A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

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Mar 14, 2011
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Are you saying there was no grace prior to the coming of Jesus?
This is called the dispensation/age of grace in scripture

Ephesians 3 [Full Chapter]
[ The Mystery Revealed ] For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, ...

That does not mean grace is new..

Again, Please, what your fighting is one small group of dispensationals who believe the OT was saved different than we in the new, That is a VERY SMALL portion.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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If you ask me that then you have not read my posts on the works thread.

That grace (OT) is unmerited. Said to be when the superior bends a knee in kindness to inferior. Word studies are helpful. NT grace is the divine influence upon the heart with its reflection in the life, including gratitude.
What?

Where do you get this?????
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Wow.
You have been led some strange doctrines sis

DCON’s worries are being verified to me

All people were saved by Christ, it does nto matter when they were born. When jesus died, he became the living sacrifice for all men and women, from adam until the last man saved.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Holy Spirit within was not until Jesus resurrected. You are taking scripture out of context.
David was filled wiht the HS (He even asked God not to remove it from him) Saul was given the HS. The NT shows that prophets spoke from God. That was the HS
 
Mar 14, 2011
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One question. When did the church begin?

I just posted the two definitions of grace. The body of Christ has both.

We were discussing the OT prophets compared to the NT.
Church began when the first group of people got together in the name of God and becaome a family of God

Church is not what fr to many NT denominations preach it is.. where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also. That is church.

Israel was also called the church of God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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No, it doesn't. Otherwise they would not have baptized so often.
When did they baptize? The only people I know who were baptised were the children of Levi being ordained as priests, and a gentile who wanted to convert (yet they still were not allowed access to inside the temple)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Take it up with God Stones....Elijah was taken up into heaven.....and the context is the words of Jesus is a man ascending into heaven of his own will like Christ did in Acts...
Jesus said no man has ascended to heaven, I agree with stones on this, He was taken up and his spirit would then have been sent to paradise..

Daniel saw a vision of heaven, But Paul actually went to heaven, Not sure if John actually went there or he had a vision such as Daniel,
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Not really, I am just BURNED OUT from hearing the SAME OLD ARGUMENTS and RESPONSES. Like I said before, I have not heard any new Heated Arguments in 20 Years or so.

I was talking to stones

not you
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Prophesy is foretelling the future.
To Prophesy all things written in the law and the prophets is to declare the word of God. It is not only a reference to the future alone . But is also a reference to the present and the past as the living word does work in those who have the faith that comes from hearing prophecy .

The sign on tongues is not the actual work of God bringing new prophecy or called tongues. Prophecy when it relates to tongues is God's interpretation in all the languages of the world as that which works it in another person. The sign is a curse not a blessing . somehow it was turned upside down and made into a false blessing.

The work of prophecy is the unseen blessing that resides in the new heart of those who did believe what they heard. 3000 souls were added as a sign against those who refuse to hear the word of God and believe God not seen.

No literal sign for those who do believe Simply by faith a new heart and new spirt that walks by faith (the unseen). The confirming sign of tongue confirms those who believe not, no faith. Yet for all that God has spoken concerning it they still refuse to believe prophecy .

Tongues is God's interpretation spoken in languages that confirm faith in these who do believe prophecy (God's living word) .

They had no faith by which they could believe God. Yet they would not hear remains the sign against all unbelievers of any nation. against them .

To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isiah 28:12

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21 22

The sign confirms unbelief (no faith) Not belief (faith) Its either we have the faith of Christ or we do not. If any had not, they do not belong to Him. Jew or Gentile male or female.

These in Jerimiah 44 are those in who the sign confirms yet for all that will they not hear. They make the word of God to no effect through their oral traditions of men .This would seem to be those who do seek after a sign and wonders gospel saying "we will certainly do whatsoever thing goes out of our own mouth and see no evil in doing so .( the mark of a unbeliever) I would be careful how we hear God.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. Jerimiah 44:16-17
 
Mar 14, 2011
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To Prophesy all things written in the law and the prophets is to declare the word of God. It is not only a reference to the future alone . But is also a reference to the present and the past as the living word does work in those who have the faith that comes from hearing prophecy .

The sign on tongues is not the actual work of God bringing new prophecy or called tongues. Prophecy when it relates to tongues is God's interpretation in all the languages of the world as that which works it in another person. The sign is a curse not a blessing . somehow it was turned upside down and made into a false blessing.

The work of prophecy is the unseen blessing that resides in the new heart of those who did believe what they heard. 3000 souls were added as a sign against those who refuse to hear the word of God and believe God not seen.

No literal sign for those who do believe Simply by faith a new heart and new spirt that walks by faith (the unseen). The confirming sign of tongue confirms those who believe not, no faith. Yet for all that God has spoken concerning it they still refuse to believe prophecy .

Tongues is God's interpretation spoken in languages that confirm faith in these who do believe prophecy (God's living word) .

They had no faith by which they could believe God. Yet they would not hear remains the sign against all unbelievers of any nation. against them .

To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. Isiah 28:12

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21 22

The sign confirms unbelief (no faith) Not belief (faith) Its either we have the faith of Christ or we do not. If any had not, they do not belong to Him. Jew or Gentile male or female.

These in Jerimiah 44 are those in who the sign confirms yet for all that will they not hear. They make the word of God to no effect through their oral traditions of men .This would seem to be those who do seek after a sign and wonders gospel saying "we will certainly do whatsoever thing goes out of our own mouth and see no evil in doing so .( the mark of a unbeliever) I would be careful how we hear God.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. Jerimiah 44:16-17
This is not correct

Revelation or inspiration is giving Gods word

Prophecy is the act of fortelling something, It is a tool used by God to prove he is the one true God. Because no false god can tell the future and those events come true.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Holy Spirit within was not until Jesus resurrected. You are taking scripture out of context.
The Holy Spirit came on only as a normative Kings priest, rulers, prophets, and judges. In the NT the Holy Spirit work is how the Lord Jesus said He would be found in the Gospel of John chapters 14 to 16 The Holy Spirit will come upon you and be with you and be in you. And abide with you. That was not the normative we see in the OT. That is what Jesus said.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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What?

Where do you get this?????
OT grace:


H2603​
חָנַן​

chânan​

khaw-nan'​


A primitive root (compare H2583); properly to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): - beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.​

Total KJV occurrences: 77

NT: grace:

G5485​

χάρις​

charis​

khar'-ece


From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).​

Total KJV occurrences: 156


One is unmerited grace. The other is the power of Holy Spirit within us working.

Do really think that I pull stuff from the air EG?

And no need to insult. Remember the word pewsitter? I apologized.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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This is not correct

Revelation or inspiration is giving Gods word

Prophecy is the act of fortelling something, It is a tool used by God to prove he is the one true God. Because no false god can tell the future and those events come true.
Prophecy = gospel
Prophecy = "the revealing of concealed will". To prophesy is to declare the prophecy of God , as the word of God. example (for you shall surely die)

False Prophecy = "the revealing lying will". To prophesy is to declare the false prophecy of the father of lies , Example ( ye shall surely not die.)

One of the purposes of prophecy is the act of fortelling something, a tool used by God to prove he is the one true God. Another is it is a actuate historical record. Another it is a sealed book it becomes it own dictionary and source of how we can hear him through prophecy and the parables how they give us the unseen spiritual understanding .A accurate witness, its witness goes back to the beginning ."Let there be" and it was good ... or helps us understand a future even it remain prophecy. It what those send today with a desire to do the pleasure of God sent out with the gospel (prophecy) to do as prophets prophecy the word of God the gospel of our salvation. No need to add it it or take awy from it.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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When did they baptize? The only people I know who were baptised were the children of Levi being ordained as priests, and a gentile who wanted to convert (yet they still were not allowed access to inside the temple)


I said one time that we have misunderstanding because we don't have a good background on Jewish history and how they worshipped. Mikvah EG..

What is a mikvah?
See Article History. Alternative Titles: mikveh, miqwe. Mikvah, also spelled Mikveh
Mikveh
Mikveh or mikvah is a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism to achieve ritual purity.
en.wikipedia.org
, or Miqwe, (“collection [of water]”), in Judaism, a pool of natural water in which one bathes for the restoration of ritual purity.

It's a great study.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
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This is not correct

Revelation or inspiration is giving Gods word

Prophecy is the act of fortelling something, It is a tool used by God to prove he is the one true God. Because no false god can tell the future and those events come true.


Someone asked me how we know what is a false spirit or Holy Spirit. This came to me yesterday as I was posting on who Holy Spirit is.

Who's your daddy? In Matthew Jesus said Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Father. So who do you call Father? Actually the scriptures say the very same thing. If we all just stuck to what they say and not try to put our own human thinking to what can be seen so easily.


Rom 8:15  For you have not received a spirit of slavery that leads you into fear again. Instead, you have received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Actually, Holy Spirit is the Spirit of both. But that's another thread and I will post there.
 

obedienttogod

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Jan 3, 2019
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I knew several baptists that secretly drank and ran around on their wives.
Under your error by association ,we are now free to label the entire baptist organization as anathema.

Plumbers as well since i once saw one doing xyz



Ha,

The most controversial and one of the greatest baseball players to ever live, Ty Cobb, once confessed to being a Baptist. He said, it's the only church teaching that once he was saved, he could get away with anything afterwards. Ty Cobb was connected to several murders, he was connected to gambling, chasing women, he was even connected to the syndicate back then. He lived like a god and got away with things you and I would be serving life over.

