All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[Sophia]

So God protects them during the trib. Then why are those under the altar in heaven crying out for vengeance when their heads were cut off in the trib? Again confusing the two events. There will be many people saved during the trib and the rapture before the trib will be a big part of it. The Antichrist will kill as many christians as he can as He is doing presently. To be a christian during the trib will like being a christian in Rome, but ten times worse.

How did God protect Noah from His wrath? How did God protect Lot from His wrath? by getting them out of there that's how. How did God protect the people of Judea that trusted Him, by getting them out of there. How will he protect us that believe? by getting us out of here.

You are confusing the persecution of the Saints with the Wrath of God. Why?
Is the beast and his followers one of the trumpets or vials? No. That is "man's wrath", not God's Wrath.

This event is more like one of the battles while the Israelites entered the land. God had wrath on their enemies, and won the battle, but did not harm His own people. Some Israelites were still slain by their enemies at times, but not by God's wrath accidentally in the battle.

 

[Sophia]

The Return of Christ is when we enter into a new land, the Kingdom of God! There will be a battle, and it will be won.

 

[Jackson123]

are you implying that animal sacrifices will return ?

Actually I response to brother Jason,

Brother Jason state that he believe pre trib rapture, but his statement above said in the second half of tribulation the man of sin will kill the saints.

It imply the saint/christian not rapture yet in the second half of tribulation.

 

[Jackson123]

So God protects them during the trib. Then why are those under the altar in heaven crying out for vengeance when their heads were cut off in the trib? Again confusing the two events. There will be many people saved during the trib and the rapture before the trib will be a big part of it. The Antichrist will kill as many christians as he can as He is doing presently. To be a christian during the trib will like being a christian in Rome, but ten times worse.

How did God protect Noah from His wrath? How did God protect Lot from His wrath? by getting them out of there that's how. How did God protect the people of Judea that trusted Him, by getting them out of there. How will he protect us that believe? by getting us out of here.

So you believe in 3 rapture?

1. before tribulation
2. after tribulation
3. after millennium

Can you provide with the verse brother?

 

[Jackson123]

I believe rapture happen after tribulation

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[TD="align: center"][h=1]2 Thessalonians Chapter 2[/h][/TD]
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Viewing the Standard King James Version. Switch to the 1611 KJV 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 or view a 2 Thessalonians 2 parallel comparison.


[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming), and by our gathering together unto him, (rapture)
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (rapture and second coming)except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(antichrist revealed)
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


summary:

1. rapture and second coming not happen till Antichrist reveal/tribulation.

2. In the rapture event, the dead in Christ will rise first than the living will rapture.

3. that is the first resurrection. And only 2 resurrection. the second resurrection happen after millennium. it is for the unbeliever.

If one believe pre rapture trib, than will be 3 resurrection.

1. before trib, for the dead in Christ and the believer that still alive.
2. after tribulation for the christian that accept the Lord and kill during tribulation
3. after millennium for unbeliever.

Bible only mention 2 resurrection.

 

[Jason0047]

this is why the majority of the world would perish because the mark of the beast is already here ? read ezikiel 8 -10

Don't really see anyone taking a mark in their foreheads and or hands today on a massive scale.

 

[GaryA]

That happens all the time, people making scriptures say what they want.
Those who believe in a pre-trib still can not explain how Revelation says that Christians will be persecuted and killed during the tribulation, and how 1 Corinthians says the rapture happens at the last trumpet, not before the first trumpet is even sounded.
Then on top of that the scriptures that say we will not be here to face and endure God's wrath, and Revelation clearly says that God's wrath is poured out after the end of the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. Which happens to be the 7th, or last trumpet.

This is the reason many ( most? ) do not [ properly ] understand End Times prophecy. They have been led to believe - because of misinterpreted scripture - that the 'Great Tribulation' is [ either ] 7 or 3.5 years in length. The Bible does not indicate the exact length of the 'Great Tribulation'.

