All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[dcontroversal]

I do care when Christ comes to marry His bride. Jesus said it will be at an hour and day we will not expect. I believe Him and therefore will look for Him at any moment rather than expecting certain things to happen and then expect Him to come. It is important to me because I know folks who do not believe will not be gathered up.

1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 They were not in darkness that that day would overtake them as a thief and not to mention that JESUS told the disciples 1st century A.D. to LOOK up when THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS.......

You would do well to open your eyes...I used to believe pre-trib and then after 25 years of intensive study realized that it is a false doctrine as Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Revelation, Daniel, the parable of the wheat and tares all contradict the imminent return.......and contrary to the belief of many..in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and as a thief in the night are not indicative of the BODY Presence of Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.....but rather are indicative of the circumstances surrounding the coming of Jesus

PAUL clearly teaches that the MAN of SIN will be revealed first and the complete apostatization of humanity must take place first!

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, I believe there are two Rapture events that are similar but not identical.

The 1st Rapture is the marriage to Christ. We see this in the Parable of Matthew 25 with the virgins ENTERING into the wedding (marriage). The 1st Rapture is different from the 2nd Rapture in the fact that the dead in Christ will rise first from Abraham's Bosom. Then we (who are alive) will be caught up next to meet the Lord in the air and we will forever be with Him. We will not be Raptured up so as to go to battle like the saints in the 2nd Rapture. So the 2nd Rapture is a RETURN after the wedding according to the parallel Olivet Discourse passage in Luke. This 2nd Rapture will be to gather for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Which is not a feast in Heaven but it is the battle of Armageddon).

To learn more in detail of what I am talking about, please check out the links in Post #156.

brother Jason,

Which rapture is the Information in these verse bellow ? first of second.

The first rapture is for Christian, the second rapture is for Christian as well, Am I right? About post 156 would you like to give a link?

Is

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? – 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 3:16 teaches clearly...
For God so loved the world (cosmos) that he gave his only begotten Son
and WHOSOEVER (CONTINUOUSLY) BELIEVES in HIM should not perish,
but have (CONTINUES TO HAVE) (present tense) everlasting life....

Check it out.

And what about the 15 passages that scream at you ...
The BAC must endure in the faith to the end of his/her life to be saved

Yes you! ... you will be held responsible for ignoring and rejecting them!!!

wow. one of the poorest use of language rules I have ever seen.

for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever (literally "everyone who") believes (it is in the nomative present active case. meaning the person is not trying to become a believer, is not on the way to become a believer, but has made the point, his FAITH is real) in him shall never perish (present state he is in, in the aorist tense. will continue, He is in a state where he will NEVER DIE, ) but HAS eternal life. (in the present state, of being made alive in Christ, this life being called to last forever (eternal)

Face it dude, If your interpretation was real. No one is ever going to be promised to (never die) or be in a state of having (everlasting life) those promises would be lies. given by God, and make God a liar.

But if you want a God who lies. feel free.. Thats your choice, but don;t push your God who is a human god and a sinner on other people. the God of the universe, who keeps his promise will not like that at all!

 

[dcontroversal]

wow. one of the poorest use of language rules I have ever seen.

for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever (literally "everyone who") believes (it is in the nomative present active case. meaning the person is not trying to become a believer, is not on the way to become a believer, but has made the point, his FAITH is real) in him shall never perish (present state he is in, in the aorist tense. will continue, He is in a state where he will NEVER DIE, ) but HAS eternal life. (in the present state, of being made alive in Christ, this life being called to last forever (eternal)

Face it dude, If your interpretation was real. No one is ever going to be promised to (never die) or be in a state of having (everlasting life) those promises would be lies. given by God, and make God a liar.

But if you want a God who lies. feel free.. Thats your choice, but don;t push your God who is a human god and a sinner on other people. the God of the universe, who keeps his promise will not like that at all!

I totally agree with this view.....talk about butchering the language.....even such a butchering job of the English language for sure.....The Greek says it all.....present continuing result HAHHAH

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Problem is: people are not in agreement as to terminology, esp. the word "believer".

The world is quite full of people who call themselves "believers in Christ".
However, many (most?) of these are only believers intellectually,
i.e. they never have been born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

These poor souls have only been "converted" at some point in time in their thinking!
People can actually "believe" in Jesus because they were raised that way.

