All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not say that the ones beheaded are the only ones resurrected, but rather that they live and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected..

Where does it say the 144,000 spread the gospel?

The two witnesses sent with power as the beast makes war against the saints, wears them out and scatters the power of the holy people

The wrath is not announced as being here until the 7th trump and this announcement is in heaven...The people who are hiding and LOST think and say that it is the wrath of God is here wrongly at the sun, moon and stars being affected at the 6th seal.

Christ opens the 1st thru 7th seal in heaven and no where does it say he comes here to do that.

And I don't believe that all we can do is guess......as there are hundreds of verses in context that teach about it...

So what your saying is God saves people just to have them sit on their behinds (Yes I know, alot of churches do this, it does not mean they are in Gods will) and twiddle their thumbs? All people who are saved are to to go make disciples of others, it is our main mission.

Sorry, but all of the judgments (seal bowl or whatever) are judgments, they are all Gods wrath. God used other nations to spread his wrath to Israel all the time. All of those things are a part of his judgment on the earth, it is when God finally says enough is enough (which is a great thing, because people always say God is allowing all this evil now. well yes he is, willing that non should perish. but we can all praise God one day he will not hold back.

And I can take your 100 verses and show another 100 verses which would show otherwise. So I would not be to proud to say you may be wrong on this issue. I certainly am not.

you made some compelling arguments, But did not prove your point. (ya still have people risen, saved, and glorified praising the lamb when he opens the FIRST SEAL)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The only thing I would add as an update to my Chronology of Revelation is that the 7th King (i.e. Kingdom) could possibly be the U.S. For there are...

The Five Kings That Are Fallen:

1st King = Egypt
2nd King = Assyria
3rd King = Babylon (Statue of Neb. starts) (Different Beast Animals Start)
4th King = Medo Persia
5th King = Greece

The One That is:

6th King = Rome

THe one that is to come:

7th King = Possibly the U.S. or the Revised Roman Empire.
(If it is the U.S., You must take note that Catholicism has a huge influence on this country; It is the religion that is shown in most movies, TV shows, comics, etc.) (Most people in my experience I have met who are Catholic are also wordly focused).

All These Kings Are A Part of the Beast's 7 Heads. For Mountains are Kingdoms.

8th King = Anti-Christ (Beast) and His rule.
(Anti-Christ will destroy the Whore; I believe he will destroy the Vatican).

The Beast is a Demon that is why he is a part of the previous seven.

The Woman who rides the Beast:

Is currently Catholicism. It has taken on different (But similar forms thru out the past Kingdoms). Satan is the god of this world and he has rules over it's world leaders for a long time.

I agree with everything but your last point. the final beast is the 4th beast, which is Rome, no one on earth would consider the US to be a revised roman empire, it has to come from Europe somewhere.

It is interesting we did a study on Europe. right now China has the greatest army, Followed by most likely the US then russia (as far as manpowr. machine and money goes)

if the european union would combine under one king, one flag and one army, they would at once become the greatest army on earth. in manpower. money and machinery, far surpassing the US.

I believe the US may become part of that union (since it has eurpoian ties) but is not that kingdom.

I also believe during the time of Gods wrath when 1/3 the earth is destroyed by fire from heaven (nuclear war??) it is north and south America that gets wiped out. Basically God brings things back to the way they were in the time of Christ,

I used to be taught the US was this beast, and even fought for it, but I do not see it this way anymore.

 

[Jason0047]

I agree with everything but your last point. the final beast is the 4th beast, which is Rome, no one on earth would consider the US to be a revised roman empire, it has to come from Europe somewhere.

It is interesting we did a study on Europe. right now China has the greatest army, Followed by most likely the US then russia (as far as manpowr. machine and money goes)

if the european union would combine under one king, one flag and one army, they would at once become the greatest army on earth. in manpower. money and machinery, far surpassing the US.

I believe the US may become part of that union (since it has eurpoian ties) but is not that kingdom.

I also believe during the time of Gods wrath when 1/3 the earth is destroyed by fire from heaven (nuclear war??) it is north and south America that gets wiped out. Basically God brings things back to the way they were in the time of Christ, [/B]

I used to be taught the US was this beast, and even fought for it, but I do not see it this way anymore.

I am not saying the U.S. is the revised Roman Empire. The words "and" & "or" were used in that sentence. Meaning the 7th kingdom is either:

(A) United States because all the previous empires were kingdoms that appeared to have a great world influence and or rule over the Earth.

(B) Revised Roman Empire (Vatican) Rome because of it's global religious influence.

 

[Jackson123]

Dear Jackson123:

2 Thessalonians 2 deals with the Day of the Lord. The confusion arises on this portion of Scripture because folks do not properly understand the key events involved in relation to the Day of the Lord.

If you were to examine Scripture. The 6th seal and the Day of the Lord are aligned with each other in two ways.

#1. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord have blood moons and black skies (Revelation 6:12; c.f. with Joel 2:31, & Acts 2:20).

#2. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord are called a Day of Wrath, too (Revelation 6:17; c.f. with Zephaniah 1:7, 14, 15).​

Scriptures says we are saved from the Wrath to come (1 Thesssalonians 1:10).

In other words, the Thessalonians believe they missed out on the Pre-Trib Rapture and will now go thru the Tribulation with the period of time within the Tribulation called the "Day of the Lord" (i.e. KJV says "Day of Christ) or the Wrath to come. This period of time lasts from the breaking of the sixth seal and ends with Christ's 2nd Coming and the purification of this world by fire (So a new age of peace under Christ's rule can begin). They were worried that they missed the Rapture and the Day of the Lord had begun already. But Paul is saying that such a day (period of time known as the Day of the Lord) will not begin until the middle of the Tribulation first takes place with the man of sin revealing himself to be God in the Jewish temple. When this happens, the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast is not far behind; And many in the world including a lot of the saints will be killed. This lines up with the 4th seal of death, which then leads to the 5th seal. For the 5th seal plays off the 4th seal because in the 5th seal, the saints want vengeance in heaven from God (No doubt because they were just killed and or beheaded by the Antichrist); And the 6th seal is a response from the Lord which then begins a time of Judgment of God (i.e. the Day of the Lord and or the Great Tribulation) (i.e. the Day of Wrath).

Brother jason, If I understand correctly this is what you try to say:

1. 4th and 5th seal happen when Antichrist sit in the temple and declare himself as a God.

2. In this period/second part of tribulation, the Antichrist kill a lot of saint/Christian.

Mean Christian is still on the earth not rapture yet.

Then 6th seal is when Christ come to kill the Antichrist and take his bride with Him/ this is rapture happen, not before tribulation.

 

[Jason0047]

Brother jason, If I understand correctly this is what you try to say:

1. 4th and 5th seal happen when Antichrist sit in the temple and declare himself as a God.

2. In this period/second part of tribulation, the Antichrist kill a lot of saint/Christian.

Mean Christian is still on the earth not rapture yet.

Then 6th seal is when Christ come to kill the Antichrist and take his bride with Him/ this is rapture happen, not before tribulation.

No. The 4th seal is death. This is when the Antichrist enforces the Mark and kills many saints. The 5th seal is where the saints cry out for vengeance. 6th seal is God's response in the saint's cry for justice (Which begins the period of time known as the Day of the Lord).

 

[Jackson123]

No. The 4th seal is death. This is when the Antichrist enforces the Mark and kills many saints. The 5th seal is where the saints cry out for vengeance. 6th seal is God's response in the saint's cry for justice (Which begins the period of time known as the Day of the Lord).

Brother Jason.

When is 4th seal happen, after 3,5 years of tribulation or before?

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am not saying the U.S. is the revised Roman Empire. The words "and" & "or" were used in that sentence. Meaning the 7th kingdom is either:

(A) United States because all the previous empires were kingdoms that appeared to have a great world influence and or rule over the Earth.

(B) Revised Roman Empire (Vatican) Rome because of it's global religious influence.

The U.S. will not be the revised Roman empire.
I thought this fallacy for years because it was what I heard, but now through study and looking at world events we can see that the revised Roman empire is what is taking place with the European union.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not saying the U.S. is the revised Roman Empire. The words "and" & "or" were used in that sentence. Meaning the 7th kingdom is either:

(A) United States because all the previous empires were kingdoms that appeared to have a great world influence and or rule over the Earth.

(B) Revised Roman Empire (Vatican) Rome because of it's global religious influence.

or option c. None of the above.

 

[Jackson123]

Dear Jackson123:

But Paul is saying that such a day (period of time known as the Day of the Lord) will not begin until the middle of the Tribulation first takes place with the man of sin revealing himself to be God in the Jewish temple. When this happens, the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast is not far behind; And many in the world including a lot of the saints will be killed. This lines up with the 4th seal of death, which then leads to the 5th seal. For the 5th seal plays off the 4th seal because in the 5th seal, the saints want vengeance in heaven from God (No doubt because they were just killed and or beheaded by the Antichrist); And the 6th seal is a response from the Lord which then begins a time of Judgment of God (i.e. the Day of the Lord and or the Great Tribulation) (i.e. the Day of Wrath).

Brother Jason.

In the statement above you try to outline when the day of the Lord/ the second coming as follow:.
1. there will be mid tribulation where a man of sin claim to be God in the jewish temple and will enforce mark of the beast.

2. During this time, a lot of saints will be kill.


It mean actually you believe that in the second half or tribulation saints still in the world, not rapture yet. Mean actually you don't believe in pre trib rapture.

 

[Kerry]

The biggest problem is that people get confused about the rapture and the second coming. They try to put these two events into one. I have asked this question many times and have never received an answer. Show in the bible where God has poured out His wrath on people that love and trust him. You won't find it and the trib is His wrath.

 

[Sophia]

The biggest problem is that people get confused about the rapture and the second coming. They try to put these two events into one. I have asked this question many times and have never received an answer. Show in the bible where God has poured out His wrath on people that love and trust him. You won't find it and the trib is His wrath.

