Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?

  • Yes, all believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will.

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • No, but some believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals sometimes result in miracles

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • No, and collective prayer of the saints and individuals never result in miracles

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#61
Wrong again with your false projections. I have indeed asked God on more than one occasion to alleviate the pain and suffering of others and put it upon me. On more than one occasion those prayers were answered. You’re better off quitting while you’re, well, not ahead.
So, you become their savior by absorbing their condition? Are you Jesus?

Doesn't that give you bragging rights?

By the way, before you criticize my response, I do, in fact, believe that the atonement effects the renewal of all things, and the reversal of the Curse, but it is not fully consummated until Jesus' return, when the effects of the Fall are swallowed up, especially death.

That is why I am amillennial...death is defeated at the resurrection of the just which occurs at the return of Jesus. There is no room for continuing death and misery through a millennium. I Cor 15 says that death is defeated at the resurrection.

There isn't room for a 1000 year period where people still experience death and wickedness. Death is decisively defeated at the coming of Christ, although in a sense it has already been defeated within the elect.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#62
Not a misquote, folks. UnitedWithChrist actually wrote those words and meant them. He wrote those words after I clearly stated I have endured much suffering in my life. The question is, do his words come from a broken heart or an evil one?
I see you didn't quote me in context.

Folks, go back and see the context of my remarks. It will prove the man's deceptive nature.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#63
Let me guess, you’re Catholic.
No, I'm an evangelical Christian.

But, I can read the Bible.

I read it from beginning to end, and not selective quotes by false teachers.

The overall thrust of the Bible is that God uses suffering to conform the believer to the image of Christ.

Start with 1 Peter and read it carefully, if you really want a biblical view of suffering. Throw in James and all of Romans.

The charismatic/Word of Faith position in this regard is a failure of properly understanding the Bible. Their leaders quote selectively to prove their theology, same as the cult leader I followed as a younger Christian.

The difference between me and them is that some never learn their lesson. They keep following their faulty hermeneutic and don't read the Bible as a whole.

I would suggest that anyone believing their theology read the NT, from beginning to end, trying to understand each book in context.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
2,737
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#64
I have asked for healing for various conditions. It is God's sovereign will that they remain unhealed.
And yet you complain with amazing tenacity that such people remain in their state of being. That’s hypocrisy and lack of faith.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
3,039
560
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#65
I have asked for healing for various conditions. It is God's sovereign will that they remain unhealed.

In fact, his glory is displayed more powerful through their weakness.

Do you guys ever think about that? How God takes the weak and those society deems as of less value, and manifests his glory through them more powerfully?

So that there is no boasting?
Do you have kids? When they are sick, is it ever your will that they remained unhealed?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
2,737
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#66
So, you become their savior by absorbing their condition? Are you Jesus?
I didn’t read beyond your above words. Nothing but more angry, false projections. You are indeed angry and yet you name yourself UnitedWithChrist. Talk about a pathetic oxymoron. You’re a demagogue guilty of breaking the 1st Commandment.

To God be the glory that my prayers were answered, and to God be the glory that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and Savior of those who ask Him to be.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#67
A lot of little booklets were released by his ministry, carved out of his sermons. I probably read two of them and one full length book. But I have known a couple of fans, one a Rhema grad, who constantly quoted him.

I remember one of his booklets dealt with death. As I recall he believed everyone had their time. But he thought he gave an example of sone preacher-Wgglesworth I think- who died in his sleep peacefully without suffering illness whis an example of how someone with faith for healing would go.

I never read where he said he was going to 120 or that anyone with enough faith would. He might have expressed a desire to do so. My dad has. I have provably done so too.



What Charismatic believes they do not eventually die? I think I met one woman who believed like that--not a church leader.

Eye glasses can be for eyes adjusting to certain tasks and age adjusts them to see afar off. I have not surveyed or checked all charismatics' mouths for cavities and I do not know how you could verify your claims. I seem to recall Hagin pointing out Wigglesworth had his teeth when he died.

I disagree with some of Hagins teachings, for example His idea that because God was good that He did not cause God to be sick when Yahweh clearly relates in scripture that he put sicknesses upon the Egyptians.


What about the guarantee of healing if elders anoint with oil in the name if the Lord And pray the prayer of faith in James 5?

Pentecostals and Charismatics believe in healing and miracles but there is a variety of beliefs on whether all healing is guaranteed in the atonement.
You disagree with some of Hagin's teachings?

Here's a video of Hagin. Those who are not entrenched in that type of theology can see either foolishness or demon possession, but ultimately false teaching:

 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
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#68
I see you didn't quote me in context.

Folks, go back and see the context of my remarks. It will prove the man's deceptive nature.
Rather than praying that God blesses me and others with love and grace, peace and gentleness, you pray that we endure suffering in order to be blessed.

