Amillennialism

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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totally agree.

As someone who NEVER went to church....and read the bible totally on my own...I never saw any earthly kingdom there. Not even a hint.

Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world.
Matthew 13
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

no 1,000 years there.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
On the other hand. Anyone who studies the bible and takes a literal aproach to prophesy. and comes up with amillenialsim. Well. they have followed the err of the roman church for which this belief came from.

It goes bot ways abiding. You want me to be respectful to you. yet you keep coming up with this disrespect for me. why is that??
I never ask anybody for respect, nor do i expect it. Im simply saying that i dont believe it can be done.
Besides you were indoctrinated before you even got serious about prophecy, so its too late for you to
know how much influence former teaching has on you. I see the same arguements the same accusations,
that you have that all have with the same view.
Im not saying its wrong. Im gona learn more about alot of stuff from other teachers. I believe their homework
is worthy to consider. But for someone to say they studied all on their own with no other influence and came up
with premillinial views i just dont buy. That part i dont respect, but general respectful behavior towards each other
im all into. :)
 
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
totally agree.

As someone who NEVER went to church....and read the bible totally on my own...I never saw any earthly kingdom there. Not even a hint.

Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world.
Oh the big bad bullies ganging up on EG. Maybe he will listen to us if we all look smart.

Nice try.

I chose to make Gods prophesies come true literally. Not make him no worse than a pagan false God who can not keep his promises.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Matthew 13
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

no 1,000 years there.
hey where did it go?:eek:
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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You ever going to respond to this zone??

What you see highlighted in Blue I do not agree at all, or completely agree with as written.

does this help you understand I do not get my belief from him??

I don't know what else to say or do to prove it to you!
relax EG.
this isn't personal.
you hold to many ideas that are distinctive to some form (however modified) of dispenationalism.
you don't have to prove anything to me.
i'm just trying to show various things, such as Daniel 9 being fulfilled.
seeing Daniel 9 fulfilled is one example of Covenant Theology....we see Jesus fulfilling the New Covenant promised so long before He walked the earth.

if we don't understand that part, i dare say other stuff about The Plan and the church won't make sense.
zonest.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Oh the big bad bullies ganging up on EG. Maybe he will listen to us if we all look smart.

Nice try.

I chose to make Gods prophesies come true literally. Not make him no worse than a pagan false God who can not keep his promises.
where does the right come from to force a literal interpretation into a verse
no im not ganging with anyone on you, im new as i told you having chucked
the premillinial view. So im just asking you where you get your rules?
 
Aug 12, 2010
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No. Because you said he forces people through an iron fist to believe in him/. Jesus does not do this.
Games now?

How can I answer them? Your not asking the proper question. If you don't ask the proper question don't expect an answer. Prophesy was NOT directed at me. So why would you ask about me?
The question is still there. Is Jesus your King NOW or is satan (who is god of this world) your king.

Are you not a part of the nations? Are not we ALL.

Even if you think that is it.

has not rome been decieved and attempted to kill the church? Has not islamic nations been decieved are trying to destroy the church?

It does not matter how you say it. SATAN IS NOT BOUND.

If I shut you up. You could not speak. unless I did not shut you up correctly. You think God is not capable of shutting satan up??
Still no nations being deceived into gathering for battle against the Saints. Come on you are MR LITERAL interpretation of prophecy right.

FOUR QUARTERS of the Earth it says. They number the sand of the sea. They are brought to battle against the remnant saints.

That doesnt mean sporadic regional inquisitions by the RCC or (alledged) terrorist attacks by AL CIA (duh). It means THE NATIONS in the WHOLE WORLD....ALL......decieved into fighting against the Saints.

Its got nothing to do with satan speaking. Its about him not decieving the nations and bringing them ALL to battle agaisnt the Church.

hats your opinion. That is ALL it is, it has no basis of fact. just opinion.
It's based on scripture as I've just explained using scripture. Its quite clear.

As I said before. if I have been bound for 1000 years. do you not think I would make war against the one who bound me? Him making war has nothing to do with what he was bound for.
How can you say that? Are you blind?

