All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[AtonedFor]

There is no invisible, imminent return of Jesus where the saved
magically disappear and everyone wonders where we went.

Aaaah butski, please sir ...

Margaret MacDonald (who was into the occult) had a vision or whatever around 1850
that revealed to her something about a rapture before the great tribulation!!!

And dat's where the whole thing started, and t'was picked up by one John Darby
(or whoever) who began making it famous (with the help of our mortal enemy, Satan).

IMO, this doctrine will serve nicely to cause a great falling away (apostacy) of the "saints".

 

[dcontroversal]

Aaaah butski, please sir ...

Margaret MacDonald (who was into the occult) had a vision or whatever around 1850
that revealed to her something about a rapture before the great tribulation!!!

And dat's where the whole thing started, and t'was picked up by one John Darby
(or whoever) who began making it famous (with the help of our mortal enemy, Satan).

IMO, this doctrine will serve nicely to cause a great falling away (apostacy) of the "saints".

I agree with you on this one.....when the crapo hits the fan all those who believed their preachers will begin to wonder what else is wrong and or what else were they lied to about.....

 

[AtonedFor]

when the crapo hits the fan all those who believed their preachers
will begin to wonder what else is wrong and or what else were they lied to about.....

Maybe "lied to" is a bit harsh ...
some of them are just woefully ignorant about a whole lot of things.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe only 1 rapture which is in 2 thessalonian.

Base on what Brother jason believe, there are 2 rapture.

1. when the bride meet with the Broom/Jesus.

2. In 2 thessalonian on His second coming.

My Question is the second rapture is also for Christian/bride. What is the status of this bride, wedding ceremony is done in the first rapture.

I never heard about it. Every Christian is a bridge and the wedding ceremony is only once in the bible.

So Christian in the second rapture will not be the wife of Jesus or Indonesian say kumpul kebo/ living together without marriage and it is sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe "lied to" is a bit harsh ...
some of them are just woefully ignorant about a whole lot of things.

I agree and will also say.....if it is not true it is a...........?

 

[AtonedFor]

So Christian in the second rapture will not be the wife of Jesus
or Indonesian say kumpul kebo/ living together without marriage and it is sin.

Looks like broski Jason is okay with that lifestyle!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were teaching anything and I got you were playing advocate.....all I know is this....I was raised under imminent return theology, taught it and dogmatically defended it and then I started seeing scriptures that contradict it and it was a question that actually started my quest and after 25 years of studying in particular the end I changed my mind to post tribulation-pre wrath resurrection/change.....Everyone who teaches imminent return places it before the events of Revelation and here is my problem and question that sent me on my 25 year quest.

The saints murdered at the 5th seal for a witness and testimony are told to wait a while until their fellow brethren are killed in like manner.
The saints that are murdered by the beast for refusing to take the mark which are the brothers killed in like manner..

Two things...
1. They LIVE and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected
2. There is but ONE resurrection of the righteous

The bible does not teach a split resurrection of the saved saints as there is but ONE as found in Revelation 20.

NO way it can happen before the saints that are killed for a witness, testimony of Jesus and refusal to take the mark.

7th trump resurrection/change fits this and jives.....

Same thing with the invisible imminent return...

1. Acts teaches that the disciples will SEE JESUS come in the CLOUDS with power and great glory
2. Jesus told the LOST religious Pharisees that they would see him come in the clouds with power and great glory
3. Revelation teaches that every kindred, every eye and they which pierced him will SEE HIM come with the clouds and great glory

Jesus said his coming would be like 2 things which are BOTH VISIBLE

1. Lightning shining from the East to the West
2. Like buzzards (eagles) gathered on a carcass

Both are visible

There is no invisible, imminent return of Jesus where the saved magically disappear and everyone wonders where we went.
It is visible and occurs after the saints loose their heads for failing to take the mark which JIVES with 2nd Thessalonians and the MAN of SIN being revealed and the APOSTATIZATION of humanity which I think is a final call for humanity to choose God or the beast......

These are but two of the things which I believe contradict imminent return....I know it does not matter, but I wrote a 212 book of scriptures in context that contradicts the imminent return......I even have a copy being circulated around Australia HAHA

lol.. Well I have studied this for years. And to me, no one has disproven pre-trib. Not saying I agree with pre-trib, just stating no one has disprove it in my mind..

People have made me question it. Which is why I will not say this is my belief, but questioning and disproving are two different things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Aaaah butski, please sir ...

Margaret MacDonald (who was into the occult) had a vision or whatever around 1850
that revealed to her something about a rapture before the great tribulation!!!

And dat's where the whole thing started, and t'was picked up by one John Darby
(or whoever) who began making it famous (with the help of our mortal enemy, Satan).

