Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[BenFTW]

Paul so clearly states there is no edification unless the mind understands what is being said.

So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 1 Cor 14:9

It is not about the natural/carnal mind, since many born again believers that are born of the spirit know that scripture does not support a private prayer language. There is not one instance where angels appeared to men and they spoke anything but a known language.

My natural mind may be in a fallen state but it does not mean I suspend being rational and discerning!

The gift of language is in and of itself an amazing thing, a God given gift to humans, and that you would use something else that your mind cannot understand is more of the flesh (psychological or emotional) than any believer who uses the words that they know and understand because that believer is not looking for signs and wonders.

You have misrepresented the apostle Paul in that statement.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays,but my mind is unfruitful.

Regardless of your understanding in mind, your spirit is still praying. So edification is still taking place, not of others but self.

16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

Notice "you are giving thanks well enough." VVhether you understand your tongues or not, your spirit is still giving praises to God. Is worship edifying? Is praise edifying? Of course.

 

[UnderGrace]

Nope typed right from the Bible,

verse 9 which precedes verse 14. One verse does not contradict another and verse 9 came first so verse 14 must be understood within that context.

And Paul goes on and says how can any of us say Amen if we do not understand what is said.

You have misrepresented the apostle Paul in that statement.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays,but my mind is unfruitful.

Regardless of your understanding in mind, your spirit is still praying. So edification is still taking place, not of others but self.

16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

Notice "you are giving thanks well enough." VVhether you understand your tongues or not, your spirit is still giving praises to God. Is worship edifying? Is praise edifying? Of course.

 

[jaybird88]

Paul so clearly states there is no edification unless the mind understands what is being said.

So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 1 Cor 14:9

It is not about the natural/carnal mind, since many born again believers that are born of the spirit know that scripture does not support a private prayer language. There is not one instance where angels appeared to men and they spoke anything but a known language.

My natural mind may be in a fallen state but it does not mean I suspend being rational and discerning!

The gift of language is in and of itself an amazing thing, a God given gift to humans, and that you would use something else that your mind cannot understand is more of the flesh (psychological or emotional) than any believer who uses the words that they know and understand because that believer is not looking for signs and wonders.

your exactly right. also everything paul teaches can be confirmed by Jesus and the Hebrew bible. yet we can find no angel language example.
2 Cor 13 1
This will be my third visit to you.(A) “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

the angel language can only be established 1 time, not 2 or 3. if its only mentioned one time maybe we are not understanding that passage as Paul intended.

 

[Cee]

I've shown several times how Scripture supports tongues. You refuse to accept them. And then you puff yourself up against me as the wise one by pronouncing I don't know Scripture.

You say "nothing in 1 Co 14 could lead to any other conclusion that tongues is a human language."

How about Scripture that says NO ONE UNDERSTANDS TONGUES, BUT GOD?

"If you're going to have tongues..." Dangerous ground, buddy. Scripture says don't forbid them. And Paul wants everyone to speak in them. Have you read those? There are plenty of verses that lead to other conclusions if one is willing to accept them. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you ripped 1 Co 14 out of your Bibles the way you treat the entire chapter.

What other Scripture chapters do you completely ignore?

How do you find the bible poisoning the well?

We read out of the bible what God has written. We do not read into the bible what we want it to say. The Holy Spirit as I have shown you despite your protests that it is unrelated to the subject never operates outside of Gods word. Gods word is our authority in all matters Spiritual.

The mysticism and hyper-spirituality of Pentecostals and charismatics is a glaring problem. Tongues if you are going to have them are going to be human languages. Nothing in 1 Cor 14 could lead to any other conclusion. The confusion over tongues in the Pentecostal and charismatic movements as to whether they are languages or ecstatic utterances is clear evidence of the problem. If God is in it then there will not be confusion but order.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

How shall I describe your romantic little tales that depart from reality?

Do tongues in the modern church conform to biblical purposes? Are they for a witness to the unsaved Jews?

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

 

[Cee]

The Bereans received the Word eagerly. That's what made them of noble report. Not skepticism.

