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"Just?" Kind of like saying, "just check every reference for Lord/LORD." Not quite as long a list, but it's going to be a lot of work to do a word study on "a thousand." 
(If I try to talk people into word studies, I rather give them the easy homework -- words that don't appear often in the Bible -- like giant, rapture/caught up, or rabbit. lol)
(If I try to talk people into word studies, I rather give them the easy homework -- words that don't appear often in the Bible -- like giant, rapture/caught up, or rabbit. lol)
I was always a closet Partial Preterist. I attend Pentecostal/Charismatic churches the first 17 years I was saved, and they were all pre-mill and militantly so! In other words, the only time people talked about other end times scenerios, it was to call the people who believed them heretics.
Now, I agree there are some doctrines which are essential to Christianity, and if you don't believe them, you really can't call yourself a Christian - like the divinity of Christ! That is ESSENTIAL! Someone not believing in the deity of Christ is a heretic, because they are not orthodox. Very simple.
But when it comes to eschatology, as a student friend at seminary said, you can't call anyone a heretic in a subject that is at best an educated guess. We had a professor do a video on the 4 end times scenerios. He cited the scholars that believed each viewpoint. He put up the Scriptures that appeared to support each viewpoint. Then he said, "Choose for yourself and pray about it. But don't ever call anyone a heretic, over their viewpoint." That was very freeing for me.
So I did look into Preterist, and realized that the pre-mill stuff I had been fed, I didn't agree with because it did not agree with what I had been reading in the Bible. Now, if someone else has studied and come to the conclusion that pre-mill is right, that is their right and opinion too.
i think it was last year, someone posted a good book to read on the Preterist view. It was: Raptureless: Third Edition by Jonathan Welton.
Now my husband came to believe in the so-called rapture and and pre-mill through Hal Lindsay's books. Not really a person whose books I would want to base my theology on for anything. Once, I kind of let slip I did not believe in the rapture. He got quite upset and called "those" people heretics, because they were twisting the Bible. So I backed off. Then, on a camping trip last year, I was reading the above book, and there was so much historical evidence, it was astounding, so I started reading him the book for quite a few hours. He was stunned! We had some good discussions about it. I don't know if he totally changed his eschatology, but he certainly came away with a new idea about some of the more imaginative aspects of Hal Lindsay's eschatology, and perhaps it wasn't all quite right!
By the way, I have nothing against classical premillennialism and the rapture, if it is based on solid scriptural research. I don't agree with it, but I acknowledge it is a valid Bible interpretation, just not the right one! LOL
So friends, everyone??
Now, I agree there are some doctrines which are essential to Christianity, and if you don't believe them, you really can't call yourself a Christian - like the divinity of Christ! That is ESSENTIAL! Someone not believing in the deity of Christ is a heretic, because they are not orthodox. Very simple.
But when it comes to eschatology, as a student friend at seminary said, you can't call anyone a heretic in a subject that is at best an educated guess. We had a professor do a video on the 4 end times scenerios. He cited the scholars that believed each viewpoint. He put up the Scriptures that appeared to support each viewpoint. Then he said, "Choose for yourself and pray about it. But don't ever call anyone a heretic, over their viewpoint." That was very freeing for me.
So I did look into Preterist, and realized that the pre-mill stuff I had been fed, I didn't agree with because it did not agree with what I had been reading in the Bible. Now, if someone else has studied and come to the conclusion that pre-mill is right, that is their right and opinion too.
i think it was last year, someone posted a good book to read on the Preterist view. It was: Raptureless: Third Edition by Jonathan Welton.
Now my husband came to believe in the so-called rapture and and pre-mill through Hal Lindsay's books. Not really a person whose books I would want to base my theology on for anything. Once, I kind of let slip I did not believe in the rapture. He got quite upset and called "those" people heretics, because they were twisting the Bible. So I backed off. Then, on a camping trip last year, I was reading the above book, and there was so much historical evidence, it was astounding, so I started reading him the book for quite a few hours. He was stunned! We had some good discussions about it. I don't know if he totally changed his eschatology, but he certainly came away with a new idea about some of the more imaginative aspects of Hal Lindsay's eschatology, and perhaps it wasn't all quite right!
By the way, I have nothing against classical premillennialism and the rapture, if it is based on solid scriptural research. I don't agree with it, but I acknowledge it is a valid Bible interpretation, just not the right one! LOL
So friends, everyone??
E
There is way to much of this in these debates, and in the churches.. Its sad
Everyone needs to hear this, This is how we decide for ourselves.. And how we should treat our brothers and sisters who disagree. Amen.
I am still pre-mil. I have tried my best to study all views. And not just books which are against other views. But the people who believe the views and wrote about their own view.. I think this is the only way to do it.
Even as pre-mil. I do not judge a preterist (or A-Mil as I always called them. never heard preterism till I got in CC) I may get into a debate with one, Bwhich may get heated (I admit, I have been in error the way I react. and confess) but would never judge them..
Love your post. Thank you sis.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
God has a plan to restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews which has not occurred yet.
The disciples asked Jesus if it would happen at the time He was on earth,but said,the Father will do it in the future,but do not worry about but go preach the Gospel.
70 A.D.,God allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem because of their rejection of Christ.
Jews scattered in to the nations so the kingdom could not be restored to them then.
Israel a nation again,1948,but the kingdom was not restored to them then,and is not now,for when the kingdom is restored to them,God will make a full end of all Gentile nations,their governments,but will not make a full end of Israel,but will not leave them wholly unpunished,and when they have borne their shame then the kingdom will be restored to them,and the heathen shall know that God was with Israel all along.