IMO, this doctrine will serve nicely to cause a great falling away (apostacy) of the "saints".

lol.. The falling away occurs BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. so how could that cause the falling away.

this is one of the reasons I will not discredit pre-trib, most who try to discredit it have to make rediculous claims, and excuses in order to do so.

this is one of those things..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with you on this one.....when the crapo hits the fan all those who believed their preachers will begin to wonder what else is wrong and or what else were they lied to about.....

if they believe this, there are more issues to worry about.

again, those who are secure in their faith in God will nto be affected by this either way, to say otherwise is to deny the faith of those in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe "lied to" is a bit harsh ...
some of them are just woefully ignorant about a whole lot of things.

yet further proof. This proves pretrib is a lie?

where is all the proof. are all we going to do is make strawman, there is a strawmen thread for those who just want to make strawmen arguments.

 

[AtonedFor]

The falling away occurs BEFORE the man of sin is revealed.
so how could that cause the falling away.

Yes, you are right ... I stand corrected.

 

[dcontroversal]

lol.. Well I have studied this for years. And to me, no one has disproven pre-trib. Not saying I agree with pre-trib, just stating no one has disprove it in my mind..

People have made me question it. Which is why I will not say this is my belief, but questioning and disproving are two different things.

I like you and no offence, but if the fact that there is one resurrection of the righteous as found in Rev. 20 and the people killed for not taking the mark live and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected does not prove that the resurrection cannot take place before the events of Revelation and the mark of the beast then I don't know what would convince you....

 

[Elin]

still 2 problems.

parousia only means the coming, or the arrival of a planned destination.

Actually, parousia is a going out to meet the dignitary and accompanying him back to his destination, as the crowds on Palm sunday went out from Jerusalem to meet Jesus and accompanied him back into Jerusalem.

We are told we will meet jesus in the clouds, so in that coming, it is fulfilled, WHEN WE MEET him n the clouds.

the second coming (Parousia) is said to be completed when he steps foot on the mount of olives and splits it in two.

so we have 2 parousia's (as the greek word means)

as for the antichrist. when is he revealed.

some say when the 7 year covenant is made.

some say in the middle.

so here we have the possibility of a pre trib and mid trib coming in the air.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I like you and no offence, but if the fact that there is one resurrection of the righteous as found in Rev. 20 and the people killed for not taking the mark live and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected does not prove that the resurrection cannot take place before the events of Revelation and the mark of the beast then I don't know what would convince you....

from what your telling me, only those killed for not taking the mark will be resurrected in rev 20. Not the church. so if anything, this would still prove that there may be another resurrection.

as I have said many times, to many things have not been answered.

1. Why save 144000 people to spread the gospel if the church is still here.

2. why send two witnesses to spread the gospel and do signs if the church is still here.

3. Tribulation is also called the time of testing, and the time of Gods wrath. the church is promised to be spared from the time of Gods wrath, and they do not need to be tested, they are already saved. so why are they going through wrath and testing?

4. The antichrist can not be revealed until that which restrains is removed, What can restrain the man of sin, but the church, indwelt by the HS.

5. How can people be standing in front of God, who were saved by the blood of the lamb, having been judged and given their heavenly robes and crowns, When Christ comes to open the first seal (this is one of the greatest arguments about a prewrath rapture.. some resurrection had to have taken place at this time. for they even claim, Jesus WASHED THEM and MADE THEM WHOLE. these are not angels. these are resurrected saints.

these are just a few, I know there is more. I can look them up for you if you would like, but not sure it would help in our discussion, since it seems yuo have already made your mind up.

I have not however. Just not something I deem that major that I need to know what the exact truth is, and as I said, I am not sure we can know, until it happens. all we can do is guess.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Actually, parousia is a going out to meet the dignitary and accompanying him back to his destination, as the crowds on Palm sunday went out from Jerusalem to meet Jesus and accompanied him back into Jerusalem.

