A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
528
99
28
Who is to say there is not a heavenly language that no scientific approach will verify.
In order for something, anything, to be 'language', whether spoken somewhere here on earth, by some alien civilization, or on a spiritual/heavenly plane, must minimally, at its absolute most basic level, consist of two things: (1) discrete units of various sorts, and (2) rules and principles which govern the way these discrete units (whatever they may consist of) can be combined and ordered.

Modern tongues-speech contains neither of these; it is non cognitive non-language utterance.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,580
1,871
113
So I won't be accused of putting words in your mouth what exactly does that verse have to do with people who believe tongues haven't ceased?
What we believe if it is not in Gods word no matter how ardently it is believed is still not biblical and therefore must be corrected to align with Gods word.

Simply put personal experience does not determine spirituality.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,580
1,871
113
Careful! You know by disagreeing, even with just posting Scripture, to some people that is viewed as attacking and not being loving.
Thanks for the warning. Hard to believe that some will not accept Gods word as the ultimate authority in our life.

Christ has compassion on all of us because we all fall far short of the standard that God reasonably expects of His children.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Careful! You know by disagreeing, even with just posting Scripture, to some people that is viewed as attacking and not being loving.
Tis true, a very personal and subjective view point.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
"Test all spirits..." Demanding proof of what we CAN see and hear isn't science, it's prudence and good God given common sense.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,993
2,853
113
You want to PROVE your ecstatic utterances are a LANGUAGE ? ? ?

There are Electric Language Translators. SUCH AS THIS DEVICE:


Langogo AI Language Translator Device with Wi-Fi Hotspot, 92 Languages Instant Two-Way Voice Translator with eSIM Inside, 3.1inch Retina Display, Noise-Cancelling, Pocket Translator for Travel, White

It is on Amazon.com.


Do you think that a modern day tongues speaker can make this Languages Translator, translate the ecstatic utterances, that Charismatics want to call tongues ? ? ? My guess is no matter how long you try even though this device has 92 languages in it, it will always TRANSLATE ZERO tongues speakers. They claim it is 95% accurate.



You could also use this device to translate to test your Interpreter ALSO. Simply have a group of from your congregation memorize and learn a small portion of Scripture in different foreign languages, TO TEST A CANDIDATE FOR THE POSITION OF INTERPRETER.

My guess is YOU WILL NEVER FIND A RELIABLE INTERPRETER.

The Purpose for tongues and their interpretations, was to validate the New Testament was as much the WORD OF GOD, as the Old Testament was, and that time WAS PAST, once the New Testament was COMPLETE.


Mark 16:20 (ASV)
20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
Lol.... I was going to record a song in tongues but, I like your post better! :)
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
OK VCO, just to be fair, now I'm going to play devil's advocate...

Question: Do you doubt that, if God wished and it served his purpose, He could cause someone to speak in tongues even today?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,993
2,853
113
OK VCO, just to be fair, now I'm going to play devil's advocate...

Question: Do you doubt that, if God wished and it served his purpose, He could cause someone to speak in tongues even today?

If there was a Remote tribe that have never been contacted, that had their roots in the People of Israel, YES, if they heard in their own native dialektos the mighty Works of God. I would believe that.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
So, if out of the blue I began to witness and speak in Chinese... You would doubt me?
 

Mission21

Pathfinder
Mar 12, 2019
198
196
43
So, if out of the blue I began to witness and speak in Chinese... You would doubt me?
I read a story..some years ago.
- It happened in early 20th century.
This person ( Christian ) went to China and started speaking in Chinese to people.
- She never learned / spoke Chinese language before!
Later on, she found out that she was giving Gospel message in Chinese.
- She was involved in Pentecostal movement..during early/pioneering days of movement.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,993
2,853
113
So, if out of the blue I began to witness and speak in Chinese... You would doubt me?


If it is NOT according to BIBLICAL instructions, then I would DOUBT YOU, and have to TEST the SPIRITS to see if it is a DEMON that has given you that power. HERE is PAUL's instructions or guidelines on how TONGUES must be done, which the Charismatic Movement IGNORES.


1 John 4:1 (HCSB)
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


It is Biblical to TEST the spirit of the INTERPRETER.


1 John 4:1 (HCSB)
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


That can be done by having no more than a dozen would be sufficient members of a congregation, memorize and learn a couple verses in a foreign language and then have each member memorize and learn a different couple of verses in a different foreign language. Then have the interpreter correctly interpret all the various languages.


1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
23 All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful;
but not all things edify.
24 Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's.