Your context is quite clear; you’re miserable and want company. A tree is known by its fruit, and your fruit is rotten to the core. If it wasn’t, you would be conversing with love and gentleness, not unmitigated, unsubstantiated anger.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#69
Do you have kids? When they are sick, is it ever your will that they remained unhealed?
I don't have kids, and I'm not God. However, I recognize the fleshly appeal.

You are looking at things from a fleshly perspective, which is the epitome of charismatic theology.

You cannot see how suffering is used by God to conform humans to his image.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#70
Rather than praying that God blesses me and others with love and grace, peace and gentleness, you pray that we endure suffering in order to be blessed. Your context is quite clear; you’re miserable and want company. A tree is known by its fruit, and your fruit is rotten to the core.
There is a season and time for both. I am not claiming God wants the person to suffer all the time.

However, if he does not suffer, he will not recognize the sublime nature of what the gospel has to offer, and his mind will be turned toward the comforts of this life.

In fact, suffering causes the person's evil nature to be exposed. It causes the person to see that their following of God, for the reasons of comfort, pleasure, and selfishness, is a manifestation of their evil nature. It takes faith to follow God in the midst of suffering.

Again, read the Bible. Recognize that ancient Israel's carnality was exposed in the desert wanderings. Difficult times demonstrated their carnal, fleshly nature when they began complaining. They should be able to see the evil within their hearts more clearly in this manner.

So, suffering actually exposes the fallen nature of man, which can lay dormant even within believers, if they never experience suffering.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#71
I didn’t read beyond your above words. Nothing but more angry, false projections. You are indeed angry and yet you name yourself UnitedWithChrist. Talk about a pathetic oxymoron. You’re a demagogue guilty of breaking the 1st Commandment.

To God be the glory that my prayers were answered, and to God be the glory that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and Savior of those who ask Him to be.
demagogue - a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument.

I am not a political leader.

I am expressing convictions that charismatics find hard to deal with. Because they are true.

However, reasoning does very little good with them. Their theology is noted for being attached to emotionalism.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
2,737
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#72
The charismatic/Word of Faith position in this regard is a failure of properly understanding the Bible.
Your failure is that you place too much faith on yourself and your analytical views of Scripture rather than placing your faith squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Faith like a child is what pleases God.

You’re a modern day Pharisee looking down your nose with disgust at everyone who views things differently than you regardless of their faith in Christ. Woah to you for causing stumbling blocks and shutting out the Kingdom of Heaven against others. God is not pleased.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#73
And yet you complain with amazing tenacity that such people remain in their state of being. That’s hypocrisy and lack of faith.
I have no clue what you're saying.

My position is that disabled believers are placed in a "faithless" category by charismatic theology, and this is false.

In fact, Hebrews 11 recounts numerous individuals who suffered yet continued because their focus was on God and not on this life's circumstances.

Charismatic/Word of Faith theology denies this fundamental truth.

Faith is continuing in faithful obedience to God despite such circumstances.

Like I said, employing reason with you guys is hopeless, though.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#74
Your failure is that you place too much faith on yourself and your analytical views of Scripture rather than placing your faith squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Faith like a child is what pleases God.

You’re a modern day Pharisee looking down your nose with disgust at everyone who views things differently than you regardless of their faith in Christ. Woah to you for causing stumbling blocks and shutting out the Kingdom of Heaven against others. God is not pleased.
Translation: I can't answer this guy's arguments, so I am going to accuse him of being a Pharisee. He is correct in that my view is anti-biblical, because the Bible teaches that suffering is a normative part of the life of a true believer, but I don't want to face that, so I won't read the Bible and instead will discount it and promote the idea that his biblical knowledge is worthless.

By the way, faith is trusting God and obeying him regardless of life's circumstances. That is faith.

Faith is trusting God and obeying Him, despite how I feel, because God promises a good result. But this good result may not be realized until the resurrection. In fact, suffering exposes the evil nature of man, because the man's evil thoughts come to the surface when scarcity and pain is experienced. Therefore, God exposes my indwelling sin through such methods.

Charismatics and Word of Faith people simply are shallow believers who focus on this world, rather than the next...assuming they are believers.

Again, read Hebrews 11.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#75
Your failure is that you place too much faith on yourself and your analytical views of Scripture rather than placing your faith squarely on the shoulders of Jesus Christ. Faith like a child is what pleases God.

You’re a modern day Pharisee looking down your nose with disgust at everyone who views things differently than you regardless of their faith in Christ. Woah to you for causing stumbling blocks and shutting out the Kingdom of Heaven against others. God is not pleased.
Translation: I can't answer this guy's arguments, so I am going to accuse him of being a Pharisee. He is correct in that my view is anti-biblical, because the Bible teaches that suffering is a normative part of the life of a true believer, but I don't want to face that, so I won't read the Bible and instead will discount his words and promote the idea that his biblical knowledge is worthless. I'll accuse him of being a close-minded Pharisee, even though the reality is that I'm close-minded and resist his convictions on this issue. I will not acknowledge that God uses suffering to expose my continuing indwelling sinfulness.

By the way, faith is trusting God and obeying him regardless of life's circumstances. Faith is trusting God and obeying Him, despite how I feel, because God promises a good result. But this good result may not be realized until the resurrection.

However part of the good result is that suffering exposes the evil nature of man, because the man's evil thoughts come to the surface when scarcity and pain are experienced. Therefore, God exposes my indwelling sin through such methods.

Charismatics and Word of Faith people simply are shallow believers who focus on this world, rather than the next...assuming they are believers. They cannot comprehend how deprivation works toward producing the righteousness of God, even though multiple Scriptures teach it.

Read Hebrews 11. Add James 1 to that. Read Romans 8:28-30, Hebrews 13. Those are just the easier verses. Reading the entire NT will give you more understanding about the role of suffering within the life of the believer.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#76
Are you able to do all the miracles that Jesus did, including raising himself from the dead?
Even I don't believe Jesus raised himself from the dead!

I do believe Jesus was raised from the dead, by the Spirit of God, however!

Jesus raising himself from the dead? Horse :poop::poop::poop::poop:!
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#77
Even I don't believe Jesus raised himself from the dead!

I do believe Jesus was raised from the dead, by the Spirit of God, however!

Jesus raising himself from the dead? Horse :poop::poop::poop::poop:!
Why didn't you go to the Bible and check out the reference I gave?


John 2:18-22 18 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

See, the problem is that people don't believe the Bible.

And, the other problem is that they don't understand the nature of the Trinity. Jesus didn't cease existing, in terms of one of the three Persons of the Triune God, while he was in the grave.

Scripture teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all participated in the resurrection of Jesus.

And, Jesus raised himself up because the Triune God raised him up.

The Triune God didn't change during the death of Jesus. He has never changed. This is called immutability. God doesn't change.

So, yes, Jesus did raise himself up..and the Father and the Spirit raised him up too.

And..rather than being a bunch of horse dung, it is the truth.

However, truth is apparently a scarce commodity here.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#78
However, truth is apparently a scarce commodity here.
And so, apparently is "discernment!"

What was it Jesus Himself say?
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. :unsure:

So? Who was ACTUALLY doing the speaking out of Christ's mouth? :unsure:

Boggles the mind! Don't it? :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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#79
And so, apparently is "discernment!"

What was it Jesus Himself say?
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. :unsure:

So? Who was ACTUALLY doing the speaking out of Christ's mouth? :unsure:

Boggles the mind! Don't it? :)
Here's the problem:

You ridiculed me for stating that Jesus raised himself up.

I pointed you to the fact that Jesus said it himself in John 2:18-22.

Instead of admitting that you have a defective Christology, and a bad understanding of the Triune God, you come up with some other response.

By the way, I think a defective Christology is the starting point for charismatic/Word of Faith theology. Not that you are either (I don't know), but a defective Christology is the starting point.

So many of those guys think that basically, they are the equivalent of Jesus. In fact, they call themselves "little gods". They have distorted the biblical teaching that man was created in the image of God, in order to exalt themselves. I don't really see how Mormons are much worse than some charismatics and Word of Faith guys.

The Scriptures you mention are talking about the fact that Jesus didn't operate independent from God as man. As man, he did not use his divine prerogatives to accomplish his works, and his teaching came from God.

However, this is not the same as to say that Jesus was the Father.

But, getting back to my original point, you basically said my remark that Jesus raised himself was "excrement". I provided Scripture to prove it. My position is coherent due to the nature of the Triune God.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
9,202
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#80
I haven't read the thread yet, will go back and skim over it at least, but the irony here is that the op is a hyper Calvinist, with shades of extremism far beyond what most Calvinists hold to and he assumes everyone outside of his narrow field of beliefs are wrong

I would not assume to lump all Calvinists together, having now studied this ideology to some extent, but just check out his little additions (tagline) to all his posts such as:

It is my conviction that free-willers worship a Play-doh god that they can emasculate and mold according to their expectations, rather than believing what Scripture teaches about Him, because they find the God of Scripture to be offensive.
I won't bother to point out the rest of the flubberdee lubber he includes in his personal and revealing thought processes (I mean he does warn us at least so that is considerate) but it would behoove folks to read it if they have not to understand the mentality that they are dealing with

It will help to explain the unconstrained vitriol and nonsensical cherry picked method of Bible study adhered to by the hyper Calvinist adherents

and one more thing

they are ALL cessationists so duh....:rolleyes: