Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[Evmur]

I am more than comfortable sticking with these earliest translations. For the reasons delineated below....

https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4666867

TRANSLATION HISTORY

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible Page (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).7 This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”

Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.9 It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.” The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism. It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star. 13 Another pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.1

If that were true Paul would be saying this

"brethren concerning the departure [rapture]
that day will not come unless a departure has first taken place"

... doesn't make a jot of sense

 

[cv5]

If that were true Paul would be saying this

"brethren concerning the departure [rapture]
that day will not come unless a departure has first taken place"

... doesn't make a jot of sense

No! What you have said is a MISQUOTE!

Tyndale Bible
3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Geneva Bible
3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

2Th 2:3 (KJV)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[cv5]

If that were true Paul would be saying this

"brethren concerning the departure [rapture]
that day will not come unless a departure has first taken place"

... doesn't make a jot of sense

You are scrambling those verses incoherently.
Here is what is said:

Geneva Bible of 1599

(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
(2) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

BTW, although it is not explicitly stated in the text, one may confidently deduce that the Thessalonians were duped by a false letter, and because of this, they thought that the DOTL was upon them.......AND THAT THEY MISSED THE RAPTURE.

2Th 2:2
not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

[Joelightening]

To my knowledge it has never been the position of the Catholics that there will be a rapture prior to the 2nd coming of Christ. Departure may have meant falling away to them at times in history, but it never meant rapture. Has far back as around 400 John Chrysostom quoted 2Thess 2:3 and used falling away in that quotation.

 

[cv5]

To my knowledge it has never been the position of the Catholics that there will be a rapture prior to the 2nd coming of Christ. Departure may have meant falling away to them at times in history, but it never meant rapture. Has far back as around 400 John Chrysostom quoted 2Thess 2:3 and used falling away in that quotation.

There are VAST SWEEPING METAPHORICAL TYPES that underpin and describe the pre-trib Rapture.

I suggest you use the search tool and find out how the Jewish marriage ceremony relates to the pre-trib rapture.
The more study and knowledge you have in the matter, the stronger the case for the Pre-trib rapture becomes.

In fact the finest scholars here on CC have assiduously methodically produced an overwhelming impenetrable boilerplate case FOR the pre-trib rapture. You should read about it some time. Using those links that I have already provided.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I am more than comfortable sticking with these earliest translations. For the reasons delineated below....

https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4666867

TRANSLATION HISTORY

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible Page (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).7 This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”

Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.9 It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.” The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism. It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star. 13 Another pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.1

Even in the older bibles that you mentioned, "departure" meant departure from the faith.

I don't need to read any of your extra-biblical books to explain your false teaching. The Bible itself is enough to tell us what is going to actually happen.

You've already been shown what the Bible says, but if you and others want to keep believing the false teaching of pre-trib rapture, you won't be ready when the antichrist is revealed and you're still here.

What will you do then? Take the mark of the beast so you don't starve? Betray other Christians so you don't get killed? You might do those very things if you don't build up your faith to endure to the end.

Taking the mark and betraying the faithful has very severe consequences, worse than anything the antichrist will do to Christians.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

if you and others want to keep believing the false teaching of pre-trib rapture, you won't be ready when the antichrist is revealed and you're still here.

But, According To The Scriptures, we keep believing it anyway, always:

"Looking, Watching, And Patiently Waiting For our Blessed Hope":

The LORD Jesus Christ! ​

​

(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7; Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)

nullifying the idea of "looking for signs of the man of sin, son of Perdition,"
because, According To The Scriptures, Rightly Divided, we find:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If that were true Paul would be saying this
"brethren concerning the departure [rapture]
that day will not come unless a departure has first taken place"
... doesn't make a jot of sense

In your wording here ^ , you've completely skipped over / by-passed verse 2, which is Paul telling about "the false claim" he doesn't want the Thessalonians to be "shaken in mind" and "troubled" by as though it were true;

and that "false claim" is: [anyone] "[purporting] that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]". (It wasn't, and Paul explains WHY it cannot be so.)

That's the Subject v.3a starts out with, where it says "that day" (i.e. v.2's false claim's Subject, NOT v.1's Subject PAUL is bringing TO CORRECT the "false claim" of v.2).



Many people, when viewing the word "that day" (v.3a), reach back OVER AND PAST Verse 2's FALSE CLAIM ("that the day of the Lord is present"), ignoring that, to grab VERSE 1's Subject (about Jesus, and "our episynagoes unto Him," etc)... as you've done here by leaving verse 2 out entirely from your "example sentence" (i.e. "it would say THIS, which makes NO SENSE")...
Of course what you've put makes no sense[!]... but what you've put also (hate to say it) butchers the text, and is not at all reflective of the actual wording supplied in the text. You're leaving OUT a very vital piece of the text (verse 2!), as you have it written, above.