CLUE / HINT: Study the End Times "in event terms" - as a series of 'events' - without regard to the length of any / each event, but rather - only regarding "what occurs before what", "what occurs after what", and "what occurs at the same time as what"...

( You may be quite surprised at what you discover. )

 

[GaryA]

It's more to it then that. When a person does not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, they are not preparing themselves spiritually in the fact that He could return at any hour or day that they do not know. They are not looking for Him and therefore, they will be caught by surprise to the Lord's return. It is a parallel of the Global Flood. Those who did not believe in the preaching of Noah's coming Judgment perished in the flood.

The "as a thief in the night" warning is for the lost world. Those who know Him will not be caught unawares...

1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]1[/SUP] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [SUP]2[/SUP] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [SUP]3[/SUP] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [SUP]4[/SUP] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5[/SUP] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

[notuptome]

are you implying that animal sacrifices will return ?

One can see that in Zech 14. This is during the millennial kingdom. I see it as reminder of death. There be no humans dying during this time so animals will serve as a reminder of death in the physical realm.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

This is the reason many ( most? ) do not [ properly ] understand End Times prophecy. They have been led to believe - because of misinterpreted scripture - that the 'Great Tribulation' is [ either ] 7 or 3.5 years in length. The Bible does not indicate the exact length of the 'Great Tribulation'.

CLUE / HINT: Study the End Times "in event terms" - as a series of 'events' - without regard to the length of any / each event, but rather - only regarding "what occurs before what", "what occurs after what", and "what occurs at the same time as what"...

( You may be quite surprised at what you discover. )

Ummmmm Daniel 12 <---Michael stands to defend the Jews and it is called the time of the GREAT TRIBULATION and the time frame given to Daniel is 1335 days.....which seems to be broken down into two stages....1290 days and 45 days

30 days of peace<--1st seal
1260 days of tribulation<--2nd seal thru 7th trump<--including the 7 thunders not revealed
45 days of wrath<--bowls

and both Daniel and Revelation speak of

1. War being made against the saints of God
2. The wearing out of the saints of God
3. The jailing, murder of the saints of God

For 1260 days or 42 months or 3.5 years....so.........?

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is the reason many ( most? ) do not [ properly ] understand End Times prophecy. They have been led to believe - because of misinterpreted scripture - that the 'Great Tribulation' is [ either ] 7 or 3.5 years in length. The Bible does not indicate the exact length of the 'Great Tribulation'.

CLUE / HINT: Study the End Times "in event terms" - as a series of 'events' - without regard to the length of any / each event, but rather - only regarding "what occurs before what", "what occurs after what", and "what occurs at the same time as what"...

( You may be quite surprised at what you discover. )

The bible does not indicate how long the Great Tribulation will be????
I would say you need to go and do more studying on prophecy, let me show you a few examples.

[h=1]Revelation 10:5-7
The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand[a] to heaven 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.[/h]
Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever thatit shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 10 and Daniel 12 is talking about the same time period that is about to begin, and Daniel 12 tells us how long this period will be. It says time (1 year), times (2 years), and an half (1/2 a year) for a total of 3 1/2 years for the Great tribulation period.
The only difference between the two books is the angel Michael tells Daniel to seal the book for it is not to be opened and revealed tell at the time of the end. And in Revelation John is told by the angel which I believe to be Michael again ( even though not named ), to take and eat the book because there is still more prophecy to be done.
You take this all together and the 1,260 days given in Revelation also, these are all speaking of literal days and not years as 1,260 days on the ancient Hebrew calendar a month is 30 days, and would make that equal to 3 1/2 actual years. Now in Daniel 12 he mentions 1,290 days and 1,335 days.
Now, Jesus fulfilled the four Hebrew Spring Feasts/Holy Days at His first coming. Likewise, I believe that He will fulfill the three Hebrew Fall Feasts/Holy Days at His second coming. If you take the calendar there are 75 days from Yom Kipper to Hanukkah.
( Hanukkah was the commemoration of the dedication to a rebuilt temple in ancient times )

1,260 days + 75 days = 1,335 days

The first 30 days after the 1,260 days of great tribulation will encompass God's wrath ( bowl judgments ), and the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The final 45 days after that will be the rebuilding of the temple ( Ezekiel's temple ).

 

[AtonedFor]

But He has poured out His Wrath in the PRESENCE of His People. God can't aim or control His own wrath? No Believer is under His Wrath, but that does not mean they they won't witness it, second hand, and praise God. Protected in the sight of storm.

Yes, it's all about ... His true elect will SUPERNATUALY be protected
through ... whatever comes along ... and whenever the whatever comes along!

Obviously, cessationists need not apply ... because they're filled with deadly UNBELIEF.

His true elect know Father God and Jesus personally (John 17:3),
and they are living righteously (which covers a lot of Scriptures).

 

[AtonedFor]

Yes, it's all about ... His true elect will SUPERNATUALY be protected
through ... whatever comes along ... and whenever the whatever comes along!

Sorry, I didn't make it clear ...

His true elect will SUPERNATUALY be protected through God's wrath ...
but this has nothing to do whatsoever with the great tribulation of the antichrist.

 

[Jackson123]

To my knowledge, People that believe pre trib is believe that Tribulation as a wrath of God.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God. Example, When Jews kill Stephen, it is tribulation in the small scale, for Stephen. But not wrath of God. It is wrath of the devil. Some time God physically protect his children, some time God let people physically kill His children like in Stephen case.

In the entire history of Christianity, always God let people persecute Christian, in some part of the world.

even know, in some of the Muslim Country people persecute Christian. Than in the last 7 years before His coming, it will be global persecution. And because in the entire history God let persecution happen, why we believe God will rapture us?

This believe make us not ready for persecution.


We will protect from wrath of God but not persecution.

And wrath of God is after 7 years tribulation. It happen in His coming.

[h=1]2 Thessalonians 2:8King James Version (KJV)[/h]8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

King James Version (KJV)

 

[JesusIsAll]

I am going to prove the false prophecy of this thread, and also that most of you can't see the nose on your faces. A lot of you will stare at this scripture and not grasp things clear, so abundantly clear of the simple scene described, a scene prior to even the first seal of the tribulation being opened. There is no controversy, except among the ignorant and blind.

Revelation 5:6-10 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Two situations are extant, number one is that there is truth, and number two is that you just don't get it.

Q.E.D.

 

[notuptome]

I am going to prove the false prophecy of this thread, and also that most of you can't see the nose on your faces. A lot of you will stare at this scripture and not grasp things clear, so abundantly clear of the simple scene described, a scene prior to even the first seal of the tribulation being opened. There is no controversy, except among the ignorant and blind.

Revelation 5:6-10 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Two situations are extant, number one is that there is truth, and number two is that you just don't get it.

Q.E.D.

You missed that one by a million miles or at least a thousand years. The Great White Throne Judgment is after the millennial kingdom which follows the tribulation.

Physician heal thyself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[JesusIsAll]

You missed that one by a million miles or at least a thousand years. The Great White Throne Judgment is after the millennial kingdom which follows the tribulation.

Physician heal thyself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Great White Throne is prior to the first seal of the tribulation being opened? Just incredible. There's really nothing anybody can say to such blindness.

 

[Anonimous]

Yes but the belief or unbelief is not in a timing of a rapture.
Your faith is rather you believe in Him or not.

If you are going to say believers will be left behind because they don't believe in a pre-trib timing of the rapture, then you might as well say believers will be left behind for not believing in following His command to be baptized.

Oh, you just had to go and use the "B" word... and now for part II

 

[JesusIsAll]

There's neither the concept a whole lot of people could really do with less time bickering, some of you all day, every day (is that bickering for Christ?), and more time actually learning the word of God.

 

[notuptome]

The Great White Throne is prior to the first seal of the tribulation being opened? Just incredible. There's really nothing anybody can say to such blindness.

Its your proposal not mine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger