Adam was not deceived but chose to eat of the forbidden tree. Why?

[JohnDB]

no, that's not what it says.
'to her husband with her' doesn't indicate he was never anywhere else but by her side.
'with her' doesn't even indicate proximity at all.

'with her' refers to the both of them having fruit, not to physical location.
she has fruit; he then has fruit with her.
'with' in the sense that they are now both carrying out the same action.



in Hebrew or in your opinion?

from what i'm looking at ((https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5973.htm)) in Hebrew that word "with" most often refers to joining together in purpose or common action, in fellowship, in common lot/destiny. it's not at all specific to sharing a locality, and more often than not it's not used that way.

i see nothing in the definition of this word that means 'using someone as a guinea pig'
are you suggesting it's Adam, not Satan, who deceives his wife?

Adam was WITH her....and you just posted the meaning of the Hebrew "with".

Meaning he was there the whole time.

But I am suspecting that you have an inability to ever admit that you are wrong. Even though you just posted the evidence that you are indeed wrong.

Admitting you are wrong is supposed to be a trademark characteristic of a Christian lifestyle. Or did you forget that as well?

 

[posthuman]

I believe that Adam was trending towards being an idiot.

i see that he left his father to be joined to his wife

 

[posthuman]

Adam was WITH her....and you just posted the meaning of the Hebrew "with".

and the meaning of "with" has nothing to do with locality, and the text does not say he was located right next to her when the Serpent was deceiving her.

as i showed you.

the text says she ate, and then after a period of time he ate "with" her.
she takes fruit.
she has fruit.
she eats fruit.
then
she gives some to Adam
now Adam 'has fruit with her'
i.e. they both have fruit.
that's what "with" means -- they 'commonly' possess some of the fruit, once she gives some to him.

 

[posthuman]

a trademark characteristic

if i ask you to pray "with" me does that mean you have to be standing in my living room the whole time a few feet from me?

 

[posthuman]

I am suspecting

i gave you a link to a page with the definition of the Hebrew word in Genesis 3:6
so you can read it "with me"

does that 100% indicate you have been sitting in my lap for the last 2 hours?
that is what you are arguing it means.
i am arguing that "with" can refer to common action, possession, thought, purpose etc
as the definition of the word says it does, in fact, says it most commonly means.

so who is the one who is wrong about this?

 

[JohnDB]

and the meaning of "with" has nothing to do with locality, and the text does not say he was located right next to her when the Serpent was deceiving her.

as i showed you.

the text says she ate, and then after a period of time he ate "with" her.
she takes fruit.
she has fruit.
she eats fruit.
then
she gives some to Adam
now Adam 'has fruit with her'
i.e. they both have fruit.
that's what "with" means -- they 'commonly' possess some of the fruit, once she gives some to him.

You do understand though that it wasn't exactly a specific tree. It changed every year.

The first years fruit from a tree has always been God's....
That was the fruit they weren't supposed to eat. But Adam and Eve ate it anyway.

It's written in Hebrew poetry...that's what it means that they did...

It wasn't any special fruit or specific unknown variety. It was always the first year's fruit production of a young tree.

Maybe you can quit "doubling down" and just Repent.

 

[posthuman]

In Hebrew it suggests that he was using her as a guinea pig....

i would like to know more about why you think Adam was the one tricking his wife into sin so he could see what would happen to her . . ?

that's a new one, to me.

 

[posthuman]

You do understand though that it wasn't exactly a specific tree. It changed every year.

um.

i ain't seeing that.
you getting this from what Satan said in 3:1 ?

this is also a new one, to me.

 

[JohnDB]

i would like to know more about why you think Adam was the one tricking his wife into sin so he could see what would happen to her . . ?

that's a new one, to me.

You have gone beyond what scripture says AND beyond what I have said or suggested.

I never suggested that Adam tricked his wife. Just that he was with her the whole time watching to see if she died.

 

[JohnDB]

um.

i ain't seeing that.
you getting this from what Satan said in 3:1 ?

this is also a new one, to me.

Deuterocannonical law is that the first years production of a fruit tree must not be touched. It belongs to God.

This is a prevalent theme in all of the laws. The "peter" or firstborn animal out of the flocks females is also God's and either needs to be redeemed or sacrificed. The first sheaf out of the grain fields is God's. The first letter of the Hebrew alphabet is God's....it has no sound unlike the Beth which does.

All numbering began at two in Jewish accounting.

So...you are supposed to be teaching when you don't even have a firm grasp of the Old Testament Law?
That doesn't sound even close to prudence or having a healthy fear of God.

 

[posthuman]

It was always the first year's fruit production of a young tree.

And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.
The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
(Genesis 2:9)
​

this does not fit your interpretation.
two specific trees are delineated here, after the "every tree .. that is pleasant to the sight and good for food"
if we have to guess what is planted first, 'every other tree' or 'the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'
we should guess 'every other tree' because they are first introduced as having been planted.

