Plus, in the context of 1 Corinthians 13, the clear meaning is "language" as in English, Greek, Hebrew, etc., not tone, volume, or word choice.

 

[dcontroversal]

What I don't understand is why angels would need to have a language. What I understand even less is why any of us would need to speak in an angel language. If anyone could answer these questions I would be not only grateful, but amazed.

I would like someone to quote a few scriptures of angels talking to men and men not understanding them......every time they spoke in the bible it was understood by all that heard it.........

 

[VCO]

I neither think it against the Holy Spirit, nor something the speaker is making up.

I think it is apart from this, it is a phenomena of the brain, that is the ecstatic utterances.

I neither think it against the Holy Spirit, nor something the speaker is making up.

I think it is apart from this, it is a phenomena of the brain, that is the ecstatic utterances.

Now you can see why I do NOT want to debate, nor discuss this issue with them. It always ends like this, and some times worse, but extremely rare will someone say in a loving manor, "I believe the opposite of you, so we will just have to agree to disagree."

I examined the bath water, and what was in it, is a very used Rubber Doll.

 

[VCO]

And you back up those facts by....?

That is what my 9 Segment is ALL ABOUT.

 

[VCO]

That is unsupportable. "Unbelieving", in context, means "don't believe in Jesus as Messiah."

Your view twists what it means to be "unbelieving" and makes it context-dependent. That's called "equivocation" and it is fallacious.

If you argue that tongues are for unbelievers, as you have, then unbelievers must mean "those who don't believe in Jesus as Messiah." Those Jews who heard the message and were saved in Acts 2 were those who made the transition from not believing to believing in Jesus as Messiah. They didn't transition from not believing to believing that Gentiles could be saved.

Anyway, as you have said several times, you don't want to debate... though you keep debating. I notice that you denigrate those who disagree with you, claiming that their arguments are heated, and yet I also notice that your post suggests a degree of exasperation, judging by the amount of all-caps text. Either your assertion that "heated arguments" are a sign of erroneous belief isn't sound after all... or you'll come up with a justification to excuse your heated arguments.

Yes, that means that you have earned a permanent place on my IGNORE LIST.