Amillennialism

Red33 · Aug 29, 2011

zone said:

That's a dumb question and you know it, because you are being controversial with it. You are trying to establish a foundation with a presupposition which is a false premise. The doctrine of Christ and Him crucified is paramount as to what we believe, in being forgiven and cleansed from all sin, in being justified through the blood of Christ, in having God's righteousness imputed and the grace we receive all by faith without any works of righteousness on our part. That is the believer's premise and Christ has laid that foundation for every member of the church and body of Christ that has believed upon the Son for salvation, justification, redemption and reconciliation all by faith.

The Mormons have a false premise because of a false foundation that may lead to a better life of morality through self improvements, but never give them spirituality through the cross and blood of Christ. When you try to pull that with me you are being very foolish and you know it. I never said anything about the goodness of the human heart because there is nothing good about it. I did say that God looks upon the heart and (I will add) He is looking for His righteousness in that heart that He imputed through faith in His Son. That is the kind of heart that God is after and that is the foundational premise that we have as believers that we should be building and edifying in the lives of other believers through grace, even if they believe in the (5) fold ministry of the gifts. So, knock it off Zone.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

Strangelove said:

yep. thats what the catholics say. It is why they changed to a symbolic interpretation of scripture. It is the only way their doctrines (like amillenialism) works.

Strangelove · Aug 29, 2011

eg said:

Huh? where did I say God will force anyone to worship him?

The FALSE MESSIAH will be running that earthly kingdom..he will be doing plenty of forcing.

eg said:

Who is your King right now....Jesus or satan?

Who here in favor of Amil ever said that satan is bound from devouring people?

Satan is bound from one thing and one things only....from deceiving the nations and gathering them together to do battle against the Church. It's a specific binding. Your not allowed to extrapolate whatever definition you want of the binding, you have to take the bibles definition.

zone · Aug 29, 2011

Red33 said:

sure.
but what happens when you minister grace and present the truth to one who is so deluded by a false religion that they turn and declare curses from God on you?

you either joined this thing a little late or you think true Christians speak First Person Verbatim words as though coming from Christ. even the apostles never did that.

my goal is to shake them from THAT COUNTERFEIT foundation that they might find the real one.

sprinkling christian language into blasphemous pretensions, and a presumptuousness that would claim to speak words from The Almighty while having full access to the scriptures and sound doctrine is suggested here:

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

if i say i love someone who is doing this (or people who are in agreement with it) and do not point out

1) it's wrong
2) why it's wrong

who has the greater sin?

zone · Aug 29, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

EG:
the Scofield bible is toxic.
find out why.

WeStand · Aug 29, 2011

zone said:

Pretty superficial, and some of it mixed-up, this white thing you keep bringing up,

i don't know how to respond, its alnost sounds like the albino people are Gods Elect

But this word elect in English understanding of todays English, is extremely deceptive, as it could cause someone to get an ego

as there is also mention of the very elect. Translted back to the original language, these terms are written as, Gods set-aside ones and the very sei-aside ones.

Just curious Zone, you mentioned that you have checked out Arnold Murray before, i'm just wondering if you gave him an honest chance? Did you at least go through, just the Book of Genisis, following his instructions, in, be sure NOT to beleive him, and do your own homework and check it out for yourself?

The conclusion that one will draw from this is; The ONLY reason the differrent flesh races were created in the first place, was so that WE, at this time, can check for ourselves, in the ONLY object that never changed, The Scroll of Moses, and see for yourself, that nobody moved anywhere on this planet, without the fact, that God knew where they were going, before the land is brought up in Genisis. Its iron-clad.

And you would be required to follow the other instructions from Gods Word as well; which is to pray for understanding and to be sure and share what you learn; else why should God waste his time, if your not going to help his other children.

Kathy; i really wish that you would stop insinuating that i follow Arnold Murray, as He was nothing more than a vessel from God, to aquire the truth through, Not by.

He is not my only source of information, but has been extremely helpful to me, as well as millions of others around the world. Nobody is perfect and we ALL make mistakes. Though even i disagree with some of his personal points; where the Bible is concerned, He stays on track and proves the discrepencies that he finds in the English translation, what more can you ask for?

