Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Being raised up in the midst of the Southern Baptist, I heard plenty about a pre trib rapture, but never heard scripture for it. Those prophecy teachers would come around with all sorts of charts and pictures of scary monsters, but still I did not connect any dots.

I find it unfortunate that many who've been "taught pre-trib" have actually been taught a very lame/flawed/incorrect version of it (as I've been discussing this Subject with ppl for some 45 years or thereabouts [not all "online"]), that it is no wonder many haven't been able to grasp it or see it in Scripture... I don't blame them. lol

 

[cv5]

I find it unfortunate that many who've been "taught pre-trib" have actually been taught a very lame/flawed/incorrect version of it (as I've been discussing this Subject with ppl for some 45 years or thereabouts), that it is no wonder many haven't been able to grasp it or see it in Scripture... I don't blame them. lol

Yes definitely. The true nature of the far ranging Biblical scope and magnificent unassailable cohesiveness of the REALITY of the pre-trib rapture doctrine is lost on far too many.

Personal, determined study is the necessary requirement to clear the fog.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"And NOW you know what withholds ( The Lord's coming for us ) the revealing of the man of sin...

Right. That IDEA (in the RED ^ ) is being INJECTED INTO the text, rather than what the text itself actually says and is in reference to, here.





[and that's besides the fact that the words "you know" is in the "PERFECT indicative"... "you have known" / "you already know"]

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There is no "Rapture" being spoken of (even in "description-form") in Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

??? Where did I write about that? I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

??? Where did I write about that? I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

Perhaps (you do come across similarly to "FG2" earlier in this thread, LOL) .

In your Post #957, you'd put:

Just read the Bible simply as it is and you'll see that it is a post-trib rapture.

In this thread, I've covered the fact that 2Th2 is not saying such, nor is Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13[,9] speaking of "our Rapture" (and much more passages even earlier in this thread)... so, I'm wondering where [in what text] are you ascertaining "a post-trib rapture"? 1Cor15:23 isn't saying what many suppose it's saying (i.e. ONE resurrection, POST-trib; but rather "[re: resurrection]...each IN THE OWN ORDER/RANK"), so that's another...

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Over-studying? How could that be a liability in properly and accurately rendering the whole council of God?
Most people suffer quite the antipodal condition.....

That's incomplete, I wrote:

You're over-studying in such a way that you're changing meanings or adding to them. Just read the Bible simply as it is and you'll see that it is a post-trib rapture. You don't even need extra books for that!

See, you twist even what other people post, not just what's written in the Bible.

That's why I don't take anything you write seriously. If you can't be honest and truthful, I won't listen to you.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Perhaps (you do come across similarly to "FG2" earlier in this thread, LOL) .

In this thread, I've covered the fact that 2Th2 is not saying such, nor is Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13[,9] speaking of "our Rapture" (and much more passages even earlier in this thread)... so, I'm wondering where [in what text] are you ascertaining "a post-trib rapture"? 1Cor15:23 isn't saying what many suppose it's saying (i.e. ONE resurrection, POST-trib; but rather "each IN THE OWN ORDER/RANK"), so that's another...

All I said is just read the Bible simply without any extra books. And you'll see that it is a post-trib rapture. But you're complicating the simple reading of it with stuff I never mentioned.

That's really where you're problem is.

I think that's Satan's tactic. Get people as confused as possible and they'll just accept whatever false teaching he's pushing like the pre-trib rapture.

 

[cv5]

TIf you can't be honest and truthful, I won't listen to you.

No skin off my nose. Those links I posted for your consideration are more valuable than fine gold. And now would be the time to really dig in and comprehend what is being said.

Phl 3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No they do not. The text states "THE DEPARTURE". Period. No more, no less.
Which the early translators judicially and property interpreted to say that and nothing more.

Right.

It is the CONTEXT which determines "WHAT KIND" of "[THE] departure" is MEANT.

This same Greek word was used in that era to speak of [things like] "the departing of a fever" and "the departure of a boat from a dock"... but we don't inject those underlined phrases in this text (nor should one INJECT the idea of "from the faith" which isn't spoke of in this text... It simply READS: "THE departure FIRST and...")