Look what happens when he's NOT BOUND ANYMORE:

(Revelation 20:8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(Revelation 20:9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


And you say him being bound is nothing to do with him making war?

IT SAYZ IT RIGHT THERE IN GODS WORD!!

DENIER!!!!!

It says 1000, you are taking away from scripture.. next??
Where did I say it didnt say a thousand? Why didnt you answer the point?

NO! It doesnt say ANYONE. It says the NATIONS. YOU are taking away and then adding to scripture. A very dangerous practice especially for Revelation.

The churches are in those nations. many of those nations have attempted to destroy the church. But you can't see this. Go to one of those nations where satan has decieved themn. and openly admit your a christioan and see if you are not imprisoned and at least attempted to be executed.

The blind leads the blind
Name one of the nations you are talking about.

We'll check if theres an open Christian congregation there
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Oh the big bad bullies ganging up on EG. Maybe he will listen to us if we all look smart.

Nice try.

I chose to make Gods prophesies come true literally. Not make him no worse than a pagan false God who can not keep his promises.
what?
man, speaking only for myself, one can't win for trying.

i AFFIRM

Reformed
Covenant
Amillennial
Cessationist

doctrines.

am i not going to try to EXPLAIN WHAT THEY ARE?

big bad bullys? come on EG.
the Catholics take their fair share of blows to their dogma...what up EG?
 
Aug 12, 2010
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Oh the big bad bullies ganging up on EG. Maybe he will listen to us if we all look smart.

Nice try.

I chose to make Gods prophesies come true literally. Not make him no worse than a pagan false God who can not keep his promises.
Is God literal or is he symbolic?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
ditto Abiding.
btw: Ivan wondered if we care for steak tonight.
you decide.


Yes sir Ivan i can always tell by that look, you have a tritip set aside for me...you.....:cool:
remember the blue cushioned chair for zone OK?:D
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
relax EG.
this isn't personal.

Yes it is personal zone.

You have called me a jew lover. you state I believe God wants to restore sacrificial rites of the temple. That I get my belief system from scofield and darby, which I have highly refuted. I reject Jesus as king. etc etc . I could go on and on.

It might not seem personal to you. BUT IT IS VERY PERSONAL TO ME. No one likes to be told he believes in things he does not. when it has been proven he does not.

You all do not even care to find out what I believe. You just ASSUME you know what it is. because you ASSUME I follow men and doctrines which I have already proven I do not follow.



you hold to many ideas that are distinctive to some form (however modified) of dispenationalism.
you don't have to prove anything to me.
i'm just trying to show various things, such as Daniel 9 being fulfilled.

You have not shown that Daniel 9 is fulfilled. You have only shown it is your belief. Which I will give you. You are free to believe what you want. But you have not proven anything.


seeing Daniel 9 fulfilled is one example of Covenant Theology....we see Jesus fulfilling the New Covenant promised so long before He walked the earth.
Yet who made the covenant AFTER the temple was destroyed? Who defiled the temple. AFTER THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED?

You have to twist scripture and take it as a symbol to have daniel 9 fulfilled. I CAN NOT DO THAT!

Daniel was given an answer to his SPECIFIC PRAYER concerning HIS PEOPLE. Not the church. Not the word. It has nothing to do with gentile, or the church or anyone else. Daniel was NOT PRAYING for the world. He was PRAYING FOR HIS FLESH BROTHERS AND SISTERS. And that is what GABRIEL GAVE HIM THE ANSWER TO. Thus daniel 9 can NOT BE FULFILLED until DANIELS PRAYER CONCERNING HIS FLESH BROTHERS AND SISTERS have repented and made an END OF SIN.



if we don't understand that part, i dare say other stuff about The Plan and the church won't make sense.
zonest.
lol Zone. This last comment is just amazing. I understand everything about the church and redemption and justification. That has nothing whatsoever to do with Daniel 9.

Tell me. Why was daniel even praying that prayer? What was going on that caused him to make intercession for his people??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I never ask anybody for respect, nor do i expect it. Im simply saying that i dont believe it can be done.
Besides you were indoctrinated before you even got serious about prophecy, so its too late for you to
know how much influence former teaching has on you.
See this is what I mean, What kind of bull is this? You don't know my background or what I have studied..or even where I come from. You assume.

