A Thread For Preterists: Show some historical proof!

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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
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#81
Well, I know what they believe. I was just looking for at least some tidbits of historical evidence from any of the preterists here on this discussion board.

The problem is...there apparently isn't any historical proof. Have you seen anything even remotely resembling historical proof? These preterists keep claiming all the prophecies about the great cosmic signs have already been fulfilled. Where? When?

I tried to get a glimpse of any arguments this Gosawa guy might have. Couldn't find much. I have never paid any attention to preterism so it's a fairly unfamiliar subject to me. But there seems to be quite a community of them at this discussion board. The few glimpses I've have gotten of their arguments...are a disaster.
This is an addition to an earlier reply to this post. Firstly you say you know what Preterists believe. Then you say its a fairly unfamiliar subject to you. It takes more than a few posts on CC to understand it. If I relied on information about
Dispensationalism/Darbyism from what I see on here I would be confused as well. As it is I am an ex Pre Tribber
because I took the trouble to read up on the actual belief system and history behind it before I rejected it. If you seriously want to understand any set of beliefs you need to study them properly rather than just rely on hearsay and prejudice and then decide whether you agree with the view or not.
 
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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
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#82
Good points there Tanakh.

I was against the preterist view, I studied it intensely for a year in an attempt to "invalidate" it - preterism won.

Op needs to take the too by for out of his eye.....
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#83
I guess the beauty of rapture doctrine is that no historical proof can ever be elicited on the matter.

It's all mañana. Or Perhaps even: mañana from heaven.

The historical proof of the destruction of Jerusalem is written on the arch of Titus.

It is also rumoured that the Vatican libraries and cellars contain many Jewish relics and artefacts.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#84
I was against the preterist view, I studied it intensely for a year in an attempt to "invalidate" it - preterism won.
Page 5 of this thread and STILL not one shred or tidbit of historical evidence or even just some sort of attention-getting argumentation or logic.

Op needs to take the too by for out of his eye
I get the pun but why the jab? Strictly humor? MattTooFor should be MattTwoFour (as in Matthew 24) but CC records show that pseudonym was taken.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#85
so you consider the darkness at Christ's crucifixion and subsequent blood moon a run of the mill cosmic event? I consider it one of the greatest signs that ever was and of great significance (as Peter saw).

as for rev 6. The sixth seal portrays the second coming of Christ cf Is 2. Pretty special to me too. No wonder there were 'run of the mill cosmic events.'
Utter fabrication to say there was a black-as-sackcloth darkened sun, a blood-red moon, stars falling from the sky, the very sky itself "split like a scroll", every mountain and every island moved out of its place, and the very earth itself moved out of its place...on the day of the crucifixion. You have absolutely zero scripture. My goodness.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#86
so you consider the darkness at Christ's crucifixion and subsequent blood moon a run of the mill cosmic event? I consider it one of the greatest signs that ever was and of great significance (as Peter saw).

as for rev 6. The sixth seal portrays the second coming of Christ cf Is 2. Pretty special to me too. No wonder there were 'run of the mill cosmic events.'
Additionally, there is a depiction in Scripture of the entire world staggering to it's knees in horror and sorrow...and running panic-stricken for the rocks and the caves. NONE of that happened on the day of Jesus' crucifixion.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#87
What proof exactly are you looking for?
Any little historical tidbit. After all, preterists are claiming all these staggeringly spectacular cosmic events have already happened. Somthing of that magnitude...there HAS to be some evidence in historical records...otherwise Preterists have absolutely nothing to stand on.

There are some ancient historians out there, particularly in the ancient roman world. There should be a record of cosmic events that terrify the whole world and were simultaneously accompanied by other enormous phenomena -- Columns of smoke, the sky splitting like a scroll. Every mountain and every island in the world being removed from it's place. The very planet itself being removed from its place (Is.13:13).

And all of this would have needed to happen at some critical, significant point in history. Presumably around 70 A.D., if I'm understanding some of the common Preterist claims. Where is the historical evidence of this HUGE convergence of unprecedented cosmic, seismic (etc.) events??

I'm not looking for a book at this point. Just some beginning indications there is any historical evidence at all. I don't think there is but...anyone is welcome to prove me wrong.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#88
Firstly you say you know what Preterists believe. Then you say its a fairly unfamiliar subject to you.
Right. I know what Preterism is. They believe prophecy has already been fulfilled. I'm just unfamiliar with how they go about trying to make their arguments. I had never bothered to sit down and actually read through some of their stuff. I am finding it extraordinarily difficult to get even the tiniest peek at anything even remotely resembling evidence presentation.

This is despite their 16,000 interruptions of debates/discussions between futurists in the various threads I have participated in...and myself having gone to the effort of starting two separate threads on the topic. Not one scintilla of anything that would make me go "hmm, that's a bit intriguing".

If I relied on information about Dispensationalism/Darbyism from what I see on here I would be confused as well. As it is I am an ex Pre Tribber
Right, but I'm beginning to believe there isn't the slightest shred of a serious argument or intriguing historical evidence. That's my preliminary assessment.

You have to understand my philosophy of Bible study: It doesn't take 6 seminars, 8 YouTubes, 12 books, and a "partridge in a pear tree" to understand the basic truths of God's Word. He has made it eminently accessible to thick skulls like me. That's how I see it.

Like I have said previously, my little 12-year-old daughter read through the bulk of Matthew 24 in fifteen minutes. No seminars, no 500-page commentary books.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#90
I suggest you educate yourself on the symbolic language of the bible.

Understanding Prophetic Symbols and Apocalyptic Language Of The Bible
Right. Me and which team of rocket scientists? Come on, guy. The Bible is for simple people. There are "not many wise", not many elites, not many Einsteins...who understand the Bible. It is generally the domain of the not-so-great and not-so-grand.

You are wanting to drag me deep into your favorite jungle. I'm just asking, for openers...when did these super-spectacular, ultra-ultra-uber-amazing cosmic and seismic events take place in history past...and in conjunction with the ENTIRE world's population collapsing to its knees in horror and sorrow?

Why don't you dig into some of the ancient writings of Roman historians and such...and tell me what you come up with.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#91
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

I would sure like to know how this could possibly happen in the first century,that an army of that size,200,000,000 men,could go against another group of people who would have to range in the millions of people,and describes weapons that are not swords and spears,but weapons of mass destruction,that sounds like nuclear weapons,that takes out one third of the population of the world.

How could a group of people come up with an army that size,and fight against another army that is great in size,and use weapons of mass destruction,and cause one third of the population of the world to perish.Was their fighting so terrible in that area that people on the other side of the world were dying from the shock wave going through the earth.

How can that be explained back in the first century,that an army of 200,000,000 men could even be assembled,and go against other people,and use weapons of that caliber.

Jerusalem is so tiny,and Israel,that the Roman Empire did not have to use that big of an army to go against them,especially when God was allowing the Roman Empire to go against them for rejecting Christ,so they did not have God's protection like when they were in the truth,and there was no way that an army of people that size could be assembled,that would be liked minded,and have the same agenda,to go against others that did not have their agenda.

But it does make sense today,when a big group of people rebel against what the world is doing when they say Peace and safety,when the nations come together trying to achieve peace on earth,and there is a unified religious system that offends fundamental Christianity,Islam,and Judaism,for their belief in a personal God exclusive to others,for that big group will be against the world,and nuclear weapons will fly and cause one third of the population of the world to perish.

For it does not make sense in the first century,and even the smartest person ever to exist cannot figure out how it could happen back then.

I believe it is the religion of Islam for they offend them by the way they operate,and stifle them from going forth to extend their religion,and their ways,and they are pitted against the world,which is what the man of sin wants,to take down the big three that belief in a personal God,Islam first before the beast claims to be God,Christianity when he claims to be God,and when the saints are off the world,going against Israel.

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

The Bible is for the simple man,for they are the ones that will accept it,and people that would be intelligent according to the course of the world will fall short in understanding all it says.It is God that gives the wisdom,not the wisdom of the world,and how they look at things from a different perspective.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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#92
Page 5 of this thread and STILL not one shred or tidbit of historical evidence or even just some sort of attention-getting argumentation or logic.
@MattTooFor

You need to read the posts. Arch of Titus
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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#93
First and last uses of star in the Bible. Both figurative.

Numbers 24 17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Revelation 22 13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.......16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
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#94
Utter fabrication to say there was a black-as-sackcloth darkened sun, a blood-red moon, stars falling from the sky, the very sky itself "split like a scroll", every mountain and every island moved out of its place, and the very earth itself moved out of its place...on the day of the crucifixion. You have absolutely zero scripture. My goodness.
And where do you find that in Acts2 which deals with the first coming and the giving of the Spirit?

Revelation 6 is dealing with the second coming.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#95
Right. I know what Preterism is. They believe prophecy has already been fulfilled. I'm just unfamiliar with how they go about trying to make their arguments. I had never bothered to sit down and actually read through some of their stuff. I am finding it extraordinarily difficult to get even the tiniest peek at anything even remotely resembling evidence presentation.

This is despite their 16,000 interruptions of debates/discussions between futurists in the various threads I have participated in...and myself having gone to the effort of starting two separate threads on the topic. Not one scintilla of anything that would make me go "hmm, that's a bit intriguing".

Right, but I'm beginning to believe there isn't the slightest shred of a serious argument or intriguing historical evidence. That's my preliminary assessment.

You have to understand my philosophy of Bible study: It doesn't take 6 seminars, 8 YouTubes, 12 books, and a "partridge in a pear tree" to understand the basic truths of God's Word. He has made it eminently accessible to thick skulls like me. That's how I see it.

Like I have said previously, my little 12-year-old daughter read through the bulk of Matthew 24 in fifteen minutes. No seminars, no 500-page commentary books.
yes you sound as though you've the Bible understanding of a twelve year old

I read them through as an eight year old. But I've learned a lot since.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
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#96
I guess the beauty of rapture doctrine is that no historical proof can ever be elicited on the matter.

It's all mañana. Or Perhaps even: mañana from heaven.

The historical proof of the destruction of Jerusalem is written on the arch of Titus.

It is also rumoured that the Vatican libraries and cellars contain many Jewish relics and artefacts.
Josephus wrote about it as well, I believe that the Temple was destroyed in 70 ad, but it seems to me that the abomination of desolation could be a double fulfillment prophecy, because of the words speaking of the distress in that time, it say "as has never been seen and never will be seen again". 1.1 million Jews were killed, yet Hitler killed 6 million and some say that the 20 million people that Stalin killed were mostly Jews, but the government didn't want that to get ut because we were allies with then in WWII.

Can someone recommend a book on the preterits view, I was a pre-tribber as well. Once I study the Olivet Discourse by filling in the blanks, for lack of a better term. By reading Matthew 24-25, Luke 21-17 and Mark 13 which really doesn't add anything that Matthew hasn't said. Luke 17 isn't the Olivet Discourse but it is about the end time, it adds to Matthews in the days of Noah by adding Lot to the mix, with that reminder "remember Lot's wife", it changed my think on the end time or Christ return to judge the nations.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#97
I would sure like to know how this could possibly happen in the first century,that an army of that size,200,000,000 men,could go against another group of people who would have to range in the millions of people,and describes weapons that are not swords and spears,but weapons of mass destruction,that sounds like nuclear weapons,that takes out one third of the population of the world.
Good point. I agree.

The Bible is for the simple man,for they are the ones that will accept it,and people that would be intelligent according to the course of the world will fall short in understanding all it says.It is God that gives the wisdom,not the wisdom of the world,and how they look at things from a different perspective.
Good point. I agree.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#98
@MattTooFor

You need to read the posts. Arch of Titus
Yes, I saw the remark about the arch. I'm looking for evidence of the occurrence of these staggering events - the sun, the moon, the falling stars, every mountain and island "removed", the earth itself "removed, the sky "splitting like a scroll", great columns of smoke, the roaring oceans, the world's entire population falling to their knees in horror and sorrow, scrambling for the rocks and caves. When did that happen in history past?
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#99
And where do you find that in Acts2 which deals with the first coming and the giving of the Spirit?

Revelation 6 is dealing with the second coming.
Don't understand what you're saying. The Bible predicts these huge cosmic and seismic calamities...along with the world's entire population falling to their knees in horror. Read Rev. 6. There is a climactic finality. This has never happened.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
yes you sound as though you've the Bible understanding of a twelve year old

I read them through as an eight year old. But I've learned a lot since.
Don't understand the personal jab. I was only answering the man's question. What in the world? (??)