[another major assumption (tho incorrect) is that "the day of the Lord" (v.2--the Subject of the "false claim") here MEANS "Christ's Second Coming"... but Paul's words in 1Thess5:1-3 PROVE that "the day of the Lord" its ARRIVAL commences WELL-PRIOR to that point (tho it also goes on to INCLUDE the entire MK age, but the "false claim" of 2Th2:2 is speaking of the earliest parts of it [the parts consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME], not the latter parts of it [the "BLESSINGs"/MK part]...)]

 

[cv5]

Even in the older bibles that you mentioned, "departure" meant departure from the faith.

No they do not. The text states "THE DEPARTURE". Period. No more, no less.
Which the early translators judicially and property interpreted to say that and nothing more.

 

[cv5]

Even in the older bibles that you mentioned, "departure" meant departure from the faith.

I don't need to read any of your extra-biblical books to explain your false teaching. The Bible itself is enough to tell us what is going to actually happen.

You've already been shown what the Bible says, but if you and others want to keep believing the false teaching of pre-trib rapture, you won't be ready when the antichrist is revealed and you're still here.

What will you do then? Take the mark of the beast so you don't starve? Betray other Christians so you don't get killed? You might do those very things if you don't build up your faith to endure to the end.

Taking the mark and betraying the faithful has very severe consequences, worse than anything the antichrist will do to Christians.

Here you go buddy. Take a month or two and go thru this and get back to us. As of now, you really are not adding any value to the dialogue.

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[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

No they do not. The text states "THE DEPARTURE". Period. No more, no less.
Which the early translators judicially and property interpreted to say that and nothing more.

It doesn't mean secret rapture that's for sure. It means departing from the faith. That hasn't changed.

But, According To The Scriptures, we keep believing it anyway, always:

"Looking, Watching, And Patiently Waiting For our Blessed Hope":

The LORD Jesus Christ! ​

​

According the scriptures, you'll be waiting until AFTER the great tribulation ends.

If you don't believe this, at least build up your faith to endure. There's no harm in doing that. If the Lord comes back before the great tribulation, great! But if He doesn't, if you've built up your faith, you'll be able to remain faithful to the Lord in face of all that will happen against Christians in the great tribulation.

nullifying the idea of "looking for signs of the man of sin, son of Perdition,"
because, According To The Scriptures, Rightly Divided, we find:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)! + RICH Blessings

Smh.... You know none of your flowery words will make a difference when the great tribulation arrives and you're still here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

the y could have heard this
Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You're on the right track[!] but actually, it connects to a much earlier part of Jesus' words in Matthew 24... Allow me to try and explain:

Paul says that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... "exactly like [hosper]"... the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman...

...and this is exactly what Jesus had spoken of when He said (in Matt24) "these are the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" vv.4-8 (of many more that will FOLLOW ON from those)...Note that "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 and its parallels) are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the "7-yrs" we commonly call the "Trib"...

...And the FIRST THING Jesus LISTED in those, is "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (FOR MANY shall come in my name saying "I am the Christ..."--but Jesus here is warning of ONE PARTICULAR ONE, i.e. the rider of the white horse with a bow, i.e. SEAL #1, the KICK-OFF moment of that specific, future, LIMITED *time-period* [consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth] we commonly call the "Tribulation period" [what Rev1:1 calls "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" - 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1-- i.e. the "future" aspects of that Book... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6, etc]).


In 1Th5:1-3, Paul says the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the day of the Lord" (earthly-located TIME-PERIOD consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth) ARRIVES like a thief "IN THE NIGHT".

[2Th2... he elaborates further...]

 

[cv5]

It doesn't mean secret rapture that's for sure. It means departing from the faith. That hasn't changed.




According the scriptures, you'll be waiting until AFTER the great tribulation ends.

If you don't believe this, at least build up your faith to endure. There's no harm in doing that. If the Lord comes back before the great tribulation, great! But if He doesn't, if you've built up your faith, you'll be able to remain faithful to the Lord in face of all that will happen against Christians in the great tribulation.



Smh.... You know none of your flowery words will make a difference when the great tribulation arrives and you're still here.

Long on declarations, short on proof texts. You are not going to win a case that way.
If you would take the time and effort to study the content of those links...you could do much to remedy this deficiency.

 

[cv5]

You're on the right track[!] but actually, it connects to a much earlier part of Jesus' words in Matthew 24... Allow me to try and explain:

Paul says that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES... "exactly like [hosper]"... the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that COMES UPON a woman...

...and this is exactly what Jesus had spoken of when He said (in Matt24) "these are the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" vv.4-8 (of many more that will FOLLOW ON from those)...Note that "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8 and its parallels) are EQUIVALENT the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the "7-yrs" we commonly call the "Trib"...

...And the FIRST THING Jesus LISTED in those, is "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (FOR MANY shall come in my name saying "I am the Christ..."--but Jesus here is warning of ONE PARTICULAR ONE, i.e. the rider of the white horse with a bow, i.e. SEAL #1, the KICK-OFF moment of that specific, future, LIMITED *time-period* [consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth] we commonly call the "Tribulation period" [what Rev1:1 calls "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" - 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1-- i.e. the "future" aspects of that Book... when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6, etc]).


In 1Th5:1-3, Paul says the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the day of the Lord" (earthly-located TIME-PERIOD consisting of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth) ARRIVES like a thief "IN THE NIGHT".

[2Th2... he elaborates further...]

Totally agree with your exegetical treatment.

Mat 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man G5100 deceive you.
Mat 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


G5100 - tis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a certain, a certain one

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Long on declarations, short on proof texts. You are not going to win a case that way.
If you would take the time and effort to study the content of those links...you could do much to remedy this deficiency.

This is not about "winning" or having the last word. Satan is petty like that too. But go on. I know you will.

I've already left enough scripture and exhortation about getting ready for the last days for other readers. Have a great day!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According the scriptures, you'll be waiting until AFTER the great tribulation ends.

Matthew 24:29-31 (and parallels) is not speaking of our "SNATCH / Rapture / caught up / harpagēsometha [G726]"...

Rather, Matthew 24:29-31 (GREAT trumpet) AFTER the great trib is speaking of that which the OT had spoken of in Isaiah 27:12-13[,9] (GREAT trumpet) when the believing remnant of Israel will be "gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" into one place upon the EARTH, "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"

[let the readers COMPARE: Isa27:9 with that of both Romans 11:26-27 and what is said (about Israel) in the time-prophecy of Daniel 9:24... and many other passages, such as Hosea 5:14-6:3, Rom11:15[,25], Isa26:13-21,19, Ezek37:12-14,20-23... which passages LIKEN it to a "resurrection" regarding Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED...).
"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is not who've been judicially scattered, see...





[NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of our "Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but rather the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age) and what events immediately precede and LEAD UP to THAT]

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Matthew 24:29-31 (and parallels) is not speaking of our "SNATCH / Rapture / caught up / harpagēsometha [G726]"...

Rather, Matthew 24:29-31 (GREAT trumpet) AFTER the great trib is speaking of that which the OT had spoken of in Isaiah 27:12-13[,9] (GREAT trumpet) when the believing remnant of Israel will be "gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" into one place upon the EARTH, "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"

[let the readers COMPARE: Isa27:9 with that of both Romans 11:26-27 and what is said (about Israel) in the time-prophecy of Daniel 9:24... and many other passages, such as Hosea 5:14-6:3, Rom11:15[,25], Isa26:13-21,19, Ezek37:12-14,20-23... which passages LIKEN it to a "resurrection" regarding Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED...).
"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is not who've been judicially scattered, see...

You're over-studying in such a way that you're changing meanings or adding to them. Just read the Bible simply as it is and you'll see that it is a post-trib rapture. You don't even need extra books for that!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You're over-studying in such a way that you're changing meanings or adding to them. Just read the Bible simply as it is and you'll see that it is a post-trib rapture. You don't even need extra books for that!

There is no "Rapture" being spoken of (even in "description-form") in Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

What Matt24:29-31 is talking about is Isaiah 27:12-13[,9]... and that ain't "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" but the elect of Israel (the believing remnant of Israel who will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture / Snatch [G726]"--at which "rapture" the entire Church which is His body will be caught up together [in ONE "snatch-action"] AS ONE... not gathered "ONE BY ONE" as Isa27:12-13[,9] / Matt24:29-31 AFTER the GT is speaking to)





[let the readers note that the already-awarded / crowned "24 elders" are sitting on thrones UP THERE, BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of that "future" specific LIMITED time-period we commonly call the Trib]

 

[cv5]

You're over-studying....

Over-studying? How could that be a liability in properly and accurately rendering the whole council of God?
Most people suffer quite the antipodal condition.....

 

[cv5]

Of course Catholics would want to translate that as if apostasy meant a departure from the Catholic Church. However, apostasy by any other name is still apostasy.

But.....the term is not apostasy in English. Apostasy is a near-transliteration of sorts, but the contemporary meaning is different.

The actual definition of the Greek terms into English are THE (definite article) DEPARTURE. Period full stop.