Your just like a catholic who has been indoctrinated that this is what all protestants believe. so you assume it is true. and even when you are shown it is not. You do not buy it.

it is comments like this that make me lose respect for you abiding!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Yes it is personal zone.
You have called me a jew lover.
UH...WHAT?
i hope you are a jew-lover.
what are you talking about EG?

if i called you that (which i didn't): isn't that a GOOD THING?

you state I believe God wants to restore sacrificial rites of the temple. That I get my belief system from scofield and darby, which I have highly refuted. I reject Jesus as king. etc etc . I could go on and on. .
no, i said you have a mixture of doctrines, many of which are from Scofield.
you say you haven't relied on the notes, i believe you.

but that entire eschatology (and soteriology for jews) is from those guys.

i never said you reject Jesus as King.

i said you deny He is King NOW.
and that His Kingdom began with the fullfilment of Daniel 9.

as for sacrificial rites in the temple: you tell me what's going on in the millennium then.
can't really get a clear answer on this.


It might not seem personal to you. BUT IT IS VERY PERSONAL TO ME. No one likes to be told he believes in things he does not. when it has been proven he does not.??
i'm "told" that every single day here.

i'm told that because i know the Apostolic era gifts ceased as per paul's letter, and with the canon - that i SAY GOD IS DEAD. cool huh?

i'm told that because i see God has been building His church since Pentecost (both jew and gentile) that i hold to REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. stupid, huh?

i'm told that since i believe what the bible says about Mystery Babylon the Great being Jerusalem, and that when i point out the religion in Israel today is BABYLONIAN TALMUDISM and is antichrist and blasphemous i AM ANTISEMITIC. standard.

because i cry STOP KILLING ARABS (including christian arabs) in the Name of Moses/Jesus!, i am a jew-hater who secretly rubs my hands with glee hoping Iran will wipe israel off the map....standard fare for any who question world events.

because i say LOOK! LOOK AT THESE NOAHIDE LAWS that are growing, i'm told they are Biblical and we have misunderstood Paul this whole time: we ARE to listen to the judaizers. or that its folly to even care. don;t bring it up. antisemitic.

i'm told that because i see Rev 20 as a vision of The Reigning Christ in Heaven, and that it is an InterAdvental period i am ignorant, teaching doctrines of devils, satan, a dog, what else?

~

you believe in a distinction between israel and the church that DOES NOT EXIST.
if you take that statement personally i don't know what to say.

You all do not even care to find out what I believe. You just ASSUME you know what it is. because you ASSUME I follow men and doctrines which I have already proven I do not follow.
i know what you believe!
i read all your posts.

and i have studied dispensational (even your variety) for years.

i know you don't see Daniel 9 fulfilled. i know you believe the Kingdom is Postponed.
i know you believe God has an outstanding Land Promise to the children of israel.

i don't know EVERYTHING you believe since we haven't talked long enough.

i know you know the Gospel.
but your eschatology is dispensationally slanted/tainted.

if you get mad about me saying that, then its you taking personally something that doesn't have anything to do with us personally: we need to understand what Bible says, and i thought we were working to do that.

DANIEL 9 IS FULFILLED.

You have not shown that Daniel 9 is fulfilled. You have only shown it is your belief. Which I will give you. You are free to believe what you want. But you have not proven anything.
yes i have shown it.
you will not accept it.

anyone who is reading this:

PLEASE CLICK QUICK REPLY -WAS Daniel 9 fulfilled by Christ AT THE FIRST ADVENT, yes or no

Yet who made the covenant AFTER the temple was destroyed? Who defiled the temple. AFTER THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED?
the passage DOES NOT SAY ANYONE MADE A COVENANT AFTER THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED.

text is written in paragraphs.

just because section C follows section B does not mean C follows B in the real-time sequence of events.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And is a literary device.
it is starting a NEW THOUGHT, it doesn't mean AND THEN, as in next in sequence.

the above is about JESUS!

the consummation is just like the first night in the marital bed - the couple could have been married already for any length of time, but that marriage was NOT CONSUMMATED.