That's why I differentiate by using the term BAC.

that is the flaw fo the english language.

the greek is more precise. the people in john 3: 16 have passed completely from a state of unbelief, to a state of pure faith in God. not just mere belief, The word used denotes the person has a trust and assurance in the one they are believing in.

it is not mere belief.

just because the english language is flawed does not mean we should go from one extreme to the next, and say salvation is not assured, just because some believe and never do a thing for God, or fall away, It means we should figure out who has true pisteuon (faith, trust, assurance) and who has mere believe (knowledge of)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People must be blind...

WAS-->past tense
IS-->present tense
IS TO COME-->future tense

There is but 1 (ONE) Parousia (COMING) of JESUS....NOT 2........!

to be devils advocate, God does not come at the rapture, He resurrects us and brings us to him. His second coming, is his coming to meet the earth and those on it.

that is why it is not a "cut in stone" doctrine, and should not cause all of these fights and divisions. There are proofs which support every view, I personally believe we will not know until events happen.. and Jesus actually stands in jerusalem.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Pre Trib Rapture Doctrine will soon be proven false anyway. Once the Man of Sin hits the scene (which I believe he already has), then it will be clear since we will still be here.

so when did the this man make a treaty and make an abomination of the temple?

 

[Jason0047]

brother Jason,

Which rapture is the Information in these verse bellow ? first of second.

The first rapture is for Christian, the second rapture is for Christian as well, Am I right? About post 156 would you like to give a link?

Is

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? – 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

Here is my explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2 and the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Day of the Lord.

 

[AtonedFor]

The majority of Matthew 24 talks about the End times with the 2nd Rapture event.

Yes folks, you heard it here first.

28 verses of the beginning of sorrows, and persecution, and tribulation.
Then Jesus comes back, and it's ALL over in verse 31.

Yes folks, you're so blessed 'cause you heard it here first.

 

[dcontroversal]

to be devils advocate, God does not come at the rapture, He resurrects us and brings us to him. His second coming, is his coming to meet the earth and those on it.

that is why it is not a "cut in stone" doctrine, and should not cause all of these fights and divisions. There are proofs which support every view, I personally believe we will not know until events happen.. and Jesus actually stands in jerusalem.

Well that is fine, but the word coming (parousia) is tied to the resurrection/change and is so identified in 2nd Thessalonians 2
and a Grandsville Sharp is used....

We beseech you by the (body presence) Parousia/coming of Christ that is to say OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM that you be not shaken etc........FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME until...

1. MAN of sin be revealed
2. Apo-Hystamie

 

[Jason0047]

1st Thessalonians 4 and 5 They were not in darkness that that day would overtake them as a thief and not to mention that JESUS told the disciples 1st century A.D. to LOOK up when THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS.......

There is a transition made between the end of 1 Thessalonains 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5. I explain that here in the beginning of this post.

1 Thessalonians 4 and the Transition made in 1 Thessalonians 5.

You would do well to open your eyes...I used to believe pre-trib and then after 25 years of intensive study realized that it is a false doctrine

You used to believe the Pre-Trib Rapture with little to no evidence in Scripture backing up your belief. There is a difference.

I used to believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture just in the same way. So I was in the same boat as you at one time. Hence, why I was deceived for a few weeks to believe in the Pre-Wrath view. But after studying the Scriptures for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that the Pre-Trib Rapture was the correct view after all. I just never knew the Scriptural reasons why I believed in it. Now I do.

as Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Revelation, Daniel, the parable of the wheat and tares all contradict the imminent return.......and contrary to the belief of many..

No, these passages are talking about the RETURN after the wedding in Luke 12 (Which is the 2nd Rapture event). Luke 12 actually uses the word "return." Check it out. The Parable in the beginning of Matthew 25 is about ENTERING into the wedding (i.e. the 1st Rapture event because the virgins did not know the day or the hour and they were not given any visible signs for Christ's return).

in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and as a thief in the night are not indicative of the BODY Presence of Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.....but rather are indicative of the circumstances surrounding the coming of Jesus

No, my friend. As I said before, there is a transition between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5.

PAUL clearly teaches that the MAN of SIN will be revealed first and the complete apostatization of humanity must take place first!

Again, talking about the Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord and it is not talking about our gathering unto him. Paul was writing to the Thessalonians because they were in fear that they might have missed out on the Rapture and they were now in the Day of the Lord.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes folks, you heard it here first.

28 verses of the beginning of sorrows, and persecution, and tribulation.
Then Jesus comes back, and it's ALL over in verse 31.

Yes folks, you're so blessed 'cause you heard it here first.

The Bibe is not written in chronological order. Matthew 25 has a beginning parable that follows the end of Matthew 24. The parable of the virgins in Matthew 25 talk about the Pre-Trib Rapture beause it provides no visible signs when the call is made, unlike the gathering of the Elect before Christ's return in Matthew 24.

Remember, what did the disciples ask Jesus? Did they ask Jesus about the mystery revealed to Saul/Paul who was not a believer yet? No. The disciples asked specifically about the end times and the sign of his coming. The Pre-Trib Rapture is not an End Times Tribulation event. It was a mystery revealed to Paul. If it was a mytery revealed to Paul, then why does Jesus talk about it in detail?

 

[Jackson123]

Here is my explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2 and the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Day of the Lord.

Brother Jason, I copy your link bellow.

The church men of Thessalonica were deceived somehow into thinking the Day of the Lord had already occured. The Day of the Lord (i.e. KJV says Day of Christ) was not a good thing but a bad thing. For this is why they were so shaken in mind and troubled (verse 2) for Paul to write to them. In other words, this was not an every day ordinary teaching by Paul but it was a letter to correct them in thinking the wrong thing.

For they were thinking they might have missed out on the Rapture and were now in the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord (Day of Christ) is bad. For Amos 5:20 says the "Day of the Lord" is a day of darkness. Amose 5:18 says woe unto them that desire the "Day of the Lord." Paul assures them that the Rapture has not happened yet at the time of the writing of his letter to them because he says in verse 1 about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and their gathering together unto him (Which is the Rapture event) and then he says be not troubled in mind concerning our gathering unto him.... because.... if you did miss out on the Rapture or the gathering together unto him.... Then.... you would see the falling away of the church and the Anti-Christ appear in the Temple showing himself that he is God.

The passsage would read like this:


The Thessalonian are christian aren't they, They believe rapture is already taken place and they are left behind. It is totally wrong. Then Paul explain that rapture will happen after a man of sin reveal. Am I correct?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well that is fine, but the word coming (parousia) is tied to the resurrection/change and is so identified in 2nd Thessalonians 2
and a Grandsville Sharp is used....

We beseech you by the (body presence) Parousia/coming of Christ that is to say OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM that you be not shaken etc........FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME until...

1. MAN of sin be revealed
2. Apo-Hystamie

still 2 problems.

parousia only means the coming, or the arrival of a planned destination.

We are told we will meet jesus in the clouds, so in that coming, it is fulfilled, WHEN WE MEET him n the clouds.

the second coming (Parousia) is said to be completed when he steps foot on the mount of olives and splits it in two.

so we have 2 parousia's (as the greek word means)

as for the antichrist. when is he revealed.

some say when the 7 year covenant is made.

some say in the middle.

so here we have the possibility of a pre trib and mid trib coming in the air.

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a transition made between the end of 1 Thessalonains 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5. I explain that here in the beginning of this post.

1 Thessalonians 4 and the Transition made in 1 Thessalonians 5.



You used to believe the Pre-Trib Rapture with little to no evidence in Scripture backing up your belief. There is a difference.

I used to believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture just in the same way. So I was in the same boat as you at one time. Hence, why I was deceived for a few weeks to believe in the Pre-Wrath view. But after studying the Scriptures for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that the Pre-Trib Rapture was the correct view after all. I just never knew the Scriptural reasons why I believed in it. Now I do.



No, these passages are talking about the RETURN after the wedding in Luke 12 (Which is the 2nd Rapture event). Luke 12 actually uses the word "return." Check it out. The Parable in the beginning of Matthew 25 is about ENTERING into the wedding (i.e. the 1st Rapture event because the virgins did not know the day or the hour and they were not given any visible signs for Christ's return).



No, my friend. As I said before, there is a transition between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5.



Again, talking about the Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord and it is not talking about our gathering unto him. Paul was writing to the Thessalonians because they were in fear that they might have missed out on the Rapture and they were now in the Day of the Lord.

No there isn't (BUT) connects the two thoughts....conjunction junction what's your function...BUT connects the two thoughts in 1st Thessalonians and Paul and Peter tie the day of the LORD, CHRIST AND GOD together as ONE DAY....

Dude, there is no imminent return of Jesus.....

 

[dcontroversal]

still 2 problems.

parousia only means the coming, or the arrival of a planned destination.

We are told we will meet jesus in the clouds, so in that coming, it is fulfilled, WHEN WE MEET him n the clouds.

the second coming (Parousia) is said to be completed when he steps foot on the mount of olives and splits it in two.

so we have 2 parousia's (as the greek word means)

as for the antichrist. when is he revealed.

some say when the 7 year covenant is made.

some say in the middle.

so here we have the possibility of a pre trib and mid trib coming in the air.