Acts 17 10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

so why is it when we check the scriptures like the Jews of Berea we cant find any examples of the angel language?

 

[Cee]

Yep verse 9 to verse 14, how about the ones in between?

Paul's explaining why you don't pray in tongues without an interpreter.

No one can AMEN because they can't agree. That's why you PROPHESY among other believers.

But Paul also says I wish you all would speak in tongues. So Paul ENCOURAGES it.

Nope typed right from the Bible,

verse 9 which precedes verse 14. One verse does not contradict another and verse 9 came first so verse 14 must be understood within that context.

And Paul goes on and says how can any of us say Amen if we do not understand what is said.

 

[RickyZ]

I've shown several times how Scripture supports tongues. You refuse to accept them. And then you puff yourself up against me as the wise one by pronouncing I don't know Scripture.

You say "nothing in 1 Co 14 could lead to any other conclusion that tongues is a human language."

How about Scripture that says NO ONE UNDERSTANDS TONGUES, BUT GOD?

"If you're going to have tongues..." Dangerous ground, buddy. Scripture says don't forbid them. And Paul wants everyone to speak in them. Have you read those? There are plenty of verses that lead to other conclusions if one is willing to accept them. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you ripped 1 Co 14 out of your Bibles the way you treat the entire chapter.

What other Scripture chapters do you completely ignore?

OH! I know I know! Check this!


http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html

 

[UnderGrace]

Cee,

So I'm really not sure what you're arguing with me about here.

By the way I am not arguing with you, we are having a discussion on a point of doctrine.

 

[UnderGrace]

So if you pray out loud, in a assembly of believers, you agree there needs to be an interpreter?

Yep verse 9 to verse 14, how about the ones in between?

Paul's explaining why you don't pray in tongues without an interpreter.

No one can AMEN because they can't agree. That's why you PROPHESY among other believers.

But Paul also says I wish you all would speak in tongues. So Paul ENCOURAGES it.

 

[Cee]

Actually we can.

I've written extensively about this:

When the SPIRIT OF GOD fell on the disciples in Acts 2. They immediately started praising and praying TO Him.

People around them came from all over because of the SOUND. And "every man heard" their own languages.

Why EVERY MAN? Because they were given the gift to interpret tongues. Because of this gift they were able to "hear" what the disciples were praising God for.

The wrong idea that Scripture does not say is that the disciples were preaching to the men in their own language. They were already praising God before the men showed up. And they were extolling God. And the men heard them in their own languages. You'll notice Scripture also clearly says "EVERY MAN" this is because this was a miracle. If you don't think so, go get 100 people and have them all SPEAK in a DIFFERENT language. And then have 3000 PEOPLE all stand around talking. And then see how many of them can actually make out what people are saying.

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues

Acts 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. - Why do you need an interpreter if Acts 2 how it's traditionally believed is true? I'll tell you why because Acts 2 the miracle was in the interpretation as well.

your exactly right. also everything paul teaches can be confirmed by Jesus and the Hebrew bible. yet we can find no angel language example.
2 Cor 13 1
This will be my third visit to you.(A) “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

the angel language can only be established 1 time, not 2 or 3. if its only mentioned one time maybe we are not understanding that passage as Paul intended.

 

[Cee]

Cee,

By the way I am not arguing with you, we are having a discussion on a point of doctrine.

I agree, thank you for posting this.

 

[Cee]

Yes in order for people to be edified. I believe this was a big reason he wrote 1 Co 12-14. They were desiring spiritual gifts, but not pursuing love. And yes, this is still a problem today. Mainly I think because so many are focused on NOT sinning, but they are not focusing on DO love. Spiritual gifts used for LOVE lead us to prophesy as the most desirable when we are with the church.

So if you pray out loud, in a assembly of believers, you agree there needs to be an interpreter?

 

[notuptome]

I've shown several times how Scripture supports tongues. You refuse to accept them. And then you puff yourself up against me as the wise one by pronouncing I don't know Scripture.

You say "nothing in 1 Co 14 could lead to any other conclusion that tongues is a human language."