The 7 years period in the future is the time for God to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark of the beast,which then salvation is no more available to them,and bring Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which is Israel is blinded in part,until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in,but when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,Israel will not be blinded in part anymore,but be in the truth,and so all Israel shall be saved,the kingdom restored to Israel.
The beast kingdom in Revelation is all the nations of the world together to try to achieve peace on earth in which they cut God out of the picture,for the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and all who follow it will take the mark,and make war against the saints,and when they shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection shall happen,and the wrath of God poured upon the heathen,in which the beast and the world will go against Jerusalem,to wipe out the Jews,but Jesus comes back with His saints,and fights the world,and puts them down,and saves Israel,in which the kingdom is restored to Israel,and Jesus and the saints rule over one sixth of the world that fought against Israel for 1000 years.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
oe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
The beast kingdom is future and is the whole world together,and the whole world attacks Jerusalem,Israel,and these scriptures are future,and not first century,and cannot be placed in the first century,for the kingdom has not been restored to Israel yet,and in the first century the Jews did not have the kingdom,for the Roman Empire had control over there.
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
God has a plan to restore the kingdom on earth to the Jews which has not occurred yet.
The disciples asked Jesus if it would happen at the time He was on earth,but said,the Father will do it in the future,but do not worry about but go preach the Gospel.
70 A.D.,God allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem because of their rejection of Christ.
Jews scattered in to the nations so the kingdom could not be restored to them then.
Israel a nation again,1948,but the kingdom was not restored to them then,and is not now,for when the kingdom is restored to them,God will make a full end of all Gentile nations,their governments,but will not make a full end of Israel,but will not leave them wholly unpunished,and when they have borne their shame then the kingdom will be restored to them,and the heathen shall know that God was with Israel all along.
The 7 years period in the future is the time for God to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark of the beast,which then salvation is no more available to them,and bring Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which is Israel is blinded in part,until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in,but when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,Israel will not be blinded in part anymore,but be in the truth,and so all Israel shall be saved,the kingdom restored to Israel.
The beast kingdom in Revelation is all the nations of the world together to try to achieve peace on earth in which they cut God out of the picture,for the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and all who follow it will take the mark,and make war against the saints,and when they shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection shall happen,and the wrath of God poured upon the heathen,in which the beast and the world will go against Jerusalem,to wipe out the Jews,but Jesus comes back with His saints,and fights the world,and puts them down,and saves Israel,in which the kingdom is restored to Israel,and Jesus and the saints rule over one sixth of the world that fought against Israel for 1000 years.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
oe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joe 3:3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
Joe 3:4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
The beast kingdom is future and is the whole world together,and the whole world attacks Jerusalem,Israel,and these scriptures are future,and not first century,and cannot be placed in the first century,for the kingdom has not been restored to Israel yet,and in the first century the Jews did not have the kingdom,for the Roman Empire had control over there.
Well I never really took preterism seriously before considering we're like 1900+ years down the pike from 70 AD. However I just now saw a very compelling video that has got me thinking. Perhaps there is an answer at last. All the historical proof you will ever need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Lol, Happy April Fool's Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Lol, Happy April Fool's Day!
Israel was restored to the Holy Land in accordance with the prophecies after the exile.
Palestine was an independent state within the Roman Empire with special status.
The beast kingdom was established in 1st/2nd century AD. It was in those days 'a world kingdom'.
God as no plans for Israel apart from their repenting and becoming part of His church.
Palestine was an independent state within the Roman Empire with special status.
The beast kingdom was established in 1st/2nd century AD. It was in those days 'a world kingdom'.
God as no plans for Israel apart from their repenting and becoming part of His church.
I would advise you to read up on what Preterists actually believe from a book written by one. A good one for those inquiring is End Times Bible Prophecy (Its not what they told you) by Brian Gosawa who was brought up as a Pre Tribulationist. You may not agree with him but at least you will have some correct basic knowledge of what Preterists believe.
I agree. It's always good to get the "goods" from the mouth of the actual horse itself. I find that 2nd hand assumptions can be based on what they "perceive" someone is saying or they just blatantly twist what they are saying to make it appear to be something else.
We are still free to agree or disagree in parts of it or all of it too but at the very least we are representing accurately what is really being said or believed.
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M
Wow -- so far, three pages of this thread and almost nothing but yakety-yak chit-chat. Somebody link me to some intriguing evidence concerning, for example, the great cosmic signs which are predicted in the Bible that preterists believe have already happened.
I would imagine they would have needed to occur around 70AD? The floor is open. I sit here with notepad and poised pen.
I can even start a new thread entitled "Chit-Chat Kaffee Klatsch" so that we can give those guys an outlet while others of us conduct some serious conversation over here! Fair enough?
I would imagine they would have needed to occur around 70AD? The floor is open. I sit here with notepad and poised pen.
I can even start a new thread entitled "Chit-Chat Kaffee Klatsch" so that we can give those guys an outlet while others of us conduct some serious conversation over here! Fair enough?
These "great cosmic signs" are quite common and I saw them all during just my own life.
So what are you asking for? Exact date of each in the 1st century? Well, you have two possibilities:
a) ask NASA, ESA, Roskosmos or some other space agency to actually count back 2000 years to get a date for you.
b) find some historical work about this topic which will be quite difficult (its 2000 years old, you know)
You should not hope to get such info on a public forum.
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