Not when vied Post TRIB at the 7th trump.....Which covers the commencement of all three aspects of Jesus

Day of the Lord
Day of Christ
Day of God

And other than you and Jason...I know no one who teaches 2 comings of Jesus.....

WAS<--PAST tense
IS<--present TENSE
IS TO COME<--ONE COMING not two

Jesus comes, seizes control of all earthly kingdoms, rewards the saints and prophets and pours out his wrath while in the AIR and then steps down to the mount of Olives...ONE coming not two...The saints see him come, the lost religious see him come, every eye, kindred and person sees him COME!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not when vied Post TRIB at the 7th trump.....Which covers the commencement of all three aspects of Jesus

Day of the Lord
Day of Christ
Day of God

And other than you and Jason...I know no one who teaches 2 comings of Jesus.....

WAS<--PAST tense
IS<--present TENSE
IS TO COME<--ONE COMING not two

Jesus comes, seizes control of all earthly kingdoms, rewards the saints and prophets and pours out his wrath while in the AIR and then steps down to the mount of Olives...ONE coming not two...The saints see him come, the lost religious see him come, every eye, kindred and person sees him COME!

1st. I am not teaching anything, I am being devils advocate.

2. I just proved according to the greek word you yourself used. there are 2 comings, One in the air, and on on the ground.

either way, there is only one on the ground.

There is far to many things to look into. I have studied ALL points (it has been a few years, so I can not remember them all) but what I do remember is this.

ammillennialsim has the least amount of biblical truth, followed closely by post trib.


I would have to study again, to see what these are. just showing what I found after years of study, what do I believe? I am undecided.. and would not teach either way, only one I am totally against is preterism, or ammillenialsim.

 

[Sophia]

What a blessed day it will be when all of this is resolved at His Coming. Live in advent: with hope and expectation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What a blessed day it will be when all of this is resolved at His Coming. Live in advent: with hope and expectation

amen! then these stupid arguments will finally be resolved..lol

 

[dcontroversal]

1st. I am not teaching anything, I am being devils advocate.

2. I just proved according to the greek word you yourself used. there are 2 comings, One in the air, and on on the ground.

either way, there is only one on the ground.

There is far to many things to look into. I have studied ALL points (it has been a few years, so I can not remember them all) but what I do remember is this.

ammillennialsim has the least amount of biblical truth, followed closely by post trib.


I would have to study again, to see what these are. just showing what I found after years of study, what do I believe? I am undecided.. and would not teach either way, only one I am totally against is preterism, or ammillenialsim.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were teaching anything and I got you were playing advocate.....all I know is this....I was raised under imminent return theology, taught it and dogmatically defended it and then I started seeing scriptures that contradict it and it was a question that actually started my quest and after 25 years of studying in particular the end I changed my mind to post tribulation-pre wrath resurrection/change.....Everyone who teaches imminent return places it before the events of Revelation and here is my problem and question that sent me on my 25 year quest.

The saints murdered at the 5th seal for a witness and testimony are told to wait a while until their fellow brethren are killed in like manner.
The saints that are murdered by the beast for refusing to take the mark which are the brothers killed in like manner..

Two things...
1. They LIVE and reign with Christ which is indicative of being resurrected
2. There is but ONE resurrection of the righteous

The bible does not teach a split resurrection of the saved saints as there is but ONE as found in Revelation 20.

NO way it can happen before the saints that are killed for a witness, testimony of Jesus and refusal to take the mark.

7th trump resurrection/change fits this and jives.....

Same thing with the invisible imminent return...

1. Acts teaches that the disciples will SEE JESUS come in the CLOUDS with power and great glory
2. Jesus told the LOST religious Pharisees that they would see him come in the clouds with power and great glory
3. Revelation teaches that every kindred, every eye and they which pierced him will SEE HIM come with the clouds and great glory

Jesus said his coming would be like 2 things which are BOTH VISIBLE

1. Lightning shining from the East to the West
2. Like buzzards (eagles) gathered on a carcass

Both are visible

There is no invisible, imminent return of Jesus where the saved magically disappear and everyone wonders where we went.
It is visible and occurs after the saints loose their heads for failing to take the mark which JIVES with 2nd Thessalonians and the MAN of SIN being revealed and the APOSTATIZATION of humanity which I think is a final call for humanity to choose God or the beast......

These are but two of the things which I believe contradict imminent return....I know it does not matter, but I wrote a 212 book of scriptures in context that contradicts the imminent return......I even have a copy being circulated around Australia HAHA