How about Scripture that says NO ONE UNDERSTANDS TONGUES, BUT GOD?

"If you're going to have tongues..." Dangerous ground, buddy. Scripture says don't forbid them. And Paul wants everyone to speak in them. Have you read those? There are plenty of verses that lead to other conclusions if one is willing to accept them. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you ripped 1 Co 14 out of your Bibles the way you treat the entire chapter.

What other Scripture chapters do you completely ignore?

How about you really cite the scripture and not a paraphrased version. If no one understands then by extension only God would understand. In that case there is no edification to the rest of the folks. Only by impressing a false narrative can you conclude that only God understands makes the tongues an unknowable language.

Why do you accuse me when you ignore context when you read the scriptures. You arrive at a passage with a predetermined conclusion and ignore the truth to support what you want the scriptures to say.

Paul said do not forbid tongues. So no church should say English only or Spanish only but all are welcome in the assembly.

Tongues are not a mystical hyper-spiritual occurrence. Tongues are languages by which men communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes in order for people to be edified. I believe this was a big reason he wrote 1 Co 12-14. They were desiring spiritual gifts, but not pursuing love. And yes, this is still a problem today. Mainly I think because so many are focused on NOT sinning, but they are not focusing on DO love. Spiritual gifts used for LOVE lead us to prophesy as the most desirable when we are with the church.

I would agree on this for sure, more, much more importantly I see that this is what scripture teaches.

 

[Cee]

Maybe you've missed the last 5 posts that I've quoted extensive Scripture. Go read up on those. I'm done quoting Scripture to people who simply ignore them.

"If no one understands then by extension only God would understand"

Yes, exactly.

"Only by impressing a false narrative can you conclude that only God understands makes the tongues an unknowable language."

False narrative seriously?

1. Paul doesn't understand his own tongues.
2. Paul says if you speak in tongues use an interpreter.

Why do you need an interpreter if tongues are the interpreter, Roger?

If tongues are a "knowable language" why does Paul say he would rather prophesy than speak in tongues when he's around people? The issue with "your narrative" is that you forget that Paul is comparing tongues with prophesy. And because your answers don't contain the understanding or desire of prophesy, they can not be completely correct.

Instead of addressing the actual chapter, you bounce around to OT and whatever else to prove your points. But let's get back to the actual chapter at hand...

"Paul said do not forbid tongues. So no church should say English only or Spanish only but all are welcome in the assembly."

No church should say English or Spanish only? What? What kind of multi-language churches do you go to? Are you really suggesting that Paul is saying that we need to have an interpreter of every known language at hand? You think that's why Paul wrote this?

Here's another question for you Roger.

If Paul was talking about known languages, why does Paul say I wish you all would speak in known languages, but especially you would prophesy?

What is the difference between known languages and prophesy Rog? Why does Paul continually compare the two?

Since you say I don't understand 1 Corinthians 14 as well as you do. Please help me out here.

And here's another one for you buddy. Why does Paul say that speaking in tongues (or known languages as you call it) builds themselves up, but NOT other people? That kinda sounds like Paul is saying that tongues is unknowable.

Can you help me interpret this Scripture with your understanding that tongues is knowable?

1 Co 14:4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

How about you really cite the scripture and not a paraphrased version. If no one understands then by extension only God would understand. In that case there is no edification to the rest of the folks. Only by impressing a false narrative can you conclude that only God understands makes the tongues an unknowable language.

Why do you accuse me when you ignore context when you read the scriptures. You arrive at a passage with a predetermined conclusion and ignore the truth to support what you want the scriptures to say.

Paul said do not forbid tongues. So no church should say English only or Spanish only but all are welcome in the assembly.

Tongues are not a mystical hyper-spiritual occurrence. Tongues are languages by which men communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass.

 

[Cee]

Awesome! Now we can get into PROPHESY then! Which is one of the biggest reasons I even participated in this topic, lol. I love tongues don't get me wrong, but prophesy is even more what the church needs!