You have to twist scripture and take it as a symbol to have daniel 9 fulfilled. I CAN NOT DO THAT!
EG - if Daniel 9 isn't fulfilled YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN IF YOU DIE TOMORROW!

Daniel was given an answer to his SPECIFIC PRAYER concerning HIS PEOPLE. Not the church. Not the word.
WHY WOULD THE WORD CHURCH COME UP?
THE COVENANT ( ekklesia) PEOPLE RECEIVED THE PROMISE FROM THE COVENANTS THAT PRECEEDED, NAMELY ABRAHAM (actuall right from the Garden): Jesus Christ the Redeemer, the Promised SEED (singular).

God fulfilled everything He promised, in Christ....FOR THE JEWS! and then the gentiles.

and they dwelt in The Land at peace (under Joshua 25, David and Solomon).
if they accept Christ, THEY HAVE BEEN UNITED AS ONE UNDER THE ONLY KING THEY'LL EVER HAVE.

Daniel didn't live to see the fulfillment, BUT WE READ OF IT IN THE 4 GOSPELS.

if you are Christ's you are robed in everlasting Righteousness - HIS!
if you are Christ's He mas made a full end of sins - BY FAITH
if you are Christ's you have entered eternal peace and rest.

the CHURCH is believing remnant israel FIRST - gentiles grafted in. THE CHURCH - ONE PEOPLE (jew and gentile....jew first....then gentile: DONE)

Daniel was told about THAT GREAT PROMISE THE HEBREWS HAD BEEN PUTTING THEIR FAITH IN SINCE ABRAM.

the return from babylon to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple WAS FOR ONE PURPOSE - FOR CHRIST TO COME AND DO WHAT HE DID.

FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS AND CLOSE UP THE OLD COVENANT (which included the prouncement of the Covenant Curses on unbelieving israel) AND CONFIRM AND ESTABLISH THE NEW.

His rejection by some was not a surprise to God, no need for A PLAN B GENTILE CHURCH in a parenthetical "Church Age".

Paul made it clear the CHURCH of both jew and gentile was planned from THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. not a PLAN B...not a surprise.

It has nothing to do with gentile, or the church or anyone else. Daniel was NOT PRAYING for the world. He was PRAYING FOR HIS FLESH BROTHERS AND SISTERS. And that is what GABRIEL GAVE HIM THE ANSWER TO. Thus daniel 9 can NOT BE FULFILLED until DANIELS PRAYER CONCERNING HIS FLESH BROTHERS AND SISTERS have repented and made an END OF SIN..
MANY DID RECEIVE HIM!
and repented! they were the disciples and apostles - jews!

but it is not their sudden ability to stop or pay for their own sin that makes and end of sin!

IT WAS THE LAMB OF GOD ABRAHAM WAS SHOWN, THE RAM IN THE THICKET.
He took away the sins of all who believe. HE WAS THE PROMISE!

if some don't believie, and so their sin remains.....ARE YOU REVERSING OR NULLIFYING HIS FINISHED WORK?

on what ground?

EG: one the fatal errors the jews made was to believe that they had access to merit in and of themselves because of the Patriarchs. they held to misguided belief in a national favour and forgiveness UNTO SALVATION, and most never did understand John the Baptist calling them OUTSIDE THE CAMP, away from the temple system, to repent and prepare for the King, the Lamb, the NEW COVENANT.

lol Zone. This last comment is just amazing. I understand everything about the church and redemption and justification. That has nothing whatsoever to do with Daniel 9.

Tell me. Why was daniel even praying that prayer? What was going on that caused him to make intercession for his people??
if you are propping up some non-existent wall of partition between jews and gentiles that Jesus tore down, how can we communicate?
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Dispensationalism

A Return to Biblical Theology
or
Pseudo Christian Cult

"What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation... If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation."

By John H. Gerstner Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism

What is Dispensationalism?

Dispensationalism is a form of premillennialism originating among the Plymouth Brethren in the early 1830's. The father of dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby, educated as a lawyer and ordained Anglican priest, was one of the chief founders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, which arose in reaction against the perceived empty formalism of the Church of England. To the Brethren the true "invisible" church was to come out of the apostate "visible" Church, rejecting such forms as priesthood and sacraments.

Dispensational theology centers upon the concept of God's dealings with mankind being divided into (usually) seven distinct economies or "dispensations", in which man is tested as to his obedience to the will of God as revealed under each dispensation.

Dispensationalists see God as pursuing two distinct purposes throughout history, one related to an earthly goal and an earthly people (the Jews), the other to heavenly goals and a heavenly people (the church).Dispensationalists believe that in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the "mystery form" of the kingdom - the church - was established.

The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old Testament and constitutes a "parenthesis" in God's plan for Israel. In the future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will continue throughout all eternity. The "parenthesis", or church age, will end at the rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT saints) to heaven to celebrate the "marriage feast of the Lamb" with Christ for a period of seven years.God's program for the Jews then resumes with the tribulation, Antichrist, bowls of wrath, 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Armageddon.

Then, the Second (third, if you count the preTrib rapture) Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire nation of Israel, the resurrection of the Tribulation and Old Testament saints, and the "sheep and goats" judgment. The "goats" will be cast into hell, the "sheep" and the believing Jews will enter the millennium in natural human bodies, marrying, reproducing, and dying. The "mystery church" and the resurrected Tribulation and Old Testament saints will live in the heavenly Jerusalem suspended above the earthly city. This millennium will be a time of great peace and prosperity, with Christ ruling on David's throne. After 1,000 yrs. Satan will be released from the chain with which he had been bound at the beginning of the millennium and many of the children born to the "sheep" and the Israelites will follow him in revolt against Christ.

The King will again destroy His enemies, followed by another resurrection of the righteous, another resurrection of the unrighteous, a final judgment, and at last the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Although premillennial thought has been recorded in the early church, dispensational theology and its pursuant eschatology are new, as even the father of the system admitted -"I think we ought to have something more of direct testimony as to the lord's coming, and its bearing also on the state of the church: ordinarily, it would not be well to have it so clear, as it frightens people. We must pursue it steadily; it works like leaven, and its fruit is by no means seen yet; I do not mean leaven as ill, but the thoughts are new, and people's minds work on them, and all the old habits are against their feelings - all the gain of situation, and every worldly motive; we must not be surprised at its effect being slow on the mass, the ordinary instruments of acting upon others having been trained in most opposite habits." - LETTERS OF J.N.D., vol.1 pg.25-26

The new doctrine was widely accepted in America, due to popular prophetic meetings such as the Niagara Bible Conferences. C.I. Scofield promulgated dispensational thought in his Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensational Bible institutes by the hundreds have sprung up across the continent - notably Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary.

Media evangelists such as Jerry Fallwell, Dave Hunt, Howard Conder, Charles Capps, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, and Hal Lindsey popularize dispensational eschatology today. Most likely you have heard these doctrines taught over Christian radio programs, and yes, from your own church's pulpit, though probably no one defined the theological system as dispensationalism nor the origination as Darby circa 1832.Dispensationalists view the teaching as a return to Biblical theology, after nearly 1,800 years of darkness.

But, since the day Darby began to preach the doctrine, Godly men have opposed.Many books have been published exposing the flaws in the intricate system. Most hack away at the branches, arguing peripheral issues. We intend to lay the axe to the root of the tree."My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby's doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby." - George Müeller, a contemporary and one time supporter of Darby quoted by Robert Cameron in his book SCRIPTURAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LORD'S RETURN, pp.146-7

Dispensationalism Refuted: THE HERESY OF DISPENSATIONALISM
..................
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Christian Zionism:
Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

A History of Dispensational Approaches
By Rev. Steven Sizer

12/20/2000 "ICH" Dispensationalism is one of the most influential theological systems within the universal church today. Largely unrecognised and subliminal, it has increasingly shaped the presuppositions of fundamentalist, evangelical, Pentecostal and charismatic thinking concerning Israel and Palestine over the past one hundred and fifty years.