Again, the context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant... and I already mentioned the fact that the "definite article ['THE']" (used HERE) FUNCTIONS to point BACK to something having been PREVIOUSLY spoken of in this text (not something further on in the text, such as vv.10-12,9, or the like)... and Verse 1 (Paul's Subject HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR on the matter of the "false claim" in v.2) "fits" the bill perfectly. No need to READ INTO the text, the IDEA of "from the faith" (which is absent in this text!)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@2ndTimeIsTheCharm 's Post #967... I still am not seeing any response to the question I posed to you, in my quote you grabbed (in that post of yours), where I'd asked you:

TDW: so, I'm wondering where [in what text] are you ascertaining "a post-trib rapture"?

That's really where you're problem is.

I think that's Satan's tactic. Get people as confused as possible and they'll just accept whatever false teaching he's pushing like the pre-trib rapture.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

@2ndTimeIsTheCharm 's Post #967... I still am not seeing any response to the question I posed to you, in my quote you grabbed (in that post of yours), where I'd asked you:

No, you've already made up your mind. I'd just going to end up wasting my time if I do.

-=<*>=-

Go on with deceiving yourself. God said that this is what will happen in the last days. You'll remember this when the antichrist has been revealed and you're still here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@2ndTimeIsTheCharm ,

in another of your posts, you'd put:

According the scriptures, you'll be waiting until AFTER the great tribulation ends.

If you don't believe this [...]

You are referencing "rapture" here, right?... but I'm asking you to supply WHAT PASSAGE / PASSAGES you ascertain this info from.

I've not yet see you supply anything from scripture, in this regard...



... yet you claim, "you've been shown" (or similar wording, you'd put).


Well, I'm saying... I've not yet seen it explained, from your end...

PLEASE EXPLAIN (from Scripture, of course)... !

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

nullifying the idea of "looking for signs of the man of sin, son of Perdition,"

Right.


And this is what scholars MEAN when they use the term "imminence / imminent" (speaking of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," not His Second Coming to the earth); because ALL of the [biblically-defined] "SIGNS" FOLLOW "our Rapture" and are what precede and lead UP TO [pointing toward] Christ's Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19) FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and its parallel in Matt24:42-51, etc etc...]).



By "imminence / imminent," they are NOT saying "[our Rapture] can happen AT ANY TIME"... They simply mean, NO "SIGNS" precede it (pointing to / toward it)... the "signs" all take place AFTER "our Rapture" (i.e. they occur in the Trib yrs).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

BUT you have Paul and without excuse

Simply put, there are some things that must happen 1st before The Lord raptures and glorifies His bride [...]

But what the text in 2Th2 is saying is that "ONE THING" must happen "FIRST" before "the day of the Lord" can TRUTHFULLY be said to "BE PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" (as was the "false claim" saying, v.2... what Paul is telling them about...).

Note also that the "man of sin BE REVEALED" occurs at the SAME MOMENT that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES--so that WHEN his/man-of-sin's "who COMETH / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" takes place, 2Th2:9a[,8a] (i.e. Seal #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Mt24:4/Mk13:5]" at the START of the "7 yr period), "the Day of the Lord" WILL INDEED (at that time) "be present"!




["the DOTL" does not COMMENCE at Christ's Second Coming to the earth time-slot, Rev19, as many suppose; but WELL-PRIOR TO that point in the chronology]

 

[MessengerofTruth]

I do a lot of pondering about end times and what it’ll look like for the believer. No one in my church wants to talk about it, so I thought I’d bring it here.

I have heard a few theologians proclaim that a pre-trib rapture is false doctrine, and a “lie from the pit of hell”.

I’m a pre-tribber married to a post tribber, and frankly, his arguments for a post tribulational rapture don’t hold water as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps a post-tribber from this forum can make me understand.

I have an open mind. Mostly because I fully expected the rapture to happen last year. The numbers just made sense. 2021 was 73 years since Israel became a nation, leaving 7 years for the tribulation culminating in the 80-year-old-generation mentioned in Psalms.

Regardless, God is angry, and He’s about to punish the entire planet, and I’m persuaded that ours is the generation that will see these things come to pass. With a possible (probable?) WWIII scenario, and end time prophecies jumping off the pages of the Bible, I am fascinated, excited, and a little nervous. I would love to read the thoughts of any post-tribbers on what you think it will look like for believers to go through the tribulation (specifically, the 7 trumpets, seals and bowls of The Revelation.)

Do post-tribbers believe that as God’s elect, we are subject to the same wrath as everyone else? For instance, at some point the earth will be bombarded with 75 lb hailstones (Rev 16:21). Are we subject to God’s wrath in that we will be crushed along with everyone else? Or will they not effect us? When those crazy looking locusts are tormenting the population, are we to be supernaturally protected from them?

If you’re a post-tribber (or even a non-tribber) convince me that I’m wrong. I wouldn’t want to believe God for something that’s never going to happen based on misinterpreted scripture.

Anybody?

We will soon find out if we are going to go through the Great tribulation.

Instead of getting upset with one another, let's live like we could be raptured any minute and will be going through the Great Tribulation as well.

 

[cv5]

We will soon find out if we are going to go through the Great tribulation.

Instead of getting upset with one another, let's live like we could be raptured any minute and will be going through the Great Tribulation as well.

Nothing wrong with knowing in advance bro. The Holy Ghost didn't have Paul write all of those passages for no purpose. The purpose was our blessed assurance in the knowledge of being removed from the time of God's wrath upon the earth. The upper room discourse serves the same purpose.

BTW.......the gospel that was written to the Church, John, does not contain anything about the 70th week tribulation OR the Second Coming. This Gospel speaks to the end of the age yes, BUT ONLY our age, the Church age, which end point is the rapture. A fact which is lost on many.

 

[Joelightening]

We will soon find out if we are going to go through the Great tribulation.

Instead of getting upset with one another, let's live like we could be raptured any minute and will be going through the Great Tribulation as well.

Pre trib rapture theory was started by John Darby from England in the 19th century. It has no scriptural attestation, only loosely drawn conclusions. It has no spiritual value.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

In your wording here ^ , you've completely skipped over / by-passed verse 2, which is Paul telling about "the false claim" he doesn't want the Thessalonians to be "shaken in mind" and "troubled" by as though it were true;

and that "false claim" is: [anyone] "[purporting] that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]". (It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY it cannot be so.)

That's the Subject v.3a starts out with, where it says "that day" (i.e. v.2's false claim's Subject, NOT v.1's Subject PAUL is bringing TO CORRECT the "false claim" of v.2).



Many people, when viewing the word "that day" (v.3a), reach back OVER AND PAST Verse 2's FALSE CLAIM ("that the day of the Lord is present"), ignoring that, to grab VERSE 1's Subject (about Jesus, and "our episynagoes unto Him," etc)... as you've done here by leaving verse 2 out entirely from your "example sentence" (i.e. "it would say THIS, which makes NO SENSE")...
Of course what you've put makes no sense[!]... but what you've put also (hate to say it) butchers the text, and is not at all reflective of the actual wording supplied in the text. You're leaving OUT a very vital piece of the text (verse 2!), as you have it written, above.





[another major assumption (tho incorrect) is that "the day of the Lord" (v.2--the Subject of the "false claim") here MEANS "Christ's Second Coming"... but Paul's words in 1Thess5:1-3 PROVE that "the day of the Lord" its ARRIVAL commences WELL-PRIOR to that point (tho it also goes on to INCLUDE the entire MK age, but the "false claim" of 2Th2:2 is speaking of the earliest parts of it [the parts consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME], not the latter parts of it [the "BLESSINGs"/MK part]...)]

Thanks, a little over my finite mind 😇 so, let me see - in layman's terms:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day Of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for That Day shall not come, except there come a falling [THE Departure] away [from earth] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..."
. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓ ↑ ↓
Sound about right? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DOTL starts here? Or:

"the DOTL" does not COMMENCE at Christ's Second Coming to the earth time-slot, Rev19, as many suppose; but WELL-PRIOR TO that point in the chronology

Just to clarify: The Day Of The LORD Begins at "THE revelation of The Wicked one, or in the Second Half on Daniel's Seventieth Week?

Of course, there is also this for diligent students, eh?:

Day Of CHRIST (LIGHT!) Vs The Day of The LORD (Darkness!)

Amen.

 

[cv5]

Pre trib rapture theory was started by John Darby from England in the 19th century. It has no scriptural attestation, only loosely drawn conclusions. It has no spiritual value.

Pre-tribbers batting 1000 on this thread. Just like they do on all of the other threads. Thus far an uninterrupted series of victories from the get-go.

It is posts like yours that always seal the victory.

 

[Beckie]

the change in font and the over use [] caps and yelling makes post very hard to read.... many of us have old eyes