But he was a Baptist, because he could get away with whatever he wanted since he believed in Jesus hahahahahahahahahahahaha

That's why when my Father n Law (was a Baptist Minister now Pentecostal) used to preach, I used to say, "God allowed an ass to speak as a sign, and yet, you speak every Sunday under the same circumstance."

If this thread is from the view of a BAPTIST concerning Tongues, then I'll take my hint from ole Ty Cobb, and understand it's probably been twisted so that believers will believe they can be saved and have a permanent get out of hell free card!!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
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Church began when the first group of people got together in the name of God and becaome a family of God

Church is not what fr to many NT denominations preach it is.. where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also. That is church.

Israel was also called the church of God.


You mean Israel the nation? Or Israel Jacob?

I don't disagree with what you are saying here EG, but when I say church, I mean the body of Jesus on earth. But, that may not be accurate because in a church there may be both saved, and unsaved. We do know that the enemy sends those in to disrupt, but the body of Christ...the true Church of God cannot be penetrated.

So my answer would be at Pentecost.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,647
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113
Ha,

The most controversial and one of the greatest baseball players to ever live, Ty Cobb, once confessed to being a Baptist. He said, it's the only church teaching that once he was saved, he could get away with anything afterwards. Ty Cobb was connected to several murders, he was connected to gambling, chasing women, he was even connected to the syndicate back then. He lived like a god and got away with things you and I would be serving life over.

But he was a Baptist, because he could get away with whatever he wanted since he believed in Jesus hahahahahahahahahahahaha

That's why when my Father n Law (was a Baptist Minister now Pentecostal) used to preach, I used to say, "God allowed an ass to speak as a sign, and yet, you speak every Sunday under the same circumstance."

If this thread is from the view of a BAPTIST concerning Tongues, then I'll take my hint from ole Ty Cobb, and understand it's probably been twisted so that believers will believe they can be saved and have a permanent get out of hell free card!!
I did not know this.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE ON THIS SUBJECT

Why Most Churches do not believe the Charismatic experiences are Real.


A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES


SEGMENT 1 of 9- - By: VCO

My purpose for writing this Bible Study is not to argue with my Pentecostal brothers and sisters, whom I love and respect sincerely. The sole purpose is to present what most non-charismatic Churches teach and believe on this highly controversial subject, showing how we arrive at our Biblical understanding concerning the gift of tongues and why we do not believe in the modern day tongues movement. First and Foremost, I consider the “gift of tongues” a very minor issue that certainly is not worth arguing about. As I have heard Dr. John MacArthur Jr. say, “I am much more concerned about those who gossip in a language that we all understand, than those who speak in an ‘unknown tongue’ that no one understands.” It saddens me however, to realize that this issue has been so blown out of proportion, that it has caused great splits in the Church. Despite the splits, we are still one body (1 Cor. 12:13), even if some of us don’t like to admit it. The following is what I believe to be the truth about this confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) over the “Gift of Tongues”.

In this Bible Study, I will strive to back up any statements that I make, with as much Biblical proof as possible. I absolutely believe the Bible, being the inspired Word of God, is the ultimate authority. The wisdom of men, opinions apart from Biblical proof, feelings, personal experiences, what we have seen with our eyes, etc.; are of little or no value when trying to prove something Biblically. Why, because all of those things can be manipulated by the human mind or Satan, but he cannot change the Word of God (1 Pet. 1:25). 2 Cor. 5:7 NIV, “We live by faith, not by sight.” Rom. 10:17 NKJV, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” Mat. 24:35 NIV, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

Since most of us can agree that the Bible is the ultimate authority, I urge you to personally check everything I say, against what the Bible says. I believe it is our duty as Christians to put our faith in the Word of God, not in men. No matter how learned or how famous the Bible Teacher, he must withstand the test of Scripture. The Bereans even checked the Scriptures daily, to make sure Paul was teaching it right. Acts 17:11 NIV, “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” What this verse tells me, is not only is every Bible teacher to be put to the test by the Scriptures, but we through the Holy Spirit in us, have the ability to discern the truth and understand what the Bible means by what it says; if we will diligently search the Scriptures daily, (1 Cor. 2:14). Job 32:8 NIV, “But it is the Spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.” Mat. 7:7 NIV, “. . . seek” {diligently in the Greek} “and you will find . . .”

One of the most important ways we do this is by comparing what one verse says, to what other verses pertaining to the same subject say. You cannot ever use a verse in a way that contradicts another verse. God did not make any mistakes! God is perfect; therefore, His Word is perfect! Deut. 32:4, Ps. 18:30, Ps. 19:7, James 1:25, etc. God never changes (Mal. 3:6); therefore, His Word never changes. What it meant when it was written is what it means today. Mat. 24:35, Isa. 40:8, Heb. 13:8, & 1 Pet. 1:25. If a man uses a verse in a way that contradicts another verse on the exact same subject, it most certainly is that man who made the mistake, not God.