That should eliminate all but a couple of people for self-edification, who currently speak in tongues. Because it is forbidden.


1 Corinthians 14:18-40 (HCSB)
18 I thank God that I speak in ⌊other⌋ languages more than all of you;
19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, in order to teach others also, than 10,000 words in ⌊another⌋ language.
20 Brothers, don’t be childish in your thinking, but be infants in regard to evil and adult in your thinking.
21 It is written in the law: I will speak to these people by people of other languages and by the lips of foreigners, and even then, they will not listen to Me, says the Lord. [.The Nation Israel, it is GOD SPEAKING THROUGH THEM.]
22 It follows that speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages is intended as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers [.that are JEWS.]. But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
23 Therefore, if the whole church assembles together and all are speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24 But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all.
25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is really among you.”
26 What then is ⌊the conclusion⌋, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, ⌊another⌋ language, or an interpretation. All things must be done for edification [not self-edification].
27 If any person speaks in ⌊another⌋ language, there should be only two, or at the most three, each in turn, and someone must interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, that person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should evaluate.
30 But if something has been revealed to another person sitting there, the first prophet should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may learn and everyone may be encouraged.
32 And the prophets’ spirits are under the control of the prophets,
33 since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.
36 Did the word of God originate from you, or did it come to you only?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that what I write to you is the Lord’s command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, he will be ignored.
39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in ⌊other⌋ languages.
40 But everything must be done decently and in order.


How many of these guidelines are TOTALLY IGNORED in the CHARISMATIC CHURCHES TODAY ? ? ?

How then can it be of GOD ? ? ?
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
In order for something, anything, to be 'language', whether spoken somewhere here on earth, by some alien civilization, or on a spiritual/heavenly plane, must minimally, at its absolute most basic level, consist of two things: (1) discrete units of various sorts, and (2) rules and principles which govern the way these discrete units (whatever they may consist of) can be combined and ordered.

Modern tongues-speech contains neither of these; it is non cognitive non-language utterance.


Are you applying what you have seen in these horrific videos of this kundalini spirit invading the Charismatic movement? If so, I am agreeing with your assessment 100%

I have watched several more videos and NOTHING is even remotely familiar with my local church and their worship.

Now, if you are clumping what you saw in those videos to ALL Pentecostal worship, then I will ask you to PROVE IT TO ME, since I have proven your HYPERBOLE theory being the direct beliefs that was created and is still backed by the Christian Baptist's of the Restoration Movement!! In other words, the Hyperbole theory of Tongues, is a load of horse manure and specifically was created by the Baptist Movement in mid 1800's.

Now, give me proof that ALL Pentecostal Worship falls under your example ^ without your views being ASSOCIATED WITH THE BAPTIST?
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
528
99
28
Are you applying what you have seen in these horrific videos of this kundalini spirit invading the Charismatic movement? If so, I am agreeing with your assessment 100%
No. I will say though that my experience has been that if a given video of a tongues-speaker does not conform to a given person's views, it's usually labeled as "kundalini", "demonic", etc. (pick your negative term).

I have watched several more videos and NOTHING is even remotely familiar with my local church and their worship.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a short clip (about a minute of so will do) of what you regard as correct tongues-speech; maybe something from either yourself or a fellow parishioner.

Now, if you are clumping what you saw in those videos to ALL Pentecostal worship, then I will ask you to PROVE IT TO ME, since I have proven your HYPERBOLE theory being the direct beliefs that was created and is still backed by the Christian Baptist's of the Restoration Movement!! In other words, the Hyperbole theory of Tongues, is a load of horse manure and specifically was created by the Baptist Movement in mid 1800's.

Now, give me proof that ALL Pentecostal Worship falls under your example ^ without your views being ASSOCIATED WITH THE BAPTIST?
No, of course not - many videos are obviously people putting on a show, but many are also actual and sincere.

First, I'm not a Baptist and as I have mentioned, I do not identify with either of the two terms "cessationist" and "continuationist".

Grammatical/stylistic hyperbole is what it is - you can blame it on whomever you wish, but hyperbole is hyperbole.

Paul was using superlative, hyperbolic, and extreme examples to showcase the superiority of love. Given this contextual consideration, “tongues of angels” was a rhetorical expression, used by Paul to make a point.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,993
2,853
113
I read a story..some years ago.
- It happened in early 20th century.
This person ( Christian ) went to China and started speaking in Chinese to people.
- She never learned / spoke Chinese language before!
Later on, she found out that she was giving Gospel message in Chinese.
- She was involved in Pentecostal movement..during early/pioneering days of movement.