Thank-you for discussing this with me

Forever in Christ

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

zone said:

Hey Zone. I don't get my belief from scofield. so why would I want to read a man's biased opinion about why it is so toxic?

i don't understand your reasoning.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

Strangelove said:

Oh your talking about the false messiah who commits the abomination and rules for 3 1/2 years. he is destroyed By God at the end. before the kingdom.

like Zone, you should try to find out what it is I believe before making assumptions. I was not talking about him.

We are not talking about me are we? we are talking of future events prophesied in scripture which has nothing to do with me

Scripture says when satan is bound, he is shut up. not able to decieve anyone. How do you think devouring happens? By deception.

It does not matter what amillenialists say it means. i am talking about what God says.

Sorry. I can't buy this. this is taking away from scripture. It says he is shut up so he can't deceive anyone. Shut up means shut up. You don't shut someone up then let them open their mouths. to say anything!

I have seen satan take down many a church. If you think he can't you are deceived yourself!

zone · Aug 29, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

do you beliefs match the highlighted portions?

~

Since the mid-1800s, the system of theology known as dispensationalism has exerted great influence on how many Christians view the doctrines of ecclesiology and eschatology. In this article, we will survey the history of dispensationalism and look at the key beliefs associated with the system.

History of Dispensationalism
Theologians continue to argue over the origin of dispensationalism. Those who are dispensationalists argue that the basic beliefs of dispensationalism were held by the apostles and the first generation church. Those who are not dispensationalists often argue that dispensationalism is a new theology that began in the 19th century. What is clear, though, is that dispensationalism, as a system, began to take shape in the mid-1800s.

1. John Nelson Darby The beginning of systematized dispensationalism is usually linked with John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a Plymouth Brethren minister. While at Trinity College in Dublin (1819),

Darby came to believe in a future salvation and restoration of national Israel.

Based on his study of Isaiah 32, Darby concluded that Israel, in a future dispensation, would enjoy earthly blessings that were different from the heavenly blessings experienced by the church.

He thus saw a clear distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby also came to believe in an "any moment" rapture of the church that was followed by Daniel's Seventieth Week in which Israel would once again take center stage in God's plan.

After this period, Darby believed there would be a millennial kingdom in which God would fulfill His unconditional promises with Israel.

1 According to Paul Enns, "Darby advanced the scheme of dispensationalism by noting that each dispensation places man under some condition; man has some responsibility before God. Darby also noted that each dispensation culminates in failure." 2 Darby saw seven dispensations: (1) Paradisaical state to the Flood; (2) Noah; (3) Abraham; (4) Israel; (5) Gentiles; (6) The Spirit; and (7) The Millennium. By his own testimony, Darby says his dispensational theology was fully formed by 1833

Theological Studies - What is Dispensationalism?

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

zone said:

do you beliefs match the highlighted portions?

~

Since the mid-1800s, the system of theology known as dispensationalism has exerted great influence on how many Christians view the doctrines of ecclesiology and eschatology. In this article, we will survey the history of dispensationalism and look at the key beliefs associated with the system.

History of Dispensationalism
Theologians continue to argue over the origin of dispensationalism. Those who are dispensationalists argue that the basic beliefs of dispensationalism were held by the apostles and the first generation church. Those who are not dispensationalists often argue that dispensationalism is a new theology that began in the 19th century. What is clear, though, is that dispensationalism, as a system, began to take shape in the mid-1800s.

1. John Nelson Darby The beginning of systematized dispensationalism is usually linked with John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a Plymouth Brethren minister. While at Trinity College in Dublin (1819),

Darby came to believe in a future salvation and restoration of national Israel.

Based on his study of Isaiah 32, Darby concluded that Israel, in a future dispensation, would enjoy earthly blessings that were different from the heavenly blessings experienced by the church.

He thus saw a clear distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby also came to believe in an "any moment" rapture of the church that was followed by Daniel's Seventieth Week in which Israel would once again take center stage in God's plan.