Christ is called the firstfruits ((1 Corinthians 15:20-23)) and the life ((John 1:4, John 14:6, 1 John 5:11-12, etc etc etc))
if i had to guess what is the first fruit to bear in Eden, i would guess it's the tree of life.

if i had the crazy idea that no tree is specific but that "life or death" is assigned to whatever tree is the firstfruits, i would be very much inclined to say that life is foremost, not death.
in the text, where specific trees are identified, the tree of life is mentioned first

 

[posthuman]

You have gone beyond what scripture says

i have?

you're the one who rejects the dictionary definition of words, thinks Adam used his wife as a guinea pig, and is now teaching me that there was no such thing as a tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil, that firstfruits equal death -- that Satan was justified is asking if God had forbidden eating from all the trees in the garden, because in your opinion each tree was potentially individually verboten year by year, individually.

weirdness.

 

[JohnDB]

i have?

you're the one who rejects the dictionary definition of words, thinks Adam used his wife as a guinea pig, and is now teaching me that there was no such thing as a tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil, that firstfruits equal death -- that Satan was justified is asking if God had forbidden eating from all the trees in the garden, because in your opinion each tree was potentially individually verboten year by year, individually.

weirdness.

It's not weirdness.
It's a proper application of Ancient Near Eastern thought.

You are putting modern western thought into scriptures. That's weirdness.

 

[posthuman]

a firm grasp of the Old Testament Law?

​

It shall be, in regard to their inheritance, that I am their inheritance. You shall give them no possession in Israel, for I am their possession. They shall eat the grain offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering; every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs. The best of all firstfruits of any kind, and every sacrifice of any kind from all your sacrifices, shall be the priest’s; also you shall give to the priest the first of your ground meal, to cause a blessing to rest on your house.​

(Ezekiel 44:28-30) ​

​

All the best of the oil, all the best of the new wine and the grain, their firstfruits which they offer to the Lord, I have given them to you. Whatever first ripe fruit is in their land, which they bring to the Lord, shall be yours. Everyone who is clean in your house may eat it.​

Every devoted thing in Israel shall be yours.​

Everything that first opens the womb of all flesh, which they bring to the Lord, whether man or beast, shall be yours​

(Numbers 18:12-15)​

you are saying the firstfruits is death.
the scripture says it is life.
you are saying the two trees are non-specific.
the scripture says they are specific.
you are saying no one may eat the firstfruits.
the scripture says it is for the priests and all in their household to eat.
firstfruits is a symbol of Christ; you are calling it antichrist & sin.
you are saying no one may partake of Christ, that He is death and damnation.

i think it is clear who here needs to admit having a wrong interpretation.

 

[Mem]

You have gone beyond what scripture says AND beyond what I have said or suggested.

I never suggested that Adam tricked his wife. Just that he was with her the whole time watching to see if she died.

you are saying the firstfruits is death.
the scripture says it is life.
you are saying the two trees are non-specific.
the scripture says they are specific.
you are saying no one may eat the firstfruits.
the scripture says it is for the priests and all in their household to eat.
firstfruits is a symbol of Christ; you are calling it antichrist & sin.
you are saying no one may partake of Christ, that He is death and damnation.

i think it is clear who here needs to admit having a wrong interpretation.

In the mixing up, we may have accidentally happened upon another angle worth considerating... lol, I couldn't decide between the word considering and consideration... if only to eliminate it as a valid possibility.

Specifically, as I was following the conversation, the brass serpent on a pole came to mind and the significance it has as a representation of Jesus (as becoming as one of us), the second Adam, and also how the number of the antichrist beast is the number of a man ( does this relate in any way to the gematria of 'Adam' or even ha'adam?

 

[posthuman]

In the mixing up, we may have accidentally happened upon another angle worth considerating... lol, I couldn't decide between the word considering and consideration... if only to eliminate it as a valid possibility.

Specifically, as I was following the conversation, the brass serpent on a pole came to mind and the significance it has as a representation of Jesus (as becoming as one of us), the second Adam, and also how the number of the antichrist beast is the number of a man ( does this relate in any way to the gematria of 'Adam' or even ha'adam?

i don't know about the number ..
but the serpent on the pole has always amazed me how that the instrument of their judgement is the same thing they had to look toward and behold in order to have salvation. how that similarly our flesh condemns us, and Christ came in the flesh and that His flesh was lifted up for our redemption. how the serpent in the wilderness was covered in brass/bronze, and God enrobed Himself in humanity.
the whole aspect of covering, being wrapped up in a garment -- Adam & Woman's garments, which they had made themselves, being unfit, and God giving them instead garments He Himself made. so also we 'put on Christ' and to 'enter His rest' is to cease from our own works, and do His; as the white robes in the Revelation of Christ are called the righteous acts of His saints.

and all they had to do in the wilderness, to be healed, was look

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Eve knew she wasn't to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet she decided to please herself rather than honour and please God, and so ate the fruit.

The Bible doesn't say whether or not Eve told Adam what tree the fruit came from. There were other fruit bearing trees in the garden at that time. We may conclude that Adam would have known what the fruit looked like anyway, and have recognised it and therefore should have declined to eat it. But he chose to please his wife or himself rather than honour and please God. Adam should have refused Eve, but chose to defer to her rather than defer to God, which was a very stupid move on his part. God could have fashioned him a new Eve if he had obeyed Him.

There is an implication in the Bible that women can be more easily deceived than males by Satan.
Because of this, and also because He created a male first, God has given the responsibility of leadership in marriage, and in the church, to men.

 

[JohnDB]

In the mixing up, we may have accidentally happened upon another angle worth considerating... lol, I couldn't decide between the word considering and consideration... if only to eliminate it as a valid possibility.

Specifically, as I was following the conversation, the brass serpent on a pole came to mind and the significance it has as a representation of Jesus (as becoming as one of us), the second Adam, and also how the number of the antichrist beast is the number of a man ( does this relate in any way to the gematria of 'Adam' or even ha'adam?

Numerology/gematria figures heavily in Hebrew writing and thought....including the "seraph" (which is the Hebrew word for snake and a symbol of wisdom)

Hebrew is a metaphoric language. It is so interwoven into Ancient Near Eastern thought that there is nothing similar today.

Sure, we have translated the scriptures into English but English is the very worst receptor language to translate the scriptures into as evidenced by my opposer's teachings. None of the symbolism or metaphors really come through the flat translations nor can they.
Man was made on the 6th day.
God rested on the 7th day.

But Jesus said that his Father was always working as if He never had stopped since the beginning of time....so which is true?

Obviously there's heavy metaphors and allusion with a metaphoric language used in a poetic fashion.
It's enough to set anyone's head a spinning who is raised in the modern westernized mindset today.

Numbers were letters and letters were numbers in Hebrew. The Torah is sung to this day. (Jews of course argue over melody tempo)

And just to keep your head spinning....
The number for Jesus is 13. 6 for fully man and 7 for completely God....
It's type is used for Jesus throughout scriptures as well.

 

[Mem]

i don't know about the number ..
but the serpent on the pole has always amazed me how that the instrument of their judgement is the same thing they had to look toward and behold in order to have salvation. how that similarly our flesh condemns us, and Christ came in the flesh and that His flesh was lifted up for our redemption. how the serpent in the wilderness was covered in brass/bronze, and God enrobed Himself in humanity.
the whole aspect of covering, being wrapped up in a garment -- Adam & Woman's garments, which they had made themselves, being unfit, and God giving them instead garments He Himself made. so also we 'put on Christ' and to 'enter His rest' is to cease from our own works, and do His; as the white robes in the Revelation of Christ are called the righteous acts of His saints.

and all they had to do in the wilderness, to be healed, was look

I recall having heard that brass is symbolic of judgment, but I don't recall when where, how, or why. Still, it is true that Christ took off His robe and put upon Himself our 'robe' of judgment. So that when we look, we can see ourselves judged and yes, rest in knowing our debt is paid ln full through Him. He lays His garment over us and covers us and provides us wedding garments!What a Wonderful Saviour, what a Mighty God!

Numerology/gematria figures heavily in Hebrew writing and thought....including the "seraph" (which is the Hebrew word for snake and a symbol of wisdom)

Hebrew is a metaphoric language. It is so interwoven into Ancient Near Eastern thought that there is nothing similar today.

Sure, we have translated the scriptures into English but English is the very worst receptor language to translate the scriptures into as evidenced by my opposer's teachings. None of the symbolism or metaphors really come through the flat translations nor can they.
Man was made on the 6th day.
God rested on the 7th day.

But Jesus said that his Father was always working as if He never had stopped since the beginning of time....so which is true?

Obviously there's heavy metaphors and allusion with a metaphoric language used in a poetic fashion.
It's enough to set anyone's head a spinning who is raised in the modern westernized mindset today.

Numbers were letters and letters were numbers in Hebrew. The Torah is sung to this day. (Jews of course argue over melody tempo)

And just to keep your head spinning....
The number for Jesus is 13. 6 for fully man and 7 for completely God....
It's type is used for Jesus throughout scriptures as well.

I3 is also said to be the number for love (though the Hebrew word for it escapes me atm) and when shared with another, 13+13=26, the gematria for YHVH.

 

[Magenta]

did they become like God by committing sin?
as Satan suggested they would?
is rebelling against our Creator the way to become like Him?

1) The serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your
eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

2) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil."

The serpent did not say, for instance, you will become like God to be omnipresent.
Or you will become like God to be all powerful. No. He said as I have quoted many times.

And God agreed that they had become like Him ("one of Us") in that way.