John Nelson Darby is regarded as the father of dispensationalism and its prodigy, Christian Zionism. It was Cyrus. I. Scofield and D. L. Moody, however, who brought Darby’s sectarian theology into mainstream evangelical circles. R. C. Sproul concedes that dispensationalism is now ‘...a theological system that in all probability is the majority report among current American evangelicals.’[[1]]

Most of the early popular American radio preachers such as Donald Grey Barnhouse, Charles E. Fuller, and M. R. DeHaan were dispensationalists. Today, virtually all the 'televangelists' such as Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, Paul Crouch, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Billy Graham are also dispensationalists.

Other leading dispensationalist writers include Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, Eric Sauer, Charles Dyer, Tim LaHaye, Grant Jeffrey and Hal Lindsey. Notable political proponents include Jimmie Carter and Ronald Reagan. Probably the most significant Christian organisations to espouse dispensationalism have been the Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary and the International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem.

2. Dispensationalism Defined
The basic text upon which dispensationalism is based is the Authorised translation of 2 Timothy 2:15, where the Apostle Paul calls upon Timothy to ‘... rightly divide the word of truth.’ Scofield took this verse as the title for his first book which is a defence of this way of ‘dividing’ Scripture into discrete dispensations.[[2]] In its classical form, Charles Ryrie insists the sine qua non of Dispensationalism to be:

1. A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct...
2. This distinction between Israel and the church is born out of a system of hermeneutics that is usually called literal interpretation...
3. A third aspect... concerns the underlying purpose of God in the world... namely, the glory of God... To the normative dispensationalist, the soteriological, or saving, program of God is not the only program but one of the means God is using in the total program of glorifying Himself.[[3]]

2.1 The Seven Dispensations
Following Darby and Scofield, dispensationalists claim to find in Scripture evidence of seven distinct dispensations during which humanity has been tested in respect of specific revelation as to the will of God. In each dispensation, including the present sixth dispensation of the Church, humanity has failed the test. These dispensations began with creation and will culminate in an exclusive Jewish kingdom on earth. Charles Ryrie offers the clearest outline of dispensationalism.[[4]].......

Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
 
Aug 12, 2010
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anyone who is reading this:

PLEASE CLICK QUICK REPLY -WAS Daniel 9 fulfilled by Christ AT THE FIRST ADVENT, yes or no

YES!!!!

Yes Yes and YES!
 
Aug 12, 2010
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UH...WHAT?
i hope you are a jew-lover.
what are you talking about EG?

if i called you that (which i didn't): isn't that a GOOD THING?



no, i said you have a mixture of doctrines, many of which are from Scofield.
you say you haven't relied on the notes, i believe you.

but that entire eschatology (and soteriology for jews) is from those guys.

i never said you reject Jesus as King.

i said you deny He is King NOW.
and that His Kingdom began with the fullfilment of Daniel 9.

as for sacrificial rites in the temple: you tell me what's going on in the millennium then.
can't really get a clear answer on this.




i'm "told" that every single day here.

i'm told that because i know the Apostolic era gifts ceased as per paul's letter, and with the canon - that i SAY GOD IS DEAD. cool huh?

i'm told that because i see God has been building His church since Pentecost (both jew and gentile) that i hold to REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. stupid, huh?

i'm told that since i believe what the bible says about Mystery Babylon the Great being Jerusalem, and that when i point out the religion in Israel today is BABYLONIAN TALMUDISM and is antichrist and blasphemous i AM ANTISEMITIC. standard.

because i cry STOP KILLING ARABS (including christian arabs) in the Name of Moses/Jesus!, i am a jew-hater who secretly rubs my hands with glee hoping Iran will wipe israel off the map....standard fare for any who question world events.

because i say LOOK! LOOK AT THESE NOAHIDE LAWS that are growing, i'm told they are Biblical and we have misunderstood Paul this whole time: we ARE to listen to the judaizers. or that its folly to even care. don;t bring it up. antisemitic.

i'm told that because i see Rev 20 as a vision of The Reigning Christ in Heaven, and that it is an InterAdvental period i am ignorant, teaching doctrines of devils, satan, a dog, what else?

