Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I read carefully

In 70 ad, there was no ARMIES surrounding jerusalem. Titus was one armie. not multiple. he was one commander. the people who destroyed the temple was the army which was already there, they came from the fort antonia and destroyed the city.

it might help if you study history

also. ww1 and ww2 made what titus did to jerusalem look like a picnic, because it was NOT the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen. nor was all life threatened demanding Jesus return for the sake of the elect (he who endures to the end will be saved)

and prophesy, the ARMIEs (plural) from many nations, will surround Jerusalem in the future.

The great tribulation as the last days.It began when the time of reformation had come . It will end of the last day the day of the Lord. He will come like a thief in the night. when no man expects.

The gospel picture to the whole world. . a God of all nations as the unseen King of heaven .Previously thought of as a God of one nation.

The Jews coming from the Hitties and Amorites were used to represent the whole of mankind. They lost their temporal identification in regard to their flesh. A great tribulation like never before or ever again .One demonstration that showed the world He not a God of the Jew alone . A great Jubilation for his born again bride the church .men and woman speaking with their new tongue the gospel. An explosion that still is rocking the whole world

Daniel prophesied that great tribulation that will end on the last day . Men looking to put a face on Christianity as If God was a man as us to begin with .

Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV) 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

"It is finished" clearly began the work of great tribulation and Jubilee . Those that slept in the dust arose out of the graves as promised and entered the resurrection gates .They will be closed on the last day. No 7 year vacation .

Matthew 27:50-53 King James Version (KJV) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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would recommend the book, A Case for Amillennialism, by Kim Riddlebarger, for a good understanding on this topic.

Dispensationalists are not even aware that there are other options, for the most part.

Here's what you must believe as a dispensationalist:

You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming

You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

Here's an article which addresses the problems with each of these claims, by an ex-dispensationalist, Sam Storms.

By the way, the problem is not only with dispensationalists, it is a problem with historical premillennialism.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,488
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This goes all the way back to Daniel. To insert modern terms, the Amillennialists recognized the Kingdom had arrived as a spiritual Kingdom at the time of the Roman Empire. This according to the prophecy. The Pharisees, the Premilleenialist and Dispensationalists were spiritually blind and said it didn't arrive. So they either inserted a gap, changed Jesus into Antichrist, and moved it thousands of years into the future, and still counting. Or said the physical kingdom they expect is still future, adding another kingdom to scripture Jesus clearly denounced in his wranglings with the Pharisees.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,498
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Here's a pdf file with an article by Sam Storms that explains the problems with premillennialism, including dispensationalism, very well.

i don't think the link I listed above works.

Sam is an amillennialist like myself. He used to be a dispensationalist. He has written a book "Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative" on this matter.

Kim Riddlebarger's book "A Case For Amillennialism" is also excellent.

I challenge dispensationalists or historical premillennialists to refute his arguments. I find them rock solid.

I used to be a premillennialist myself.
 

Attachments

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,498
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This goes all the way back to Daniel. To insert modern terms, the Amillennialists recognized the Kingdom had arrived as a spiritual Kingdom at the time of the Roman Empire. This according to the prophecy. The Pharisees, the Premilleenialist and Dispensationalists were spiritually blind and said it didn't arrive. So they either inserted a gap, changed Jesus into Antichrist, and moved it thousands of years into the future, and still counting. Or said the physical kingdom they expect is still future, adding another kingdom to scripture Jesus clearly denounced in his wranglings with the Pharisees.
I don't know about that, but premillennialism is a defective teaching. We can't have death after Jesus returns. At the resurrection, death is defeated, and this occurs when he returns. Also, it's a fundamental problem with relation to the doctrine of union with Christ, claiming that Jews and Gentiles have separate destinies.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,488
683
113
I don't know about that, but premillennialism is a defective teaching. We can't have death after Jesus returns. At the resurrection, death is defeated, and this occurs when he returns. Also, it's a fundamental problem with relation to the doctrine of union with Christ, claiming that Jews and Gentiles have separate destinies.
Jesus says only the born again can see the kingdom. These do not, or they wouldn't be Premillennial or Dispensational.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Jesus says only the born again can see the kingdom. These do not, or they wouldn't be Premillennial or Dispensational.
I'm not sure what you mean, but I wouldn't call premillennialists unsaved, only confused.

Severely confused.

Misled.

I was premillennialist up until the last 3 years or so.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,488
683
113
I'm not sure what you mean, but I wouldn't call premillennialists unsaved, only confused.

Severely confused.

Misled.

I was premillennialist up until the last 3 years or so.
I think they and Dispensationalists are part of the great apostasy along with the Charismatic movement. But I fell into all three movements until years of study set me free.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Can you provide any references from recognized authors which support this view that dispensationalism is a Pharisee doctrine, and explains their position?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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The real issue is this...

Dispensationalists interpret Scripture through an Israel-centric interpretative grid.

Covenant theology interprets Scripture through a Christocentric interpretative grid.

That's the major source of their problem. Once Christ is supplanted as the central theme of Scripture, things go awry.

Christ is the true Israel and the second Adam. He fulfills the offices of prophet, priest, and king. He is the one who defeats Satan in the wilderness, which Israel failed to do.

And, he will vanquish the last enemy, Death, at the resurrection. He will sentence all of his enemies to death at his return. No enemy will be allowed to continue to wreak havoc on the earth, even for the slightest minute, after his return because they will all be destroyed.

Focused on Christ.jpg
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,488
683
113
Is there any conservative Christian author who promotes this view, though?

Joseph Jacobs was Jewish in his faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jacobs

Perhaps you are just saying that Jews prior to Christ were already teaching the Millennium. If that is true, then it certainly would be an odd thing, and would be suspect.
Possibly, but I'm going mainly on the Ecumenical Creeds and opening studies based on their findings.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,276
2,324
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would recommend the book, A Case for Amillennialism, by Kim Riddlebarger, for a good understanding on this topic.

Dispensationalists are not even aware that there are other options, for the most part.

Here's what you must believe as a dispensationalist:

You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming

You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

Here's an article which addresses the problems with each of these claims, by an ex-dispensationalist, Sam Storms.

By the way, the problem is not only with dispensationalists, it is a problem with historical premillennialism.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/
I used to go to Riddlebarger and Michael Horton’s Church. Although I’m onboard with the Reformational view regarding soteriology and especially the Solas, I’m not when it comes to eschatology. Whether you know it or not, the early dispensationalists were from a Reformed perspective.