After this period, Darby believed there would be a millennial kingdom in which God would fulfill His unconditional promises with Israel.

1 According to Paul Enns, "Darby advanced the scheme of dispensationalism by noting that each dispensation places man under some condition; man has some responsibility before God. Darby also noted that each dispensation culminates in failure." 2 Darby saw seven dispensations: (1) Paradisaical state to the Flood; (2) Noah; (3) Abraham; (4) Israel; (5) Gentiles; (6) The Spirit; and (7) The Millennium. By his own testimony, Darby says his dispensational theology was fully formed by 1833

Theological Studies - What is Dispensationalism?

What you see highlighted in Blue I do not agree at all, or completely agree with as written.

does this help you understand I do not get my belief from him??

I don't know what else to say or do to prove it to you!

zone · Aug 29, 2011

Eschatology Comparison

Amillennialism

1. Distinctive Features and Emphases:

a. The "a" millennial (literally meaning "no" millennium) position is the eschatological view of historic Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed Christianity. It would be my educated guess that about two-thirds of the Christian family espouse an amillennial eschatology. The amillennial position is as well the position of the vast majority of Reformed and Lutheran theologians. The position portrayed in these lectures is the Reformed understanding of amillennialism, which is better understood as "present" millennialism [or "realized" millennialism], since Reformed eschatology argues for a real, present, though "invisible" non-spatial millennium.

b. Amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham, in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age, which is the millennium, that is the entire period of time between the two advents of our Lord. The "thousand years" are therefore symbolic of the entire inter-advental age. Satan is bound by Christ's victory over him and the establishment of the kingdom of God via the preaching of the gospel, and Satan is no longer free to deceive the nations, through the presence of Christ is reigning in heaven during this period with the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. At the end of the millennial age, Christ returns in judgement of all men. The general resurrection occurs, final judgement takes place for all men and women, and a new Heaven and Earth are established.

C. In most forms of amillennialism, immediately before the return of Christ, Satan is unbound, there is a great apostasy, and a time of unprecedented satanically inspired evil. This last Satanic gasp and subsequent rebellious activity is destroyed by our Lord at his return.

http://www.fivesolas.com/esc_chrt.htm

zone · Aug 29, 2011

Eschatology Comparison

Dispensational Premillennialism

1. Distinctive Features and Emphases:

a. Dispensationalists argue for the necessity of the literal interpretation of all of the prophetic portions of Scripture. Charles Ryrie makes this point very clearly:

When the principles of literal interpretation both in regard to general and special hermeneutics are followed, the result the premillennial system of doctrine... If one interprets literally, he arrives at the premillennial system. This means that all promises made to David and Abraham under the Old Covenant are to be literally fulfilled in the future millennial age.

b. Dispensationalists insist that God has two redemptive plans, one for national Israel, and one for Gentiles during the "church age." This presupposition forms the basis for the dispensational hermeneutic. As John Walvoord states regarding the dispensational hermeneutic, "Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs."

c. There is a "rapture" of believers when Jesus Christ secretly returns to earth before the seven year tribulation period begins (the seventieth week of Daniel, cf. Daniel 9:24-27). Believers do not experience the persecution of the Anti-Christ who rises to prominence during this "tribulation period." The Biblical data dealing with the time of tribulation is referring to unbelieving Israel, not the church. Therefore, church age, or the "age of grace," is to be seen as that period of time in which God is dealing with Gentiles prior to the coming of the kingdom of God during the millennium.

d. The visible and physical second coming of Christ occurs after the great tribulation. Those who are converted to Christ during the tribulation, including Jews (the 144,000) who turn to Christ, go on into the millennium to re-populate the earth. Glorified believers rule with Christ during his future reign.

e. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts. The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire predicted in Daniel as seen through the emergence of the EEC [common market], the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the secret return of Christ for his church. Antichrist is awaiting his revelation once the believing church is removed.

f. The millennium is marked by a return to Old Testament temple worship and sacrifice to commemorate the sacrifice of Christ. At the end of the millennium, the "great white throne" judgement occurs, and Satan and all unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There is the creation of a new heaven and earth.