~

you believe in a distinction between israel and the church that DOES NOT EXIST.
if you take that statement personally i don't know what to say.



i know what you believe!
i read all your posts.

and i have studied dispensational (even your variety) for years.

i know you don't see Daniel 9 fulfilled. i know you believe the Kingdom is Postponed.
i know you believe God has an outstanding Land Promise to the children of israel.

i don't know EVERYTHING you believe since we haven't talked long enough.

i know you know the Gospel.
but your eschatology is dispensationally slanted/tainted.

if you get mad about me saying that, then its you taking personally something that doesn't have anything to do with us personally: we need to understand what Bible says, and i thought we were working to do that.

DANIEL 9 IS FULFILLED.



yes i have shown it.
you will not accept it.

anyone who is reading this:

PLEASE CLICK QUICK REPLY -WAS Daniel 9 fulfilled by Christ AT THE FIRST ADVENT, yes or no



the passage DOES NOT SAY ANYONE MADE A COVENANT AFTER THE TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED.

text is written in paragraphs.

just because section C follows section B does not mean C follows B in the real-time sequence of events.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And is a literary device.
it is starting a NEW THOUGHT, it doesn't mean AND THEN, as in next in sequence.

the above is about JESUS!

the consummation is just like the first night in the marital bed - the couple could have been married already for any length of time, but that marriage was NOT CONSUMMATED.



EG - if Daniel 9 isn't fulfilled YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN IF YOU DIE TOMORROW!



WHY WOULD THE WORD CHURCH COME UP?
THE COVENANT ( ekklesia) PEOPLE RECEIVED THE PROMISE FROM THE COVENANTS THAT PRECEEDED, NAMELY ABRAHAM (actuall right from the Garden): Jesus Christ the Redeemer, the Promised SEED (singular).

God fulfilled everything He promised, in Christ....FOR THE JEWS! and then the gentiles.

and they dwelt in The Land at peace (under Joshua 25, David and Solomon).
if they accept Christ, THEY HAVE BEEN UNITED AS ONE UNDER THE ONLY KING THEY'LL EVER HAVE.

Daniel didn't live to see the fulfillment, BUT WE READ OF IT IN THE 4 GOSPELS.

if you are Christ's you are robed in everlasting Righteousness - HIS!
if you are Christ's He mas made a full end of sins - BY FAITH
if you are Christ's you have entered eternal peace and rest.

the CHURCH is believing remnant israel FIRST - gentiles grafted in. THE CHURCH - ONE PEOPLE (jew and gentile....jew first....then gentile: DONE)

Daniel was told about THAT GREAT PROMISE THE HEBREWS HAD BEEN PUTTING THEIR FAITH IN SINCE ABRAM.

the return from babylon to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple WAS FOR ONE PURPOSE - FOR CHRIST TO COME AND DO WHAT HE DID.

FULFILL THE REQUIREMENTS AND CLOSE UP THE OLD COVENANT (which included the prouncement of the Covenant Curses on unbelieving israel) AND CONFIRM AND ESTABLISH THE NEW.

His rejection by some was not a surprise to God, no need for A PLAN B GENTILE CHURCH in a parenthetical "Church Age".

Paul made it clear the CHURCH of both jew and gentile was planned from THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. not a PLAN B...not a surprise.



MANY DID RECEIVE HIM!
and repented! they were the disciples and apostles - jews!

but it is not their sudden ability to stop or pay for their own sin that makes and end of sin!

IT WAS THE LAMB OF GOD ABRAHAM WAS SHOWN, THE RAM IN THE THICKET.
He took away the sins of all who believe. HE WAS THE PROMISE!

if some don't believie, and so their sin remains.....ARE YOU REVERSING OR NULLIFYING HIS FINISHED WORK?

on what ground?

EG: one the fatal errors the jews made was to believe that they had access to merit in and of themselves because of the Patriarchs. they held to misguided belief in a national favour and forgiveness UNTO SALVATION, and most never did understand John the Baptist calling them OUTSIDE THE CAMP, away from the temple system, to repent and prepare for the King, the Lamb, the NEW COVENANT.



if you are propping up some non-existent wall of partition between jews and gentiles that Jesus tore down, how can we communicate?
OUTSTANDING POST SISTER.

Your smokin' babe.