But He has poured out His Wrath in the PRESENCE of His People. God can't aim or control His own wrath? No Believer is under His Wrath, but that does not mean they they won't witness it, second hand, and praise God. Protected in the sight of storm.

 

[ELECT]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Thanks for the proof of the pretrib rapture. Now you were saying this verse is satan's???? You think satan agrees with God???? Hmmmmm

Mark 13:21-27King James Version (KJV)

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[ELECT]

The biggest problem is that people get confused about the rapture and the second coming. They try to put these two events into one. I have asked this question many times and have never received an answer. Show in the bible where God has poured out His wrath on people that love and trust him. You won't find it and the trib is His wrath.

you asked the wrong persons thats why

How readesth thou?
Ezekiel 21:1-5King James Version (KJV)

21 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.

 

[ELECT]

But He has poured out His Wrath in the PRESENCE of His People. God can't aim or control His own wrath? No Believer is under His Wrath, but that does not mean they they won't witness it, second hand, and praise God. Protected in the sight of storm.

[h=1]Psalm 58:10-11King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

 

[ELECT]

Brother Jason.

In the statement above you try to outline when the day of the Lord/ the second coming as follow:.
1. there will be mid tribulation where a man of sin claim to be God in the jewish temple and will enforce mark of the beast.

2. During this time, a lot of saints will be kill.


It mean actually you believe that in the second half or tribulation saints still in the world, not rapture yet. Mean actually you don't believe in pre trib rapture.

are you implying that animal sacrifices will return ?

 

[ELECT]

Dear Jackson123:

2 Thessalonians 2 deals with the Day of the Lord. The confusion arises on this portion of Scripture because folks do not properly understand the key events involved in relation to the Day of the Lord.

If you were to examine Scripture. The 6th seal and the Day of the Lord are aligned with each other in two ways.

#1. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord have blood moons and black skies (Revelation 6:12; c.f. with Joel 2:31, & Acts 2:20).

#2. Both 6th seal & Day of the Lord are called a Day of Wrath, too (Revelation 6:17; c.f. with Zephaniah 1:7, 14, 15).​

Scriptures says we are saved from the Wrath to come (1 Thesssalonians 1:10).

In other words, the Thessalonians believe they missed out on the Pre-Trib Rapture and will now go thru the Tribulation with the period of time within the Tribulation called the "Day of the Lord" (i.e. KJV says "Day of Christ) or the Wrath to come. This period of time lasts from the breaking of the sixth seal and ends with Christ's 2nd Coming and the purification of this world by fire (So a new age of peace under Christ's rule can begin). They were worried that they missed the Rapture and the Day of the Lord had begun already. But Paul is saying that such a day (period of time known as the Day of the Lord) will not begin until the middle of the Tribulation first takes place with the man of sin revealing himself to be God in the Jewish temple. When this happens, the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast is not far behind; And many in the world including a lot of the saints will be killed. This lines up with the 4th seal of death, which then leads to the 5th seal. For the 5th seal plays off the 4th seal because in the 5th seal, the saints want vengeance in heaven from God (No doubt because they were just killed and or beheaded by the Antichrist); And the 6th seal is a response from the Lord which then begins a time of Judgment of God (i.e. the Day of the Lord and or the Great Tribulation) (i.e. the Day of Wrath).

this is why the majority of the world would perish because the mark of the beast is already here ? read ezikiel 8 -10

 

[Kerry]

So God protects them during the trib. Then why are those under the altar in heaven crying out for vengeance when their heads were cut off in the trib? Again confusing the two events. There will be many people saved during the trib and the rapture before the trib will be a big part of it. The Antichrist will kill as many christians as he can as He is doing presently. To be a christian during the trib will like being a christian in Rome, but ten times worse.

How did God protect Noah from His wrath? How did God protect Lot from His wrath? by getting them out of there that's how. How did God protect the people of Judea that trusted Him, by getting them out of there. How will he protect us that believe? by getting us out of here.

 

[Kerry]

this is why the majority of the world would perish because the mark of the beast is already here ? read ezikiel 8 -10

Okay, and what is that? I was gonna leave, but I have to hear this.

 

[ELECT]

So God protects them during the trib. Then why are those under the altar in heaven crying out for vengeance when their heads were cut off in the trib? Again confusing the two events. There will be many people saved during the trib and the rapture before the trib will be a big part of it. The Antichrist will kill as many christians as he can as He is doing presently. To be a christian during the trib will like being a christian in Rome, but ten times worse.

How did God protect Noah from His wrath? How did God protect Lot from His wrath? by getting them out of there that's how. How did God protect the people of Judea that trusted Him, by getting them out of there. How will he protect us that believe? by getting us out of here.

were they taken to heaven why or why not ?

 

[ELECT]

Okay, and what is that? I was gonna leave, but I have to hear this.

the persons that died before the tribulation period even those that die before us as we speak now who were wicked , Do you think they receive the mark of the beast Why or Why not