Prophesy is the connection point between the finished work of God (Spiritual reality) and current understanding of who they are in Christ (current reality). It is seeing people according to the Spirit and also the promises of Scripture. It also provides an experience with the reality of God for believers and unbelievers. It always builds up. It builds us up, stirs us up, and cheers us up.

1 Co 14:3[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

1 Co 14:22 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

I would agree on this for sure, more, much more importantly I see that this is what scripture teaches.

 

[UnderGrace]

Wait wait wait brother,

Just to clarify, you see tongues then as a language that does require an interpreter (which I agree), it is then not a private prayer language or an angelic language or do you believe it is this also?

Awesome! Now we can get into PROPHESY then! Which is one of the biggest reasons I even participated in this topic, lol. I love tongues don't get me wrong, but prophesy is even more what the church needs!

Prophesy is the connection point between the finished work of God (Spiritual reality) and current understanding of who they are in Christ (current reality). It is seeing people according to the Spirit and also the promises of Scripture. It also provides an experience with the reality of God for believers and unbelievers. It always builds up. It builds us up, stirs us up, and cheers us up.

1 Co 14:3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

1 Co 14:22 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

 

[emjcares]

It is a gift that can be used for the edification of others when interpreted and so if someone is sharing a testimony of speaking in tongues with interpretation it lets others know that the Lord can minister to them through this gift. The gift edifies oneself and others, it is varied in its uses. The testimony that glorifies God is that the Lord through the gift spoke to them, spoke to their heart or their current circumstances and that He imparted wisdom and encouragement to them. It can even be prophetic by nature of the Lord speaking.

God has equipped us in many ways, and each ministry is vitally important. Tongues and interpretation is one of those gifts listed in ministries the Lord has put in place. Yes it is listed last (among other ministries), but that is not to denote its importance, or to say its least. Rather it emphasizes order. One does not look at any list in scripture and say the last thing is least, for example in a list of sins. No, it is simply a list, one of order and the function of the body of Christ gathered together.

Ben, thankyou, I understand what you're saying, but my question is NOT, 'How is tongues a gift, or how does the gift edify', my question is more like,' How does one person TELLING another person, quote, 'I speak in tongues' help that other person?

Or let me try it this way, (forgive the slight sarcasm),

Person A: What do you know about tongues?

Person B: Just what it says in the bible.

A: Do you speak in tongues?

B: No.

A: I speak in tongues.

B: Yeah, And? So?

A: Whaddya mean, So?!

B: I mean so what? How does that help me?

A: ?????? I just thought I'd tell you I speak in tongues.

B: Yippee! Let's start a parade.
.

It just seems like that wouldn't help anyone, really.
But I'd really like to know what it's all about.

Maybe if Person A ACTUALLY SPOKE in tongues to person B, and gave her some hidden wisdom from God, or a prophetic utterance, like 'Don't take that flight, the plane will crash', or even 'God wants me to tell you He loves you', and even if it comes out in an unknown tongue, but Person B hears and understands it, THAT, I could see, would be helpful.

But there seems to be alot of people who SAY they speak tongues, but why?

Another believer (saved person) might just get envious, thinking 'gee, that person has some special secret way to communicate with God, and I'm still struggling along just trying to pray for more than 30 seconds before my mind is wandering to the ceiling needing plastering. Maybe God is mad at me for something, or is holding out because He knows I'll just mess it up.'

And an unbeliever (unsaved person) might think, 'Wow, that's weird. Why are you telling me that? Is that supposed to get me to believe in Jesus? Because frankly, I'm not sure you telling me you speak in tongues is going to make me want to believe in Jesus, any more than you telling me you speak North Polian is going to make me want to believe in SantaClaus. Or travel to Antarctica'. (uh, South, I know, Lol)

Do you get what I mean? i.e. Instead of folks who speak in tongues TELLING folks they do, how about those folks actually DOING IT, to the benefit of other people, saved or unsaved alike?

I'm honestly not being snarky, I'm trying to learn, but I obviously have my concerns because of all the controversy surrounding tongues.

I know of no other gift from God that causes so much debate and division.
Except maybe healing.

Healings plural?

And prosperity.

And then there's water baptism.

Or communion.

