Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[Guojing]

Actually I am doing neither. I do not address free will v. predestination in this context at all. I do not think Peter was telling the nation of Israel that it still had a chance to repent and accept their savior, rather he was telling individual Jews that they had time to repent and accept as suggested by the below.

23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

I think the Lord's words in Mat 10 are particularly relevant to our discussion. Christ literally, and spiritually ripped Israel in two. Those who did not hear from "the Prophet" (Jesus) were utterly destroyed from among the people (Acts 3) which happened between 66-70 AD. This is what Jesus taught earlier in Mat 10:

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Christ Brings Division

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

All of the wicked Jewish priests who denied Christ as their King and their children, were put to death.

Israel was given the choice during early acts to accept Jesus as their messiah.

They rejected him for the final time by stoning Stephen.

This account was written in scripture. Even though Jesus knew he would be rejected, it does not mean the nation had no free will to make that choice, just like Adam had the choice which tree to eat from even though Jesus already knew he would be slain since the world began

 

[PlainWord]

Israel was given the choice during early acts to accept Jesus as their messiah.

They rejected him for the final time by stoning Stephen.

This account was written in scripture. Even though Jesus knew he would be rejected, it does not mean the nation had no free will to make that choice, just like Adam had the choice which tree to eat from even though Jesus already knew he would be slain since the world began

We have no direct passage that states the stoning of Stephen was the final straw. Oh, it's a straw, for sure. But the wicked Jews were allowed to continue and to kill more disciples and followers of Jesus. If there was a final straw, Eusebius describes it below. This is a fascinating story as relates to Jesus' own half-brother, James:

9. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one’s coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.

10. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, ‘We entreat thee, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in thee. For we bear thee witness, as do all the people, that thou art just, and dost not respect persons.

11. Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in thee. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position thou mayest be clearly seen, and that thy words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, are come together on account of the Passover.’

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.’

13. And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.’

14. And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David,’ these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, ‘We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.’

15. And they cried out, saying, ‘Oh! oh! the just man is also in error.’ And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, ‘Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings.’

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, ‘Cease, what do ye? The just one prayeth for you.’

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.”

I believe the die was cast on the Cross but God allowed a 36-40 year time frame before final judgment on Israel came to pass.

 

[Guojing]

We have no direct passage that states the stoning of Stephen was the final straw. Oh, it's a straw, for sure. But the wicked Jews were allowed to continue and to kill more disciples and followers of Jesus. If there was a final straw, Eusebius describes it below. This is a fascinating story as relates to Jesus' own half-brother, James:

9. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one’s coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.

10. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, ‘We entreat thee, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in thee. For we bear thee witness, as do all the people, that thou art just, and dost not respect persons.

11. Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in thee. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position thou mayest be clearly seen, and that thy words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, are come together on account of the Passover.’

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.’

13. And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.’

14. And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David,’ these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, ‘We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.’

15. And they cried out, saying, ‘Oh! oh! the just man is also in error.’ And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, ‘Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings.’

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, ‘Cease, what do ye? The just one prayeth for you.’

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.”

I believe the die was cast on the Cross but God allowed a 36-40 year time frame before final judgment on Israel came to pass.

After Stephen was stoned, Paul was saved and was specifically given the gospel of grace to reach out to the Gentiles.

Until then Jesus commanded the 12 not to preach to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5), that was why Stephen death marked the postponement of the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[PlainWord]

Hi thanks for the reply.

End of the age represents the whole new testament era as the last days ending on the last day under the sun .The phrase last day is used 6 times to indicate believers receiving their new promised bodies and the day death by the letter of the law is made to no effect cast into the fiery. Never to rise and corrupt a another whole creation. Both occurring simotaniiously. End of age also referred as "this generation" the generation of the last days

The temple which was built in opposition to the will of God by the opposing will of men was used as a parable for the time present until the reformation .When the reformation came the image built with human hand as a pagan foundation called a abomination of desolation. was made useless when the veil was rent. Created corruptible things seen standing in the holy unseen eternal place of God's glory .

Hi Friend,

I respectfully disagree. Let's take the actually literal translation of the Mat 24 passage. Before we do, please note that the "end of the age (or world)" does not appear in the other two versions. Only the temple destruction is in focus. In the below passage, mis-translations have caused so much confusion. So, please see the correct translation from the YLT:

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Two main points here that pretty much all other translations get wrong.

1) It was to be the PRESENCE OF CHRIST that was to return, not bodily Christ visible and obvious.
2) It was to be the END OF THE AGE, not the world.

Let's take point 2 first: I've repeatedly provided Josephus's usage of the same meaning of point 2 and here it is again. Remember, its how they wrote, spoke and understood, not us. If you took a first century English speaking person and brought them into our colloquial rich modern lingo, they would struggle to understand much of what we are saying. So, here's Josephus:

"But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Ab."

Thus we know that the end of their age occurred on the 10th of Ab on our 70 AD calendar. One age is replaced by another. We are in a different age today.

Now let's take point 1. If the return of Christ's presence was to be the massive world-wide visible event why did the disciples ask for the sign of it? Note, in Christ's answer He makes several comments. First He provides the beginnings of sorrows and tells what would happen to the disciples, which all happened. Then He speaks of the great tribulation that the city of Jerusalem would endure. He describes His return as a flash of lightening.

He then addresses the specific sign, "the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven." This sign was recorded by Josephus.

 

[PlainWord]

After Stephen was stoned, Paul was saved and was specifically given the gospel of grace to reach out to the Gentiles.

Until then Jesus commanded the 12 not to preach to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5), that was why Stephen death marked the postponement of the gospel of the kingdom.

The testifying to the Jews did not end at the stoning of Stephen. If anything, the stoning of Stephen marked the beginning of testifying to the Gentiles. In Mat 21:43 Jesus foreshadows that the Kingdom would be taken from Apostate Israel and given to ALL BELIEVERS, some Jew, some Gentile. Paul reinforces this concept in Romans 11 where he says Israel's rejection is not total. Paul goes on to say, "at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." The Book of Hebrews was written specifically to Hebrew people. Peter writes to the Jews of the diaspora. As we've been discussing Peter in Acts 3 states that all those not hearing the words of the Prophet (Jesus), "shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ This all came to a head in 70 AD. None of it is in our future!!

 

[garee]

Hi Friend,

I respectfully disagree. Let's take the actually literal translation of the Mat 24 passage. Before we do, please note that the "end of the age (or world)" does not appear in the other two versions. Only the temple destruction is in focus. In the below passage, mis-translations have caused so much confusion. So, please see the correct translation from the YLT:

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Two main points here that pretty much all other translations get wrong.

1) It was to be the PRESENCE OF CHRIST that was to return, not bodily Christ visible and obvious.
2) It was to be the END OF THE AGE, not the world.

Let's take point 2 first: I've repeatedly provided Josephus's usage of the same meaning of point 2 and here it is again. Remember, its how they wrote, spoke and understood, not us. If you took a first century English speaking person and brought them into our colloquial rich modern lingo, they would struggle to understand much of what we are saying. So, here's Josephus:

"But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Ab."

Thus we know that the end of their age occurred on the 10th of Ab on our 70 AD calendar. One age is replaced by another. We are in a different age today.

Now let's take point 1. If the return of Christ's presence was to be the massive world-wide visible event why did the disciples ask for the sign of it? Note, in Christ's answer He makes several comments. First He provides the beginnings of sorrows and tells what would happen to the disciples, which all happened. Then He speaks of the great tribulation that the city of Jerusalem would endure. He describes His return as a flash of lightening.

He then addresses the specific sign, "the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven." This sign was recorded by Josephus.

Hi thanks for the reply and the friend .

I see that a little differently. I see no reason to divide the sign of his presence, from the full end of the age the last day. No visual sign as a wonder was given. The last given was the sign of Jonas Jesus fulfilled it when the veil was rent. He said it is finished

Six times in John the use of the "last day" in the twinkling of the eye to represent the end of time. The time the saints receive the promise of a incorruptible body and death as to the letter of the law will be cast in the judgment of God. Death will ever to rise and corrupt another whole creation.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The sign of the Son of Man in the heaven is the last day .

Some did know Christ after the flesh. he will come like a thief in the night. Like Noah we can watch.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthian 5;16

Some are looking for a fleshly Jesus for some reason .

 

[PlainWord]

10th of Av, 3830 = Sun, 3 August 0070

This could be off by 10 days due to a correction of ten days that was introduced by Pope Gregory XIII known as the Gregorian Reformation.

Hi thanks for the reply and the friend .

I see that a little differently. I see no reason to divide the sign of his presence, from the full end of the age the last day. No visual sign as a wonder was given. The last given was the sign of Jonas Jesus fulfilled it when the veil was rent. He said it is finished

Six times in John the use of the "last day" in the twinkling of the eye to represent the end of time. The time the saints receive the promise of a incorruptible body and death as to the letter of the law will be cast in the judgment of God. Death will ever to rise and corrupt another whole creation.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The sign of the Son of Man in the heaven is the last day .

Some did know Christ after the flesh. he will come like a thief in the night. Like Noah we can watch.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.2 Corinthian 5;16

Some are looking for a fleshly Jesus for some reason .

Does Jesus say in those 6 times that it was to be the last day of time? Or, does He just say, "Last Day?" If the latter, He could be speaking about the last day of the age, right? Or, the Last Day of Israel as a nation, right? Or perhaps the last day the righteous would spend in Hades? We have a lot of last days in our lives; last day of college, last day as a bachelor, last day on the job, etc, but history continues.

We see in Rev 14, after Babylon has fallen and after the proclamation of the three angels this:

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

People are still dying in the Lord. The clock has not stopped. Of if you want to take the 7th bowl, the last of the plagues in Rev 16, we see this:

Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

People are still alive to blaspheme. Time continues.

What was the sign of Jonah? Please bear in mind that Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights before he ever got to Nineveh to give them the sign. Same thing with Christ. He was in the ground the same amount of time. The sign of Jonas was the warning he gave:.

4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Nineveh was given 40 days. Israel was given 40 years, i.e. one generation. THAT wicked and perverse generation Jesus lived during, could it be their last day that Jesus was talking about?

 

[PlainWord]

Garee,

Actually, I have a stronger argument to make concerning the last day. Let's compare apples to apples.

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days" Jacob goes on to tell them the fate of the 12 tribes which descended from his sons.

Acts 2: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams." Peter was speaking of then and now. This was happening to them. The Holy Spirit came to them. They were and would be prophesying (teaching). Their old men would dream. Their sons and daughters would see visions and prophesy, not their grandchildren or great grandchildren.

2 Tim 3: But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come." It was pretty perilous back then. Their entire country, the 2nd or 3rd most powerful in the known world, was about to be destroyed.

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds." Jesus spoke to them "in the last days!" They were living in the last days!! Their last days, not ours.

James 5: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James, writing to the 12 dispersed tribes, the same 12 Jacob spoke about, foretells what was to befall the wicked Jewish leaders of their day, not our day. The miseries were coming upon you! THEM, not us! Their flesh would be eaten by fire as history proves. They were in their last days. The coming of the Lord was at hand to them! They all spoke this way, dire warnings to their generation for what was soon to befall them.

2 Pet 3: knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts.

They had scoffers mocking those who knew and warned about their pending destruction. All of the warnings of pending disaster were for them, not us. If those warnings were for us then they all perished without warning. No passage, and I mean NONE, speak of a distant future for these events to unfold. I dare you to find me one that does. Love ya Brother!!

 

[garee]

Garee,

Actually, I have a stronger argument to make concerning the last day. Let's compare apples to apples.

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days" Jacob goes on to tell them the fate of the 12 tribes which descended from his sons.

Acts 2: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams." Peter was speaking of then and now. This was happening to them. The Holy Spirit came to them. They were and would be prophesying (teaching). Their old men would dream. Their sons and daughters would see visions and prophesy, not their grandchildren or great grandchildren.

2 Tim 3: But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come." It was pretty perilous back then. Their entire country, the 2nd or 3rd most powerful in the known world, was about to be destroyed.

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds." Jesus spoke to them "in the last days!" They were living in the last days!! Their last days, not ours.

James 5: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James, writing to the 12 dispersed tribes, the same 12 Jacob spoke about, foretells what was to befall the wicked Jewish leaders of their day, not our day. The miseries were coming upon you! THEM, not us! Their flesh would be eaten by fire as history proves. They were in their last days. The coming of the Lord was at hand to them! They all spoke this way, dire warnings to their generation for what was soon to befall them.

2 Pet 3: knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts.

They had scoffers mocking those who knew and warned about their pending destruction. All of the warnings of pending disaster were for them, not us. If those warnings were for us then they all perished without warning. No passage, and I mean NONE, speak of a distant future for these events to unfold. I dare you to find me one that does. Love ya Brother!!

Hi thanks for the reply.

I would offer I see those "last days" references directly connect to the "last day". The end of time.

The Spirit of Christ who dwells in us has in these last days spoken to us by His Son.The same Son who speaks to our hearts today working in us with us our Emanuel.

last days = the whole new testament era .The days we are in. The days that followed the first century reformation when Jesus said: "It is finished". A great tribulation to the world one like never before or ever again (one promised demonstration)

The last day is the end of time called "under the Sun" . No Sun and moon in the new order. It will not be remembered or ever come to mind. The glory of God which has been hidden since Genesis because of the corruption . .The Glory becomes the light of the new heavens and earth and the lamb is the light of it. No more darkness no more night. .(Revelation21)

The same last day of the age. The age being the last days. They began when Christ said "it is finished". The Father's unseen hand tore the veil from the top to the bottom .The way to the holy unseen place of faith was opened. The old testament saints entered in as the glory spoken of in 1 Peter 1:11' The demonstration is over.

They looked ahead by the same spirit of faith as it is written as we look back to the same glorious moment. Receiving the end of their new born again faith from the beginning .Being filled with the work of the Spirit at our new birth.

1 Peter 1:11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Both the resurrection or creation of new creatures receiving their living hope spoken of in Hebrew 11:39 "The newly created incorruptible bodies". . and in the same twinkling of the eye death as to the letter of the law is cast into the judgment fire of God's wrath .Death in respect to the letter of the law will not rise and condemn through corruption, another whole creation . Until then not one jot or title could be removed, or added to

Continued...

 

[garee]

next page...

The age or generation of the "last days" (plural. . 6 witnesses )

Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Still pouring it out today

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

The last day under the Sun or the day of the lord spoken on in Revelation 1. Same last day spoken of in Philippian 1:6 the day of Jesus Christ: The same time period we are in.

The "last day" (singular) 6 witnesses

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word (the letter of the law) that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's a good discussion video with Kent Hovind and Gary Demar.

Gary is amillennial, and he is a partial preterist, as far as I can tell. Hovind is a dispensationalist, although he has rejected the pretribulation rapture as unsupportable, and now holds to a post tribulation rapture.

If you watch the video, notice that Hovind is inconsistent in his hermeneutic. He infers a parenthesis period between the 69th and 70th week, yet there is no place in Scripture where this parenthesis exists.

However, dispensationalists pride themselves at "literalism" and will get very testy if amillennialists recognize symbolism in the Scriptures.

The short of this: they are hypocrites. They impose a hermeneutical standard upon others that they don't observe themselves.

They can deny it all they want, but that's exactly what they do. They impose standards of interpretation, but violate their own standards when it is necessary to "Scotch tape" their theology.

I find this amusing.

By the way, I like Hovind a "little" more than I used to, because at least he was not as nasty as he has been in the past. Make no mistake..I'm not a fan of his, but at least he has the humility to admit his error of pretribulation rapture, which is not biblically supported.

Notice that Hovind claims the mark of the Beast is a bar code, in essence LOL

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, I am not a full preterist..I'm not sure if Gary is, or not.

I believe that the Olivet Discourse has been partially fulfilled, but this is apparent since the Temple has fallen. So, I wouldn't necessarily totally agree with Gary, but I haven't examined his beliefs closely enough to determine this.

I am amillennial, and I suspect he is postmillennial.

 

[PlainWord]

next page...

The age or generation of the "last days" (plural. . 6 witnesses )

Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Still pouring it out today

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

The last day under the Sun or the day of the lord spoken on in Revelation 1. Same last day spoken of in Philippian 1:6 the day of Jesus Christ: The same time period we are in.

The "last day" (singular) 6 witnesses

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word (the letter of the law) that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So you see all of us from Peter to now as still being in the last days?? I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. All of the urgency and immanency that they wrote about 2,000 years ago, in your mind, has been and remains imminent. The thing about the no moon and sun doesn't apply to our physical realm. It applies to the spiritual realm. When Christ did what He said He would do in those John 6 and 11 passages you cite, He rose them up to the spiritual realm AKA Heaven, not back here to Earth.

 

[PlainWord]

By the way, I am not a full preterist..I'm not sure if Gary is, or not.

I believe that the Olivet Discourse has been partially fulfilled, but this is apparent since the Temple has fallen. So, I wouldn't necessarily totally agree with Gary, but I haven't examined his beliefs closely enough to determine this.

I am amillennial, and I suspect he is postmillennial.

At least you are a partial preterist so there is hope for you that you will come the rest of the way. Have you read the relative parts of Josephus? Just read Books 5 and 6 and you will get there.

Not recognizing that the Presence of Christ returned in the first century to exact punishment on wicked Israel is likely the main piece missing for you.

 

[PlainWord]

Here's a good discussion video with Kent Hovind and Gary Demar.

Gary is amillennial, and he is a partial preterist, as far as I can tell. Hovind is a dispensationalist, although he has rejected the pretribulation rapture as unsupportable, and now holds to a post tribulation rapture.

If you watch the video, notice that Hovind is inconsistent in his hermeneutic. He infers a parenthesis period between the 69th and 70th week, yet there is no place in Scripture where this parenthesis exists.

However, dispensationalists pride themselves at "literalism" and will get very testy if amillennialists recognize symbolism in the Scriptures.

The short of this: they are hypocrites. They impose a hermeneutical standard upon others that they don't observe themselves.

They can deny it all they want, but that's exactly what they do. They impose standards of interpretation, but violate their own standards when it is necessary to "Scotch tape" their theology.

I find this amusing.

By the way, I like Hovind a "little" more than I used to, because at least he was not as nasty as he has been in the past. Make no mistake..I'm not a fan of his, but at least he has the humility to admit his error of pretribulation rapture, which is not biblically supported.

Notice that Hovind claims the mark of the Beast is a bar code, in essence LOL

Gary slays Kent. Gary has it mostly right. But he still misses the fulfillment of some things.

 

[azamzimtoti]

We see in Rev 14, after Babylon has fallen and after the proclamation of the three angels this:

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

People are still dying in the Lord. The clock has not stopped. Of if you want to take the 7th bowl, the last of the plagues in Rev 16, we see this:

Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

People are still alive to blaspheme. Time continues.

Couple of points here PLW, you have stated we are in the millennium if I remember rightly. So if people are still blaspheming, how is it that in the age to come people still have the potential to blaspheme?

(Mat 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. )

What is the age to come? Is it not the age we are now in? The Jews understood that the age of Messiah would follow the age they were living in, "this age" i.e. the age of Moses, which you agree ended within the 66-70 AD time frame.

As for the 7th bowl or seventh plague I think we can consider them to have occurred during the lifetime of those that heard Jesus speak:

(Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.)

(Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.)

Considering that John in his revelation stated the things he saw "must shortly come to pass" John purposely uses the same "fall on us" motif at the time of the sixth seal:

(Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood)

(Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.)

At the opening of the sixth seal, "the stars of heaven fell to earth" and then John brings in the motif Jesus used:

(Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb)

From the above we can discern that the sixth seal occurred in the lifetime of the women when they would be weeping for themselves and their children.

Since there is no thousands of years delay between the sixth and seventh seal we can conclude that the seventh seal also came within the same time frame.

In my opinion the millennium ended in the 1st century and that at its conclusion we entered the "age to come" of Jesus statement in Matt 12:32 were there is still blasphemy, and dying as you pointed out.

 

[crossnote]

I noticed an interesting thing Scripture reveals concerning the Kingdom...

While the people were listening to these things, Jesus proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. Luke 19:11

Their mistake was not that they thought the Kingdom would appear (it will), but their mistake was the misconception it would appear 'immediately'. This runs along the same lines as...

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. (Act 1:6-7)

Here, Jesus didn't deny the appearing of the future Kingdom, He just told His disciples it was not for them to know 'when'.

 

[PlainWord]

Couple of points here PLW, you have stated we are in the millennium if I remember rightly. So if people are still blaspheming, how is it that in the age to come people still have the potential to blaspheme?

(Mat 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. )

What is the age to come? Is it not the age we are now in? The Jews understood that the age of Messiah would follow the age they were living in, "this age" i.e. the age of Moses, which you agree ended within the 66-70 AD time frame.

As for the 7th bowl or seventh plague I think we can consider them to have occurred during the lifetime of those that heard Jesus speak:

(Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.)

(Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.)

Considering that John in his revelation stated the things he saw "must shortly come to pass" John purposely uses the same "fall on us" motif at the time of the sixth seal:

(Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood)

(Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.)

At the opening of the sixth seal, "the stars of heaven fell to earth" and then John brings in the motif Jesus used:

(Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb)

From the above we can discern that the sixth seal occurred in the lifetime of the women when they would be weeping for themselves and their children.

Since there is no thousands of years delay between the sixth and seventh seal we can conclude that the seventh seal also came within the same time frame.

In my opinion the millennium ended in the 1st century and that at its conclusion we entered the "age to come" of Jesus statement in Matt 12:32 were there is still blasphemy, and dying as you pointed out.

So you are in the 40-year millennial camp? Many preterists are. At least we agree on the big things, if I understand you correctly.

Yes, I believe we entered our new age in the 66-70 time frame. I am not aware of anything that says there would be no blaspheme in our age, further I don't see where there isn't supposed to be those not forgiven in our age. There would be dying too. The Mat 12 passage you cited isn't all that different from Heb 6:

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

There is still sin and condemnation in our age. Remember, Satan was only bound from deceiving the nations for a period of time. Nothing says sin ceases. Quite the contrary as we both provided passages of sin in our age.

 

[PlainWord]

I noticed an interesting thing Scripture reveals concerning the Kingdom...

While the people were listening to these things, Jesus proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. Luke 19:11

Their mistake was not that they thought the Kingdom would appear (it will), but their mistake was the misconception it would appear 'immediately'. This runs along the same lines as...

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. (Act 1:6-7)

Here, Jesus didn't deny the appearing of the future Kingdom, He just told His disciples it was not for them to know 'when'.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

 

[azamzimtoti]

So you are in the 40-year millennial camp? Many preterists are. At least we agree on the big things, if I understand you correctly.

Yes, I believe we entered our new age in the 66-70 time frame. I am not aware of anything that says there would be no blaspheme in our age, further I don't see where there isn't supposed to be those not forgiven in our age. There would be dying too. The Mat 12 passage you cited isn't all that different from Heb 6:

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

There is still sin and condemnation in our age. Remember, Satan was only bound from deceiving the nations for a period of time. Nothing says sin ceases. Quite the contrary as we both provided passages of sin in our age.

Yes. I'm in the 40 year millennium tent, the saints that lived in this time were John's firstfruits of revelation.

I think you have stated that the resurrection occurred in the 1st century:

(Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.)

(Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.)

If as is your premise that the resurrection was in the 1st century, this would place the end of the millennium at that resurrection.