15.86 παρέρχομαιb; παραγίνομαιa; πάρειμιb; παρουσίαb, ας f; παρίσταμαιe (and 2nd aorist active): to come to be present at a particular place—‘to come, to arrive, to come to be present.’
παρέρχομαιb: παρελθὼν διακονήσει αὐτοῖς ‘when he arrives, he will serve them’ Lk 12:37.
παραγίνομαιa: ὄρθρου δὲ πάλιν παρεγένετο εἰς τὸ ἱερόν ‘early in the morning he came again to the Temple’ Jn 8:2; Χριστὸς δὲ παραγενόμενος ἀρχιερεὺς τῶν γενομένων ἀγαθῶν ‘Christ came as the high priest of the good things to come’ He 9:11.
πάρειμιb: οὗτοι καὶ ἐνθάδε πάρεισιν ‘these men have come here’ Ac 17:6; ὁμοθυμαδὸν δὲ παρῆσαν πρὸς αὐτόν ‘so in a group they came to him’ Ac 12:20.
παρουσίαb: παρεκάλεσεν ἡμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ Τίτου ‘but God, who encouraged us with the coming of Titus’ 2 Cor 7:6; τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος ‘what will happen to show that it is the time for your coming and the end of the age’ Mt 24:3.
παρίσταμαιe: παρέστη γάρ μοι ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ τοῦ θεοῦ οὗ εἰμι ἐγώ, ᾧ καὶ λατρεύω, ἄγγελος ‘for last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship came to me’ or ‘… appeared to me’ Ac 27:23.


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, pp. 192–193). New York: United Bible Societies.

from what I see, only one of the examples would fit what you said, so although you are correct in what you said. There are other uses of the word.

 

[Jason0047]

Dear Jackson123:

2 Thessalonians 2 deals with the Day of the Lord. The confusion arises on this portion of Scripture because folks do not properly understand the key events involved in relation to the Day of the Lord.

If you were to examine Scripture. The 6th seal and the Day of the Lord are aligned with each other in two ways.

#1. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord have blood moons and black skies (Revelation 6:12; c.f. with Joel 2:31, & Acts 2:20).

#2. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord are called a Day of Wrath, too (Revelation 6:17; c.f. with Zephaniah 1:7, 14, 15).​

Scriptures says we are saved from the Wrath to come (1 Thesssalonians 1:10).

In other words, the Thessalonians believe they missed out on the Pre-Trib Rapture and will now go thru the Tribulation with the period of time within the Tribulation called the "Day of the Lord" (i.e. KJV says "Day of Christ) or the Wrath to come. This period of time lasts from the breaking of the sixth seal and ends with Christ's 2nd Coming and the purification of this world by fire (So a new age of peace under Christ's rule can begin). They were worried that they missed the Rapture and the Day of the Lord had begun already. But Paul is saying that such a day (period of time known as the Day of the Lord) will not begin until the middle of the Tribulation first takes place with the man of sin revealing himself to be God in the Jewish temple. When this happens, the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast is not far behind; And many in the world including a lot of the saints will be killed. This lines up with the 4th seal of death, which then leads to the 5th seal. For the 5th seal plays off the 4th seal because in the 5th seal, the saints want vengeance in heaven from God (No doubt because they were just killed and or beheaded by the Antichrist); And the 6th seal is a response from the Lord which then begins a time of Judgment of God (i.e. the Day of the Lord and or the Great Tribulation) (i.e. the Day of Wrath).

 

[dcontroversal]

I did not say that the ones beheaded are the only ones resurrected, but rather that they live and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected..

Where does it say the 144,000 spread the gospel?

The two witnesses sent with power as the beast makes war against the saints, wears them out and scatters the power of the holy people

The wrath is not announced as being here until the 7th trump and this announcement is in heaven...The people who are hiding and LOST think and say that it is the wrath of God is here wrongly at the sun, moon and stars being affected at the 6th seal.

Christ opens the 1st thru 7th seal in heaven and no where does it say he comes here to do that.

And I don't believe that all we can do is guess......as there are hundreds of verses in context that teach about it...

QUOTE=eternally-gratefull;1813051]from what your telling me, only those killed for not taking the mark will be resurrected in rev 20. Not the church. so if anything, this would still prove that there may be another resurrection.

as I have said many times, to many things have not been answered.

1. Why save 144000 people to spread the gospel if the church is still here.

2. why send two witnesses to spread the gospel and do signs if the church is still here.

3. Tribulation is also called the time of testing, and the time of Gods wrath. the church is promised to be spared from the time of Gods wrath, and they do not need to be tested, they are already saved. so why are they going through wrath and testing?

4. The antichrist can not be revealed until that which restrains is removed, What can restrain the man of sin, but the church, indwelt by the HS.

5. How can people be standing in front of God, who were saved by the blood of the lamb, having been judged and given their heavenly robes and crowns, When Christ comes to open the first seal (this is one of the greatest arguments about a prewrath rapture.. some resurrection had to have taken place at this time. for they even claim, Jesus WASHED THEM and MADE THEM WHOLE. these are not angels. these are resurrected saints.

these are just a few, I know there is more. I can look them up for you if you would like, but not sure it would help in our discussion, since it seems yuo have already made your mind up.

I have not however. Just not something I deem that major that I need to know what the exact truth is, and as I said, I am not sure we can know, until it happens. all we can do is guess. [/QUOTE]

 

[Jason0047]

from what your telling me, only those killed for not taking the mark will be resurrected in rev 20. Not the church. so if anything, this would still prove that there may be another resurrection.

as I have said many times, to many things have not been answered.

1. Why save 144000 people to spread the gospel if the church is still here.

2. why send two witnesses to spread the gospel and do signs if the church is still here.

3. Tribulation is also called the time of testing, and the time of Gods wrath. the church is promised to be spared from the time of Gods wrath, and they do not need to be tested, they are already saved. so why are they going through wrath and testing?

4. The antichrist can not be revealed until that which restrains is removed, What can restrain the man of sin, but the church, indwelt by the HS.

5. How can people be standing in front of God, who were saved by the blood of the lamb, having been judged and given their heavenly robes and crowns, When Christ comes to open the first seal (this is one of the greatest arguments about a prewrath rapture.. some resurrection had to have taken place at this time. for they even claim, Jesus WASHED THEM and MADE THEM WHOLE. these are not angels. these are resurrected saints.

these are just a few, I know there is more. I can look them up for you if you would like, but not sure it would help in our discussion, since it seems yuo have already made your mind up.

I have not however. Just not something I deem that major that I need to know what the exact truth is, and as I said, I am not sure we can know, until it happens. all we can do is guess.

I like some of what you said here. You might be interested in checking out my really long chronology on Revelation and the Olivet Discourse here:

ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

I spent several months creating it, and re-arranging as I went based on what I seen in Scripture. I have provided some lengthy commentaries on some key passages.

 

[Elin]

15.86 παρέρχομαιb; παραγίνομαιa; πάρειμιb; παρουσίαb, ας f; παρίσταμαιe (and 2nd aorist active): to come to be present at a particular place—‘to come, to arrive, to come to be present.’
παρέρχομαιb: παρελθὼν διακονήσει αὐτοῖς ‘when he arrives, he will serve them’ Lk 12:37.
παραγίνομαιa: ὄρθρου δὲ πάλιν παρεγένετο εἰς τὸ ἱερόν ‘early in the morning he came again to the Temple’ Jn 8:2; Χριστὸς δὲ παραγενόμενος ἀρχιερεὺς τῶν γενομένων ἀγαθῶν ‘Christ came as the high priest of the good things to come’ He 9:11.
πάρειμιb: οὗτοι καὶ ἐνθάδε πάρεισιν ‘these men have come here’ Ac 17:6; ὁμοθυμαδὸν δὲ παρῆσαν πρὸς αὐτόν ‘so in a group they came to him’ Ac 12:20.
παρουσίαb: παρεκάλεσεν ἡμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ Τίτου ‘but God, who encouraged us with the coming of Titus’ 2 Cor 7:6; τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος ‘what will happen to show that it is the time for your coming and the end of the age’ Mt 24:3.
παρίσταμαιe: παρέστη γάρ μοι ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ τοῦ θεοῦ οὗ εἰμι ἐγώ, ᾧ καὶ λατρεύω, ἄγγελος ‘for last night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship came to me’ or ‘… appeared to me’ Ac 27:23.


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, pp. 192–193). New York: United Bible Societies.

from what I see, only one of the examples would fit what you said, so although you are correct in what you said. There are other uses of the word.

So it's a matter of understanding which usage is meant.

 

[Jason0047]

I like some of what you said here. You might be interested in checking out my really long chronology on Revelation and the Olivet Discourse here:

ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

I spent several months creating it, and re-arranging as I went based on what I seen in Scripture. I have provided some lengthy commentaries on some key passages.

The only thing I would add as an update to my Chronology of Revelation is that the 7th King (i.e. Kingdom) could possibly be the U.S. For there are...

The Five Kings That Are Fallen:

1st King = Egypt
2nd King = Assyria
3rd King = Babylon (Statue of Neb. starts) (Different Beast Animals Start)
4th King = Medo Persia
5th King = Greece

The One That is:

6th King = Rome

THe one that is to come:

7th King = Possibly the U.S. or the Revised Roman Empire.
(If it is the U.S., You must take note that Catholicism has a huge influence on this country; It is the religion that is shown in most movies, TV shows, comics, etc.) (Most people in my experience I have met who are Catholic are also wordly focused).

All These Kings Are A Part of the Beast's 7 Heads. For Mountains are Kingdoms.

8th King = Anti-Christ (Beast) and His rule.
(Anti-Christ will destroy the Whore; I believe he will destroy the Vatican).

The Beast is a Demon that is why he is a part of the previous seven.

The Woman who rides the Beast:

Is currently Catholicism. It has taken on different (But similar forms thru out the past Kingdoms). Satan is the god of this world and he has rules over it's world leaders for a long time.