With all of this in mind, let us get in the study of what the Bible says about the “Gift of Tongues”. There are at least two types of “tongues” speaking. The ability to miraculously speak an earthly language that they had never learned is one {which is what I believe the apostles did on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:6}. I will for the purpose of this study call that the “Gift of Tongues” with a capital T, or the “Gift of Languages”. The other type of “tongues”, is the ecstatic speech or ecstatic utterances that are not a translatable earthly language {some times called “private prayer language”, “heavenly language that only God understands”, “tongues of angels”, “Baptism in the Spirit”, “the Holy Spirit offering up Utterances”, “ecstatic babble”, etc.} I will for the purpose of this study refer to this as “unknown tongues” with a small t in Italics, or “ecstatic utterances”.

We already know that the “Gift of Tongues or Languages” was first manifested or originated on the day of Pentecost by the apostles. When and where did the gift of “unknown tongues” or “ecstatic utterances” originate? Were the Corinthians the first to manifest “unknown tongues”, or did it begin before the Corinthian Church was founded?

If we start studying the history of religions in the world during the Bible times, we will discover that “unknown tongues”, actually began centuries before the day of Pentecost, in the pagan “mystery religions”, (the worship of Ashtoreth and her son Baal, the worship of Isis and her son Osiris, the worship of Aphrodite and her son Eros, the worship of Venus and her son Cupid, etc.). {Ref: historian Samuel Angus’s book “The Mystery Religions”.} The mystery religions all had their origin at the “Tower of Babel”, where the high priestess, Semiramis, demanded that the people worship her and her son Tammuz, whom she claimed was conceived by a sunbeam. That was a counterfeit of the “virgin birth”, and later she even claimed that Tammuz was killed by a wild boar and rose from the dead; another counterfeit of Christ. {Satan has always liked to imitate what God does, such as when Pharaoh’s magicians turning their staffs into snakes, Ex. 7:9-13.} When God destroyed the Tower of Babel, Gen. 11:1-9; and confused the language and scattered the people all over the world; they took with them their pagan counterfeit virgin and son system of religion. Because of the new languages, Semiramis and Tammuz now had new names. In Greece they were called Aphrodite and Eros, the goddess and god of love.

Now you must remember, that most of the Congregation at the Church of Corinth, had been involved in the worship of one of these “mystery religions”, before they were saved. 1 Cor. 12:2 NIV, “You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.” These pagan “mystery religions”, {such as the worship of Aphrodite, Eros, and Zeus}, were very popular in Greece, not only because of the orgies that sometimes followed the worship service; but mainly because of the exciting feelings that were generated in the service itself. They indulged in what they called “ecstasy” or “ecstasis” in the Greek language, which meant “to cultivate a magical, sensuous communion with deity”. They also sought after “enthusiasm” or “enthousiasmos”, which in the Greek language means “a state of euphoria induced on someone to make them semiconscious” (“slain in the spirit”), a trance-like state of mind. While under the control of these feelings and emotions, they frequently “danced out of control” (danced in the spirit), and spoke in “unknown tongues” that only the gods could understand. They were sure that this was definite proof that they had personally communed with the deity they were worshipping. Plato, the Greek philosopher, who lived from 427-347 B.C., referred to this euphoric state of ecstasy as “divine frenzy”.
Endlessly repeating falsehoods does not render them true.

Unless you're a republican ;)
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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I did not know this.



When Ty was older (he lived till 75), the writers organization wanted to do his autobiography. He allowed 1 writer, under the condition of being Ty's servant during this period of time. It ended up being a couple of years this writer was with Ty daily, traveling to baseball events, the hall of fame, and to current games of that time period. And Ty just talked. He was brilliant in business by buying stock in many companies that ended up being big successes like Coke, stocks in big pharmacy manufacturer's, and all sorts of things. Married twice, but he loved every woman he met, so his marriages lasted about as long as a pair of socks. Ty just was lonely, and for some reason, he just talked about it all to this writer. They discussed it all from science, faith, common sense, how to chase women, it was just interesting how this all played out.

And then one day, Ty said, I have nothing more to say. He ordered the writer to pack and get off his property. The writer then and did what he was hired to do, write the Biography of Ty Cobb, from Ty's own words.


***But, it was the Baptist portions I never forgot. Ty was sincere and convinced of his beliefs. He was sold out what he was taught by the Baptist was a guaranteed 1 way ticket to Paradise. So Ty, put his human nature on full display, and called it "once saved always saved."***

:(