I have heard the same story, but it WAS NEVER VERIFIED. Sounds like a desperate tongues speaker, who made up a story that might be true. She totally disregarded Paul's instructions on How TONGUES were to be used.


1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (HCSB)
33 since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.


RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TONGUES SHOULD BE USED.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
What gets me is that the "tongues" crowd here are the ones who get the angriest, cast aspersions, and contradict themselves in attempting to put words in others mouths.... WHAT SPIRIT IS THAT!!!
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
No. I will say though that my experience has been that if a given video of a tongues-speaker does not conform to a given person's views, it's usually labeled as "kundalini", "demonic", etc. (pick your negative term).
I am told by a friend of mine, who I am trying to introduce to the Lord (she is a highly educated, extremely intelligent, certified member of MENSA, and her list of credentials are actually impressive), in her studies (she is a professor of religions, and her mother is one of only a few linguistics alive (we are discussing the dialects/phonics of all human language + I asked this atheist to give me her impression of the Angelic Tongues)) she instructs me that the author and creator of the video in question in this thread, is someone uninformed and definitely uneducated, because this IS NOT A FORM OF KUNDALINI.

She thinks the video creator has a grasp on what can be viewed on his video, does not represent my/his God (Yahweh). But it is not actual Kundalini. She even wonders (since she understands the scripture our highest regards to our God) how they can shake their heads so violently and still appear to be reading from the Bible.

But it's the way they are contorting themselves, acting like animals, that has convinced her it is a form or either Celtic or Gaelic Paganism animal worship.

She has been to a few of our church services, and wonders how anyone could be trying to relate what is on the video, to what she saw in our worship.

And as an agnostic, who believes in a higher power, but not quite sure what that is yet. Feels like the Pentecostal worship, is as close to what Paul wrote about, compared to other Denominations she continually visits.

Not that her opinion matters, but I find it odd that someone who has in depth knowledge of paganism, satanism, wiccan, voodoo, all forms of religions, muslim, judaism (her husband is a true pure blooded Jew), Christianity, etc, etc, etc...see's on this video paganism, not hinduism.




Perhaps you would be so kind as to post a short clip (about a minute of so will do) of what you regard as correct tongues-speech; maybe something from either yourself or a fellow parishioner.
Wow, that is like tempting God, to think someone can just get on camera and put on a show that does not cross any sort of line. I don't when or how, but I could set up a camera. And when i am in my prayer room, if/whenever the Spirit of God takes control, maybe it will be ok.

It worries me when these big time preachers see the camera on them, and suddenly they rattle off something and then stomp their feet like God actually connected with them.

Playing church scares the literal begeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus out of me!!



No, of course not - many videos are obviously people putting on a show, but many are also actual and sincere.

First, I'm not a Baptist and as I have mentioned, I do not identify with either of the two terms "cessationist" and "continuationist".

Grammatical/stylistic hyperbole is what it is - you can blame it on whomever you wish, but hyperbole is hyperbole.

Paul was using superlative, hyperbolic, and extreme examples to showcase the superiority of love. Given this contextual consideration, “tongues of angels” was a rhetorical expression, used by Paul to make a point.
I claim Baptist, because from the mid 1800 Restoration Movement led by the Baptist, other Denominations followed suit. So basically, anyone who thinks on line as I mentioned, technically, whether they are Baptists, another Denomination or Independent. They are following a Baptist tradition that became a staple in beliefs.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
What gets me is that the "tongues" crowd here are the ones who get the angriest, cast aspersions, and contradict themselves in attempting to put words in others mouths.... WHAT SPIRIT IS THAT!!!


Show me where I have done that?
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
I'm sorry, you're right, I was just generalizing based upon what I've become accustomed to in this thread.... I should not have assumed you were angry at all with VOC for siding with some obscure 100y/o Baptist movement by calling it a load of horse crap. My sincere apologies....
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
I'm sorry, you're right, I was just generalizing based upon what I've become accustomed to in this thread.... I should not have assumed you were angry at all with VOC for siding with some obscure 100y/o Baptist movement by calling it a load of horse crap. My sincere apologies....


If you view the last 4 pages, you will see that VCO and I are on the same page concerning the video at hand, the sleeve tattoo person who cheated on his wife and married a young girl being labelled as a prophet, and several other beliefs we align with. We also distinguished there is a difference between the Charismatic Movement and concrete Pentecostal beliefs and fundamentals.

I have no problem with VCO at all, and believe he is a true wonderful man of God, that I am lucky to have as a Brother in Christ!!

You on the other hand, that is yet to be seen!!