Oh, and the gift of salvation itself, lol.

Yikes. You know what? Nevermind.
(God bless us everyone)

 

[Cee]

Wait wait wait brother,

Just to clarify, you see tongues then as a language that does require an interpreter (which I agree), it is then not a private prayer language or an angelic language or do you believe it is this also?

Yes, I see it as a private prayer language, which COULD also be an angelic language at times (I'm not 100% on this), I don't know of any other Scripture that calls tongues an angelic language and I'm a little wary of creating theology out of only one Scripture, but either way it builds ourselves up in the Spirit.

Considering I do speak in tongues it's more than a theological doctrine for me. So I'll explain it like this, like Paul my mind doesn't know what I am singing/praying in the Spirit. But as I pray in tongues my heart feels very full and I feel very encouraged in the Lord. When I don't know why I might feel down or anxious, etc. I pray in tongues and it goes away in just a little bit. When I am praising God and English words just don't convey my heart fully - I pray in tongues.

It builds us up in the faith. But here's what's really interesting. I actually believe my spirit is praying all the time. We are called to pray without ceasing, but when I "pray in tongues" it is my spirit giving utterance. So it's not like I'm trying to force out words, it's actually more of a letting go or releasing the "river of words" from my spirit.

Yes, I can control it, I can stop the flow anytime. But it's very interesting to me because I don't try to pray, it's more like I let it flow out. I let the dam loose. And as a test, I used to pray in tongues and read at the same time to see if it was my mind doing it or my spirit. I was able to read perfectly fine while praying in the spirit. Which helped me to conclude like Paul that my mind was unfruitful while praying in the spirit.

 

[Cee]

Your argument is exactly the same one Paul wrote about.

That's why Paul said tongues is not for speaking around other believers unless there is an interpreter.

Ben, thankyou, I understand what you're saying, but my question is NOT, 'How is tongues a gift, or how does the gift edify', my question is more like,' How does one person TELLING another person, quote, 'I speak in tongues' help that other person?

Or let me try it this way, (forgive the slight sarcasm),

Person A: What do you know about tongues?

Person B: Just what it says in the bible.

A: Do you speak in tongues?

B: No.

A: I speak in tongues.

B: Yeah, And? So?

A: Whaddya mean, So?!

B: I mean so what? How does that help me?

A: ?????? I just thought I'd tell you I speak in tongues.

B: Yippee! Let's start a parade.
.

It just seems like that wouldn't help anyone, really.
But I'd really like to know what it's all about.

Maybe if Person A ACTUALLY SPOKE in tongues to person B, and gave her some hidden wisdom from God, or a prophetic utterance, like 'Don't take that flight, the plane will crash', or even 'God wants me to tell you He loves you', and even if it comes out in an unknown tongue, but Person B hears and understands it, THAT, I could see, would be helpful.

But there seems to be alot of people who SAY they speak tongues, but why?

Another believer (saved person) might just get envious, thinking 'gee, that person has some special secret way to communicate with God, and I'm still struggling along just trying to pray for more than 30 seconds before my mind is wandering to the ceiling needing plastering. Maybe God is mad at me for something, or is holding out because He knows I'll just mess it up.'

And an unbeliever (unsaved person) might think, 'Wow, that's weird. Why are you telling me that? Is that supposed to get me to believe in Jesus? Because frankly, I'm not sure you telling me you speak in tongues is going to make me want to believe in Jesus, any more than you telling me you speak North Polian is going to make me want to believe in SantaClaus. Or travel to Antarctica'. (uh, South, I know, Lol)

Do you get what I mean? i.e. Instead of folks who speak in tongues TELLING folks they do, how about those folks actually DOING IT, to the benefit of other people, saved or unsaved alike?

I'm honestly not being snarky, I'm trying to learn, but I obviously have my concerns because of all the controversy surrounding tongues.

I know of no other gift from God that causes so much debate and division.
Except maybe healing.

Healings plural?

And prosperity.

And then there's water baptism.

Or communion.

Oh, and the gift of salvation itself, lol.

Yikes. You know what? Nevermind.
(God bless us everyone)