Eschatology Chart

leading proponents:

a. Dispensationalism was largely popularized through the Scofield Reference Bible, and is now represented, for example, by the notes in the Ryrie Study Bible. Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth served to keep the movement in the mainstream of Evangelicalism in the late 60's and early 70's. The vast majority of the early Charismatic movement was dispensational in its orientation even though most dispensationalists emphasized that charismata ceased with the completion of the New Testament. As the Charismatic movement has matured and become more consistent in its own theology, dispensationalism has largely been jettisoned. Because of this, and because of the resurgence of questions of ethics (the dispensationalist cannot efficiently use his OT to answer ethical questions) dispensationalism is apparently on the decline.
b. Leading dispensational theologians include John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, J. Dwight Pentecost, Norman Geisler and Charles Feinberg. Popular dispensational pastors and writers include; Charles Swindoll, Dave Hunt, Jack Van Impe and Charles Stan Chuck Smith and the Calvary Chapel movement represent the Charismatic side of dispensationalism.
c. Dallas Theological Seminary is the leading dispensational institution. Other dispensational institutions include: Talbot Theological Seminary, the Master's College and Grace Theological Seminary.

Strangelove · Aug 29, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

If you are talking about a Jesus that will rule on Earth from Jerusalem then you are talking about the false messiah. Even if you dont realise it.

eternally-gratefull said:

Just the simplest questions you cannot answer. Staggering.

eternally-gratefull said:

IT DOESNT SAY deceive anyone. It says deceive THE NATIONS.

Why are you changing Gods Word?

(Revelation 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

(Revelation 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Thats the binding of Satan. And heres what he is bound from doing:

(Revelation 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

(Revelation 20:8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(Revelation 20:9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Do you see the nations gathered together for battle against the saints?

Tell me, are there sinners running around in your millenium fable?

eternally-gratefull said:

NO! It doesnt say ANYONE. It says the NATIONS. YOU are taking away and then adding to scripture. A very dangerous practice especially for Revelation.

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree. And Rev doesnt say anything about satan being bound from deceiving churches. Only from deceiveing NATIONS and gringing them to battle against the saints.

zone · Aug 29, 2011

The Significance of Covenant Theology in Reformed Eschatology

...Because of the pervasiveness of dispensationalism, Reformed theologians and pastors may be tempted to give up trying to extract believers from the grip of premillennial dispensationalism. Evidences of the popularity of this view are plenty....

...Why should we as Reformed, covenantal believers try to tackle such a seemingly insurmountable system? In addition to its questionable use of Scripture, one of the major influences of popular dispensationalism has global implications in recent history, and should encourage us to persist “against all odds.” Even before a part of Palestine was carved out for the state of Israel in 1948, American evangelicals had always seen Israel as the prophetic key to endtime events. They strongly believe, with some fear included, that God is still fulfilling his promises to Abraham in Israel today when he said, “I will bless those who bless you [Abraham], and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed” (Gen.12:3). Why do Americans have this unwavering support for Israel? Timothy P. Weber traces the reason all the way back to popular dispensationalism,

Obviously, many evangelicals do not want to do anything to put themselves at cross purposes with God over Israel and the end times. The tendency is for many evangelicals to idealize Israel and believe that it can do no wrong. Some evangelicals have demonized the Palestinians: because they are the enemies of the modern State of Israel, they are also the enemies of God and the servants of Satan.1

Because dispensationalism is relatively new compared with covenantalism, it is still a developing doctrine. Within the contemporary dispensational camp, there are two views: the classic and the progressive.

The core doctrine of classic dispensationalism, as propagated by John Nelson Darby, C. I. Scofield, and Lewis Sperry Chafer, is God’s two distinct redemptive plans in past, present, and future – history one for Israel and one for the church.

Abiding · Aug 29, 2011

Anyone who says they just studied the bible...just the bible, and got their view of a 1000 year kingdom
and 2 covenants, just from personal study. Without being influenced by popular dispensationalists. Ha, pants on fire.
Ive heard it said tho.

Strangelove · Aug 29, 2011

Abiding said:

totally agree.

As someone who NEVER went to church....and read the bible totally on my own...I never saw any earthly kingdom there. Not even a hint.

Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

Abiding said:

On the other hand. Anyone who studies the bible and takes a literal aproach to prophesy. and comes up with amillenialsim. Well. they have followed the err of the roman church for which this belief came from.

It goes bot ways abiding. You want me to be respectful to you. yet you keep coming up with this disrespect for me. why is that??

zone · Aug 29, 2011

Abiding said:

ditto Abiding.
btw: Ivan wondered if we care for steak tonight.
you decide.

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

Strangelove said:

No. Because you said he forces people through an iron fist to believe in him/. Jesus does not do this.

How can I answer them? Your not asking the proper question. If you don't ask the proper question don't expect an answer. Prophesy was NOT directed at me. So why would you ask about me?

Are you not a part of the nations? Are not we ALL.

Even if you think that is it.

has not rome been decieved and attempted to kill the church? Has not islamic nations been decieved are trying to destroy the church?

It does not matter how you say it. SATAN IS NOT BOUND.

If I shut you up. You could not speak. unless I did not shut you up correctly. You think God is not capable of shutting satan up??

Thats your opinion. That is ALL it is, it has no basis of fact. just opinion. As I said before. if I have been bound for 1000 years. do you not think I would make war against the one who bound me? Him making war has nothing to do with what he was bound for.

funny. you ignore the 1000 yeqars. and you ignbore the SHUT UP part.

Satan is speaking today. If you think he is not YOU ARE DECIEVED

It says 1000, you are taking away from scripture.. next??

The churches are in those nations. many of those nations have attempted to destroy the church. But you can't see this. Go to one of those nations where satan has decieved themn. and openly admit your a christioan and see if you are not imprisoned and at least attempted to be executed.

The blind leads the blind

eternally-gratefull · Aug 29, 2011

zone said:

You ever going to respond to this zone??

Originally Posted by zone

do you beliefs match the highlighted portions?

~

Since the mid-1800s, the system of theology known as dispensationalism has exerted great influence on how many Christians view the doctrines of ecclesiology and eschatology. In this article, we will survey the history of dispensationalism and look at the key beliefs associated with the system.

History of Dispensationalism
Theologians continue to argue over the origin of dispensationalism. Those who are dispensationalists argue that the basic beliefs of dispensationalism were held by the apostles and the first generation church. Those who are not dispensationalists often argue that dispensationalism is a new theology that began in the 19th century. What is clear, though, is that dispensationalism, as a system, began to take shape in the mid-1800s.

1. John Nelson Darby The beginning of systematized dispensationalism is usually linked with John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a Plymouth Brethren minister. While at Trinity College in Dublin (1819),

Darby came to believe in a future salvation and restoration of national Israel.

Based on his study of Isaiah 32, Darby concluded that Israel, in a future dispensation, would enjoy earthly blessings that were different from the heavenly blessings experienced by the church.

He thus saw a clear distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby also came to believe in an "any moment" rapture of the church that was followed by Daniel's Seventieth Week in which Israel would once again take center stage in God's plan.

After this period, Darby believed there would be a millennial kingdom in which God would fulfill His unconditional promises with Israel.

1 According to Paul Enns, "Darby advanced the scheme of dispensationalism by noting that each dispensation places man under some condition; man has some responsibility before God. Darby also noted that each dispensation culminates in failure." 2 Darby saw seven dispensations: (1) Paradisaical state to the Flood; (2) Noah; (3) Abraham; (4) Israel; (5) Gentiles; (6) The Spirit; and (7) The Millennium. By his own testimony, Darby says his dispensational theology was fully formed by 1833

Theological Studies - What is Dispensationalism?

What you see highlighted in Blue I do not agree at all, or completely agree with as written.

does this help you understand I do not get my belief from him??

I don't know what else to say or do to prove it to you!

Amillennialism

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest